I'm an athiest, but i hope that i'm wrong

Started by chickenlover986 pages

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Your assumption seems to be that not believing in a deity is inherently depressing, or that there's more to fear. Personally, I'd fear more from an omnipotent creator who sets arbitrary and vague guidelines for his people to follow and threatens them with eternal damnation for not following them. Quite an ornery small-minded God, if you ask me.

well of course he's ornery, he has no friends, which is why he created people. he sounds like a mischeivious litle man, like say pinocchio creater. except he created a shitload of rules and said if you dont obey ill have satan torture you for eternity. i agree with jason scott lee's character from dogma. id rather not exist than be in hell. not only because im being torture, but because i am mandetorily being forced to obey some ******* i dont believe in.

The big EH, are you still referencing this thread?

Originally posted by DigiMark007

Your assumption seems to be that not believing in a deity is inherently depressing, or that there's more to fear. Personally, I'd fear more from an omnipotent creator who sets arbitrary and vague guidelines for his people to follow and threatens them with eternal damnation for not following them. Quite an ornery small-minded God, if you ask me.

Originally posted by chickenlover98

well of course he's ornery, he has no friends, which is why he created people. he sounds like a mischeivious litle man, like say pinocchio creater. except he created a shitload of rules and said if you dont obey ill have satan torture you for eternity. i agree with jason scott lee's character from dogma. id rather not exist than be in hell. not only because im being torture, but because i am mandetorily being forced to obey some ******* i dont believe in.

DigiMark007, your account of the creator--of what I assume to be the Christian God--does not set "arbitrary and vague guidelines for his people to follow and threatens them with eternal damnation for not following them." Context must have a pretext; its no wonder you left the faith! God has devised guidelines for man to ensure and provide an abundant and joyful life. It is no different than parenting, if you will. If everyone followed the commandments given to men, the world would be completely different. Despite our differences in opinion, I'm sure you can appreciate that point. Jesus summed all the commandments by saying, "Love your neighbor as yourself." And God's guidelines for man are not vague; hence the reason people reject God on that premise alone; and God does not threaten people with eternal damnation. God always sent a prophet to serve warning prior to judgment of any nation in the Old Testament. God gave warining, not threats! God--by His very nature--is holy and righteous; God is a judge--one of many characteristics--and rebellion and sin will not be tolerated. Lord forbid you ever through a party (and established rules for your guests), only to ask persons to leave that could not respect your guidelines. Its your house; you have that right! God is no different, my friend. You may disagree, but the least you could do is speak "accurately" about how the Bible discribes God.

And chickenlover98, God did not create life to "have friends." God created life to share it with Him. If your conviction is that strong, don't ever father children; because your bringing children into the world would have nothing to do with love, but only to serve a means to an end. And hell is not a torture chamber; hell is seperation from God Himself--the source of everything. Hell is a place of contempt, because, in hell, people will know that they have been seperated from all the matters. People in hell get what they wanted all their lives, namely, seperation from God. Seriously, I'm not trying to speak as if I'm the source of all knowledge, but have you really taken the time to study the Bible fairly?

Originally posted by ushomefree
DigiMark007, your account of the creator--of what I assume to be the Christian God--does not set "arbitrary and vague guidelines for his people to follow and threatens them with eternal damnation for not following them." Context must have a pretext; its no wonder you left the faith! God has devised guidelines for man to ensure and provide an abundant and joyful life. It is no different than parenting, if you will. If everyone followed the commandments given to men, the world would be completely different. Despite our differences in opinion, I'm sure you can appreciate that point. Jesus summed all the commandments by saying, "Love your neighbor as yourself." And God's guidelines for man are not vague; hence the reason people reject God on that premise alone; and God does not threaten people with eternal damnation. God always sent a prophet to serve warning prior to judgment of any nation in the Old Testament. God gave warining, not threats! God--by His very nature--is holy and righteous; God is a judge--one of many characteristics--and rebellion and sin will not be tolerated. Lord forbid you ever through a party (and established rules for your guests), only to ask persons to leave that could not respect your guidelines. Its your house; you have that right! God is no different, my friend. You may disagree, but the least you could do is speak "accurately" about how the Bible discribes God. fairly?

