Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah hes done it before doesnt mean he will do it again. Furthermoer he doesnt even have to throw it at him, he can use it to get him in any postion he wants like an upgraded Spidermn.The only supêriotty that Beast has is flexibiltiy and HF. The other attributes are marginal and therefore its debatable wether he is superior to Cap in that aspect.
Im not treating him like hes stupid you are blowning things out of proportion. Fighting alongside Cap isnt going to be enough for Beast to stop him. Its not like what Iron Man did where he literailly downloaded all of Caps moves and even then IM didnt do it on the fly he had to actually create a database. Cap is good enough to alter his style.
This absolute rubbish. First of all Beast has two arms and legs its not like he has tentacles, Beast is more flexible than Cap but you really think just because he is more flexible Cap cant anticipate it? Come to think of it I can actually see some forms of martial arts being similar to how beast fights ie Monkey Kung Fu🤨
Cap mastered an alien martial art in one day and defeated a computer that had memorised every single martial on earth but Cap cant antcipate Beats fighting style? Oh yeah Infinity Crusade.
First of all Brubakers thinks he has. Secondly do you know official dont mean **** if it contradicts the comics. If you regard low-level superhuman durabiltiy is getting shot int the head an waking up in hospital hours afterwards and getting beaten up by RS with superhuman strength and having a hous collapse on him, then yeah thats low-level. Quite frankly hes not even that far behind Spidermans durability.
You're not going to give me the "It's Cap. He'll find a way" excuse, are you? The man is not undefeatable. Don't get me wrong, I love Cap. I think he's an awesome character who can kick most opponnents' asses.
But really. If some of his opponents were ACTUALLY fighting him to the fullest of thier abilities, do you still think Cap would win? Iron Man can't defeat Cap? Spider-Man can't defeat Cap? Namor?! Didn't Iron Fist punk him bad?
The thing is, Cap's usual set of enemies don't include people who have all the superhuman abilities, skills, experience, and know-how of Hank McCoy all wrapped into one.
What about him. Cap has beaten older versions of IM I think but not the current one....and?
What part of he studied Spiderman fighting ability and has foguht Spiderman enemies who were not holding back dont you understand?
When has Cap beaten Namor? Do you know what you're talking about.
Basically your just telling us what you think should happen despite the fact decades of comic books contradict what you think. Cap completely pawned Beast in IC but you still think he wins because because....I dunno.
Your not making an effort are you? I dont even think im going to respond to that, why dont you actually think about what you just said.
I really don't know what you want from me. I sit here and I give you my reasons and debate them well, and you ask me if I'm even going to try. 😬
Notice how I didn't say that Cap wouldn't be completely useless to Beast's fighting style? I said that it would be someone new to Cap. Something that he wouldn't be able to immediately anticipate, no matter how good he is. Sure, he'll figure it out eventually, but that doesn't also necessarily mean that he'll be able to defend/counter against it 100%
"The only supêriotty that Beast has is flexibiltiy and HF. The other attributes are marginal and therefore its debatable wether he is superior to Cap in that aspect."
So Cap now has equivalent or superior dexterity than Beast? With his feet? 🤨 Now Cap has equivalent or superior superhuman strength than Beast? 🤨 Come on, man. Think about what you say here. Regardless of how good Cap is (and he is good), Beast DOES have a number of superhuman advantages over him, and I've already listed them. Recognize them. Accept them. I accept that Cap has far superior fighting skills, will, leadership skills, strategic ability, and a nigh-unbreakable shield.
But for now, let's focus on another aspect of your argument: The opponents that Cap has beaten/held his own against/not died from. Let's just focus on two of them.
Iron Man. Do you know all of his abilities? Do you not understand the meaning of CIS (Character-Induced-Stupidity)? Lemme ask you something. Why, oh why, does Iron Man ever fight Cap on the ground, hand-to-hand, on Cap's terms? I do hope you know that if Iron Man wanted to, he could easily destroy Cap in a fight. But for some reason, he always engages him in (rather slow) hand-to-hand combat, allowing Steve to bash him with the shield.
Namor. This is the same guy that has faught the Hulk mulitple times and even defeated him before. Same guy that has fought against both Thor and Hercules as well. And various other super-powered beings. And yet Cap holds his own against him? Albeit, the few times they've tangled, there's usually (but not always) some outside involvement, which tends to be a mind-controlled Namor fighting a normal Cap. But that's really not the point. Namor has dropped Cap pretty easily before. And can do it again if he so felt.
This is a hypothetical match-up here, not what would happen in a comic book. Both Beast and Cap are not going to hold back. They're each going to be fighting to the very best of their ability, utilizing all of their powers/abilities/skills.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
[B]Iron Man. Do you know all of his abilities? Do you not understand the meaning of CIS (Character-Induced-Stupidity)? Lemme ask you something. Why, oh why, does Iron Man ever fight Cap on the ground, hand-to-hand, on Cap's terms? I do hope you know that if Iron Man wanted to, he could easily destroy Cap in a fight. But for some reason, he always engages him in (rather slow) hand-to-hand combat, allowing Steve to bash him with the shield.
[/B]
It would seem like CIS if you didn't look at the context of their relationship prior to Civil War. Its pretty simple, they were best freinds once upon a time. So, Ironman is not about to fly up 300 feet and blast him with repulsor rays until Cap is fried. If they were enemies then yea it would be logical for IM to do that, but they're not so he doesn't.
Originally posted by nimbus006
It would seem like CIS if you didn't look at the context of their relationship prior to Civil War. Its pretty simple, they were best freinds once upon a time. So, Ironman is not about to fly up 300 feet and blast him with repulsor rays until Cap is fried. If they were enemies then yea it would be logical for IM to do that, but they're not so he doesn't.
I know and realize that. That's why I made the distinction between a hypothetical fight and that of a comic book. Know what I mean?
Unless otherwise stated, on KMC forums each opponent fights to his/her fullest ability/potential. This means that friendships and personal morals do not get in the way of the fight.
So, yes. Iron Man would decimate Captain America. As would many of his more vastly super-powered opponents if they actually fought them to the best of their ability.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
I know and realize that. That's why I made the distinction between a hypothetical fight and that of a comic book. Know what I mean?Unless otherwise stated, on KMC forums each opponent fights to his/her fullest ability/potential. This means that friendships and personal morals do not get in the way of the fight.
So, yes. Iron Man would decimate Captain America. As would many of his more vastly super-powered opponents if they actually fought them to the best of their ability.
Of course he would, and i dont think anyone is arguing that fact, at least i hope not. But dont you think its still impressive that he can actually fight h2h to with an opponent who is faster and can attack with vastly superior force (like lift tanks and punch through steel walls), and is pretty skilled in h2h himself, and has a whole database on every move that Captain has ever used. Just because IM doesnt use his flight and ranged attacks when fighting Cap doesnt mean its not a tremendous feat.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Didn't feel the need for change. I mean, why fix something that ain't broken? 😉Proving it without a shadow of a doubt will be a challenge, simply because I don't believe the two have ever had a real, conclusive fight before. And, obviously, Beast has a fraction of the showings that Captain America does.
However. We do know that all this is true--> Beast is:
-Faster, superhuman-level
-More agile superhuman-level
-Superior, superhuman reflexes
-Superior, superhuman strength
-Superhuman flexibility, dexterity, coordination, senses, balance, and endurance
-Genius-level intelligence
-Razor-sharp claws
-An accelerated, superhuman healing factor
-And even a feral side that may prove useful
-Brilliant strategist (not above Cap, but still very useful)
-Highly-skilled, excellent hand-to-hand combatant, both from training from Captain America himself and DECADES of combat training he's received from being an X-Man, employing a unique style of acrobatic combat. While not better than Cap, Beast is obviously no slouch in the martial arts department.Beast can obviously throw down and throw down extremely well when he has to.
All of these he has over Cap save for the last two. Not to mention that he knows Cap very well, and vice versa obviously.
I've given some of my reasons. Now, give me yours.
I agree with all of this. In a fair fight Beast wins 7-8/10.