You're splitting hairs 😬

I'm not trying to create a big fuss (ha ha ha)! But if we are to discuss topics encompassing theology, let's have a general idea of what we are talking about. Moreoever, let's not speak harshly. Everyone of this forum has things to contribute, but they do it in such poor fashion. I'm not speaking of anyone specifically; I'm making this statement in general. And thanks for the misquote.

Originally posted by maham
Being a believer in Islam,I can say that I do not fear death as much as u cuz I like many other believers of other religions I believe in an afterlife.

THis life simply can't be it.This world is a cruel and there are many ppl who get away with the bad things they do in this life and the injustice they do to others and most of the times,they get away with it.Does that mean those ppl who died bcuz of injustice will never get justice?Will their culprits never be punished?Ofcourse not.N the One who'll punish them is God.

Also,if u don't believe in an afterlife,then ther remains no reason y any1 shud do good n why any1 should refrain from wrongdoing at all.I stop myself from many bad things cuz I know they'll be harmful for me in the Hereafter n do many good things cuz I know I'll be rewarded,if not in this world then the next 1.

That's not the only logical way to prove God's existence.The existence of God is the most logical thing there is.For everything,there has to be a creator n for this universe,which has the most complex things,from microscopic organisms to the gigantic heavenly bodies floating around in space.U can't just say that everything came into being on it's own.u simply can't deny His existence cuz u can't see Him.

All I can say to you is😖top fearing death bud.If u've remained good in ur life,u shouldn't have anything to fear.This life is precious n it is given only once,but that also doesn't mean that u should do something ur creator does not want u to do.

just because this world is unfair isnt reason enough to beleive that there HAS to be ultimate fairness. that wud just be wishful thinking.

and really, if the only reason you do "good" is to expect a rewrad then it isnt "good" is it. its like a job where ur getting paid. real good wud be doing sumthing selflessly. and there are plenty of reasons to be good and not bad in this world even without a hereafter.

as for the god thing, if everything has to be created and god created it. then who created god????? why is god exempted from the idea that everything must be created?

What I meant by humbling oneself delt with commitment to God--in effect to have a relationship with God--instead of living as one wishes without consequence; this has nothing to do with feeling special--to highten ones persona. Such notions are self-imposed, and are often (more times than not) triggered by selfishness and/or pride. I think you are oversimplifying my statements; affirming a transcendent creator and belief in life after death--being a soulish creature--are knowledge that man is inherently born with. Environments and cultural upbringing do not teach such terms; I remember as a child pondering these things, but no one taught me this. It just came naturally, and I think all mankind experiences this mechanism; to what degree depends on the persons evironment and cutural upbringing. The thought of a transcendent creator and life after death--being a soulish creature--was present at birth. How can you deny this?[/size]

atheism does not mean living without thinking of consequences, there are as many good atheists as there are bad atheists. basically, you do not need a reason to be good to others and yourself. atheism as i said before does not have much to do with selfishness and pride, you are merely trying to rationalise spite against atheists and trying to define them as bad selfish people who know that god is true but the only reason they do not beleive in him is due to their ego. that is a complete lie but if you so wish, you can beleive it and feal comfortable in your own little reality. enviornment and upbringing COMPLETELY teach such things, everything from language to the notiona of trinity to jesus dying on the cross to a heaven and hell are taught by society. that is why people in different society beleive in different thigns and the things they beleive in are mostly the same as the society around them. i can deny this because i was taught these concepts and i did not know them before that nor wud have ever guessed. i challenge you to produce people who have never ever heard of christian concepts in their life and yet beleive in all the basics of christianity.


Exactly, but this directly (or indirectly) affirms knowledge in a transcendent creator! People don't get frustrated and/or angry with Santa Claus or the Flying Sphagetti Monster; because mankind, inherently, has no connection to them. They are false.

no it does not, they blame god first and then realise that god is not what he was supposed to be, then they question the idea that well, if god isnt good/fair or watever, because of whats happened to em, then why am i so sure that he is everything else he claimed to be. then they becaomse atheists because they let go of the basic conception of god altogether. ofcourse they still might have hate or anger towards him but that is an emotional responce, not an intellectual one. they do not get afraid of all the other things because they were never taught they existed, if they had, then theyd be afraid of em, just like greeks got angry with their god etc. countless examples.


When people assume belief in a transcendent creator, they are assuming belief in something that surpasses life in the physical realm. Purple unicorns are comprised of testable "physical" attributes. Having belief in purple unicorns--in light of scientific and historical evidence--would be most absurd. Do you see the difference?

not really, invisible purple unicorns also surpass life in the physical realm,, as they do not exist in the physical realm when your looking for them. just like shiva or brahma or zeus or allah or medusah. no difference, they are all untestable hypothesis with no logical evidence to suggest them. and please, do not confuse beleif in mysticism/things that trancend this physical world and christianity, they are two different things.


I respectfully disagree; all man is inherently conscience of a transcendent creator; if someone wishes to be intellectually lazy and ignore what they know naturally--that there is indeed something transcendent of life itself--than that is their choice; but despite what people of this caliber profess, they all know that a transcendent creator exists. That is precisely what I believe there is no such thing as an atheist--just people having a hard time managing the truth. When push comes to shove--namely death--the atheist will face the music. This has happened time and time again. My grandfather professed to be an atheist all his life; but on this death bed, he expressed faith. He was in denial his entire life, but not in this last days.

untrue. no1 is concios of a trancendant creator unless they are told about such things. it has nuthing to do with being intellectually lazy. abd again, you are mixing trancendance with christianity, they are two different things. also, i happen to be one of those people, yet i do not NATURALLY know anything about god especially not of a specifically CHRISTIAN god. that is just a very convenient self delusion. also, the said TRUTH has time and time again been proven to be self contradictory and illogical.

and the last part is disproven propaganda. most atheists do NOT convert at the time of death. maybe your grandfather did but that is irrelevant. no1 said that being an atheist can not be scary just like staying clean of drugs doesnt make life easy. atheists can get scared too of the possibility of dying, they just dont invent delusions to get around the fact.


I became a Christian about 5 years ago. God Himself, science, and history lead me into faith. With all in mind, as I studied, it became apparent, that all atheists ever provided were philospohical arguments, and that lacked persuasive power in the long run. To me, the arguments were fueled by emotion, not evidence.

not true, atheists provide arguments from physical sciences, history, anthropology and logic as WELL as philosophy. infact it is FAITH in god which is fuelled by emotion and lack of evidence.


Aside from this, just to make a general statement about theology: having God incarnate in the flesh to give a living account, then to sacrifice Himself (as to ensure eternal life) was beautiful to me; on a deep level--on that I cannot put my finger on--it filled the void. A void that no on taught me to feel and/or experience. I was born with it, and I think that all man--to whatever degree--is born with these very feelings and experiences that I speak of.

and to some, strapping bombs on themselves and blwoing themselves up in the middle of innocents is beautiful. while to others beleif in wicca is beautiful, it fills many viods. yet, is that true?


That is the human condition, and it is not taught and governed by the environment. Where does that come from? And why is it present? All humans need are food, shelter, and the ability to procreate, right? For so many in the world, these things provide material to survive in life, having nothing to do with "living" life--to feel alive! Are you and I to assume, that we humans--despite our human condition--yearn for nothing?! I find that hard to swallow, and so do atheists.

Check out this thread--a little Q & A--that I opened that questions how humans experience life.

www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-467745-naturalism-v-theism.html [/B]


[/QUOTE]

curiosity is a human condition, yes. so is being egotistical and self deluding to find a comfortable reality. we do yearn for many things, but that does not mean those thigns will happen{like a person whose lost a loved one yearns for the revival of said loved one} . and there are plenty of reasons to beleive that there is MORE, just no reasons to beleive{and reasons infact to NOT beleive} the specific type of MORE set up by most theists and christians. i myself definately beleive that there is sumthing more, i have seen evidence for it, both in the physical world and in so called "philosophy" {a lot of which is really logic and not vague attempts at PROFOUNDNESS}. yet it isnt the MORE that christians talk about.

n thanks, ill check out the question and answers section when i get time.

peace.

Originally posted by ushomefree
And chickenlover98, God did not create life to "have friends." God created life to share it with Him. If your conviction is that strong, don't ever father children; because your bringing children into the world would have nothing to do with love, but only to serve a means to an end. And hell is not a torture chamber; hell is seperation from God Himself--the source of everything. Hell is a place of contempt, because, in hell, people will know that they have been seperated from all the matters. People in hell get what they wanted all their lives, namely, seperation from God. Seriously, I'm not trying to speak as if I'm the source of all knowledge, but have you really taken the time to study the Bible fairly?[/color][/size]

if hell is seperation from god, we're already there *******. and dont preach to me. ESPECIALLY when u use big azz bold lettering for no reason. i see no reason to believe in a god, is a watcher. a doer, maybe id be happier with. i have no time to waste praying to some god who judges you. everyone should be happy at death. (except the crazies). think of god as "big brother" no one likes the government watching you. why is it any different with god? no one likes being judged, or imprisoned. the fact that you choose to be judged when yu could as easily be not is disturbing. have fun with that comparison, because it really is the same thing

Originally posted by leonheartmm
as for the god thing, if everything has to be created and god created it. then who created god????? why is god exempted from the idea that everything must be created?

The questions you presented are fair inquiry; and I will attempt to address them logically. In reading my response, I need you to give me the benefit of the doubt--if only for a moment--and try to internalize my reasoning. First, wrap your mind around the possibility of additional dimensions that we human beings are subjected and governed--dimensions outside of length, width, and space-time. Just like dimensions we human beings inhabit, additional dimensions exhibit characteristics also. In other words, dimension "A" is subjected and governed by different physics than dimension "B." Characteristics in dimension "A" or not possible in dimension "B."

To correlate this analogy into a useful example, let's pretend that dimension "A" is the foundation of a transcendent creator (TC), and dimension "B" is an additional dimension created by the TC at will; if all is true, we must not apply characteristics that apply in dimension "B" to dimension "A." We must note, that dimensions "A" and "B" are fundamentally different as we progress further in this post. The TC (or God) is not subjected and governed by the physics found in dimension "B"--the cosmos, if you will. God is eternal and resides in a different dimension that we human beings. In our dimension, everything--even down to Q-tips--needs a creator. In the dimension that God resides, everything is eternal. If we make the error and "restrict" the dimension in which God resides to our own, than we fall into mathematical absurdity; let me explain.

We have two choices: (1) an eternal transcendent creator exists that created the cosmos at will, or (2) the transcendent creator that created the cosmos required a creator, and the TC that created the TC that created the cosmos required a creator. To get to the core of the issue, if option (2) were correct, the lineage of transcendent creators could be viewed much like a number repeating itself--numbers that we calculate in long division, for example. Utilizing information provided in this analogy, it would be a safe conclusion to hold fast to option (1). Logically, it makes sense, and it does not require a vast stretch of the imagination. Moreover, it is the most simplistic, namely, an eternal God--residing in a fundamentally different dimension--created the cosmos and does not require a creator.

I think this is a simple, but powerful analogy. I could be wrong, but I adhere to option (1). If you disagree, can you at least understand my position, not to mention respect it?

leonheart, dont you love it how many misconceptions ushomefree has with atheism? we dont believe in god so we're evil, we all convert at death. really ushomefree have u ever been friends with an atheist. have you ever had a conversation with them. haveyou walked with one(extreme example coming up) and see a small child being beatin and the atheist just laughs? you honestly think we have no feelings/morals? i pity you

Originally posted by ushomefree
The questions you presented are fair inquiry; and I will attempt to address them logically. In reading my response, I need you to give me the benefit of the doubt--if only for a moment--and try to internalize my reasoning. First, wrap your mind around the possibility of additional dimensions that we human beings are subjected and governed--dimensions outside of length, width, and space-time. Just like dimensions we human beings inhabit, additional dimensions exhibit characteristics also. In other words, dimension "A" is subjected and governed by different physics than dimension "B." Characteristics in dimension "A" or not possible in dimension "B."

To correlate this analogy into a useful example, let's pretend that dimension "A" is the foundation of a transcendent creator (TC), and dimension "B" is an additional dimension created by the TC at will; if all is true, we must not apply characteristics that apply in dimension "B" to dimension "A." We must note, that dimensions "A" and "B" are fundamentally different as we progress further in this post. The TC (or God) is not subjected and governed by the physics found in dimension "B"--the cosmos, if you will. God is eternal and resides in a different dimension that we human beings. In our dimension, everything--even down to Q-tips--needs a creator. In the dimension that God resides, everything is eternal. If we make the error and "restrict" the dimension in which God resides to our own, than we fall into mathematical absurdity; let me explain.

We have two choices: (1) an eternal transcendent creator exists that created the cosmos at will, or (2) the transcendent creator that created the cosmos required a creator, and the TC that created the TC that created the cosmos required a creator. To get to the core of the issue, if option (2) were correct, the lineage of transcendent creators could be viewed much like a number repeating itself--numbers that we calculate in long division, for example. Utilizing information provided in this analogy, it would be a safe conclusion to hold fast to option (1). Logically, it makes sense, and it does not require a vast stretch of the imagination. Moreover, it is the most simplistic, namely, an eternal God--residing in a fundamentally different dimension--created the cosmos and does not require a creator.

I think this is a simple, but powerful analogy. I could be wrong, but I adhere to option (1). If you disagree, can you at least understand my position, not to mention respect it?

hey buddy ive got news for you, the simple answer isnt always the right answer 😱

Originally posted by chickenlover98
leonheart, dont you love it how many misconceptions ushomefree has with atheism? we dont believe in god so we're evil, we all convert at death. really ushomefree have u ever been friends with an atheist. have you ever had a conversation with them. haveyou walked with one(extreme example coming up) and see a small child being beatin and the atheist just laughs? you honestly think we have no feelings/morals? i pity you

One of my best friends--a guy I've known since Middle School--is an atheist; we have a great friendship, and we talk over topics like this all the time. In any case, I have never--absolutely never--claimed that atheists are evil. For one, such as yourself, speaking on issues regarding morality, why do you speak untruths about me?

Originally posted by ushomefree
The questions you presented are fair inquiry; and I will attempt to address them logically. In reading my response, I need you to give me the benefit of the doubt--if only for a moment--and try to internalize my reasoning. First, wrap your mind around the possibility of additional dimensions that we human beings are subjected and governed--dimensions outside of length, width, and space-time. Just like dimensions we human beings inhabit, additional dimensions exhibit characteristics also. In other words, dimension "A" is subjected and governed by different physics than dimension "B." Characteristics in dimension "A" or not possible in dimension "B."

To correlate this analogy into a useful example, let's pretend that dimension "A" is the foundation of a transcendent creator (TC), and dimension "B" is an additional dimension created by the TC at will; if all is true, we must not apply characteristics that apply in dimension "B" to dimension "A." We must note, that dimensions "A" and "B" are fundamentally different as we progress further in this post. The TC (or God) is not subjected and governed by the physics found in dimension "B"--the cosmos, if you will. God is eternal and resides in a different dimension that we human beings. In our dimension, everything--even down to Q-tips--needs a creator. In the dimension that God resides, everything is eternal. If we make the error and "restrict" the dimension in which God resides to our own, than we fall into mathematical absurdity; let me explain.

We have two choices: (1) an eternal transcendent creator exists that created the cosmos at will, or (2) the transcendent creator that created the cosmos required a creator, and the TC that created the TC that created the cosmos required a creator. To get to the core of the issue, if option (2) were correct, the lineage of transcendent creators could be viewed much like a number repeating itself--numbers that we calculate in long division, for example. Utilizing information provided in this analogy, it would be a safe conclusion to hold fast to option (1). Logically, it makes sense, and it does not require a vast stretch of the imagination. Moreover, it is the most simplistic, namely, an eternal God--residing in a fundamentally different dimension--created the cosmos and does not require a creator.

I think this is a simple, but powerful analogy. I could be wrong, but I adhere to option (1). If you disagree, can you at least understand my position, not to mention respect it?

as far as the original analogy i gave goes, you are ignoring sum facts. we can NOT use the argument that all things are created. all we have seen are different already existing things TRANSITIONING, and hence it is just as applicable to say that this existance/universe has ALWAYS been here in some form or another as opposed to having to be created. soi think it is fair to challenge te first cause argument.

as for the analogy you gave above of different dimension, i completely agree. that is possible and not contradictory. however, even at the basis, you are forgetting sumthing. if the trancendant{althoug it isnt fair to call such a being trancendant as he is confined by the dimension he exists in} creator is SO far removed from all the concepts that define OUR lower dimension, then there is no REASON to follow the thinking of this trancendant creator in our dimension. let me give you an example, say this creator is beyond the concepts of creation and destruction, and he chooses complete and utter destruction{soul and all} for our lower dimension. wud it be logical/moral/right to kill ourselves and every1 here PERMANENTLY on his orders???? no it wudnt. please read my views on logical morality and the concepts that define us in other threads here, ull understand.

also, the PROBLEM with using such basic analogies is that god is never claimed to be trancedant in the bible. just all powerful and all knowing. there is a differnece. trancendance can not be confined by definitions but the above two ARE definitions. also, the gods of the bible is VERY human in thinking{i.e. petty thinking, judgement/ego/rules/punishment/reward}, and him giving certain preferrable RULES or laws to begin with starts giving god PREFERENCES, hence taking away from his TRANCENDANCE. also, u might wanna dig up a thread i made a while ago "why did god nead to create ANYTHING AT ALL" this concept is more elaborated on there. the god of the bible doesnt make sense as i said.

Leonheartmm-

I appreciate your respectful post; it is pleasing to see that some people still have the capacity to act like adults. I will respond to your post, but it will have to wait until tomorrow. For me, it is time to sleep. It is almost 2 in the AM. Take care.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Leonheartmm-

I appreciate your respectful post; it is pleasing to see that some people still have the capacity to act like adults. I will respond to your post, but it will have to wait until tomorrow. For me, it is time to sleep. It is almost 2 in the AM. Take care.

funny thing...im not an adult 😕

cut it out both of you. thnx ushom. but im still ur opposition here 😄

Originally posted by DigiMark007

...which I never argued for either. In bringing down one position, it doesn't mean I'm automatically assuming the opposite. That would make me an ID apologist or something.

31

No you didnt but I thought id mention that point anyway.

Originally posted by ushomefree
DigiMark007, your account of the creator--of what I assume to be the Christian God--does not set "arbitrary and vague guidelines for his people to follow and threatens them with eternal damnation for not following them." Context must have a pretext; its no wonder you left the faith!

lulz.

I was a devout Christian for a good long time. I'm well-aware of who their God is. But if this is what it takes for you to understand why I left the faith, you haven't really been reading most of what I write in this forum. If my reasons for leaving were problems with self-made metaphors of God as an angry parent, I'd probably mock myself for such vapid logic.

Originally posted by BackFire
Has nothing to do with "understanding" anything. It's just something you believe. You say "understand" as if there is something legit and substantial to back it up, though you've presented nothing of the sort.

And why is it not possible that you can't arrive to a theistic conclusion through logical thinking? It's completely doable, and again, it's based purely on your subjective perspective, someoneisn't illogical for coming to the conclusion that they feel there is a God. Poor logic can be used to come to either conclusion, and good logic can be used to come to either conclusion.

I understand that if you deeply believe in something, it isn't going to be easy to change that belief, I presented my point improperly in my first post by suggesting such. However, if your beliefs are causing you such discomfort, as they are with the OP, then changing the beliefs so that you can be happy may be something worth considering, or trying, at least.

There's no good or bad logic. I wasn't specific though, I meant that for it to change you would have to change such fundamental axioms of your thinking that, I'd think it would be very hard to do. I agree with Dawkins, for the reasons he names, that atheism is way more likely to our universe and life than a sort of theism, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility. Either way it is not easy to change your fundamental believes. To me, I think, it would be impossible.

Re: Re: Re: I'm an athiest, but i hope that i'm wrong

Originally posted by chickenlover98
there is no rhyme or reason to why things happen. they just do. and there's no devine justice or being waiting at the end. we do what we do, we are what we are.

Funny,ur trying to be logical and yet being the most illogical person.'Things happen cuz ...they just happen.' Right.So much for the 'logical ppl',eh?

Originally posted by chickenlover98
btw I CAN deny his presence because i cant see him, because guess what? thats what LOGICAL people do. i cant see it, smell it, touch it, detect it, or find any proof he/it existed? what does that mean children? IT ISNT THERE.

Have u seen ur brain? Have u smelt it?touched it?tasted it or heard?
Then,'logically',it isn't there.(n I'm damn sure abt that)

Originally posted by chickenlover98
why we should do good or bad? because of A: your morals B😛unishment by your peers or C: a reward for good deeds. if you need a god to do whats "right" then you sir are an empty being.

What morals? How du make a set of deed morals? Just cuz ur parents told u that helpin an old lady cross the road is good,ur gonna do it n name it as one of ur 'morals'.But how du know what's good.How can u separate a group of deeds and mark them as good n some as bad? It was God Who told us what was right n He wanted us to do it n to encourage us,He told us abt the reward otherwise doing good 'logically' has no personal benefits.