It'll never happen in the comics though.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
I really don't know what you want from me. I sit here and I give you my reasons and debate them well, and you ask me if I'm even going to try. 😬
Well look its like this I would consider to you to be a "friend" on KMC ie I know you better than most posters and we usually get on. We can debate and even if we disagree we can still be civil. Im not saying this to be rude but I honestly thought your post was dreadful.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Notice how I didn't say that Cap wouldn't be completely useless to Beast's fighting style?
Yeah, im saying that Beast is going to get stomped.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
I said that it would be someone new to Cap. Something that he wouldn't be able to immediately anticipate, no matter how good he is. Sure, he'll figure it out eventually, but that doesn't also necessarily mean that he'll be able to defend/counter against it 100%
Thats completely illogical.
1. Cap has fought alongside Beast and has seen him fight. Sure Beast has seen Cap fight but his tyle is alot more complicated than Beasts. Hell Cap knows at least one alien martial art. The fcat that Tony stark had to downlaod his MA to a computers shows you how compliacted it is
2. Infinity Crusade
3. If Cap an learn an alien martial art in one day, dealing with a style hes seen hundreds of times already is going to be a piece of cake.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
"The only supêriotty that Beast has is flexibiltiy and HF. The other attributes are marginal and therefore its debatable wether he is superior to Cap in that aspect."So Cap now has equivalent or superior dexterity than Beast?
Well considering:
1. That Beast said that Cap was almost as agile as he was. When something is almost it can overlap.
2. Cap kept up with Beast in a workout well not being at his peak.
3. On one ocassion Cap was too fast for Beast to react to him while working out.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
With his feet?
How the hell is that gonna doa anything. furthermore Cap will probably know everything that Beast will do. Infinity Crusade.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
🤨 Now Cap has equivalent or superior superhuman strength than Beast? 🤨 Come on, man. Think about what you say here.
I actually didnt say that, that was me responding to one of your posts where you listed things that Beast was superior to Cap in and strnegth wasnt on that list.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Regardless of how good Cap is (and he is good), Beast DOES have a number of superhuman advantages over him, and I've already listed them. Recognize them. Accept them. I accept that Cap has far superior fighting skills, will, leadership skills, strategic ability, and a nigh-unbreakable shield.
No not really he doesnt really have many advantages. Hes not stonr enough to make a difference, his HF and flexibility arent enough to make a difference. Hes agility, reflexes etc are marginal and are not doing him any favours. Cap greatly exceeds him in MA and strategy.
Hell even Bruce Lee said when two MA are venly matched the one who can feint the best will win, ie the smarter opponent and Cap is smarter than Beast in H2H.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
But for now, let's focus on another aspect of your argument: The opponents that Cap has beaten/held his own against/not died from. Let's just focus on two of them.[B]Iron Man
. Do you know all of his abilities? Do you not understand the meaning of CIS (Character-Induced-Stupidity)? Lemme ask you something. Why, oh why, does Iron Man ever fight Cap on the ground, hand-to-hand, on Cap's terms? I do hope you know that if Iron Man wanted to, he could easily destroy Cap in a fight. But for some reason, he always engages him in (rather slow) hand-to-hand combat, allowing Steve to bash him with the shield.
[/B]
He got decimated by the latest verison of IM whats your point? An older verison of IM tried to use his flight as an advantage it didnt work so IM doesnt always fight Cap on his own terms. In fact I dont even think Caps beaten IM before? Whats your point?
Originally posted by Metalmanx
[B]Namor. This is the same guy that has faught the Hulk mulitple times and even defeated him before. Same guy that has fought against both Thor and Hercules as well. And various other super-powered beings. And yet Cap holds his own against him? [/B]
I think Cap Koing Hulk easily is PIS, but Cap ahs actually been able to survive aganist the Hulk more than once, eventually he'll lose. Cap is only able to put up a bit of fight against Namor thats all he never wins, whats your point?
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Albeit, the few times they've tangled, there's usually (but not always) some outside involvement, which tends to be a mind-controlled Namor fighting a normal Cap. But that's really not the point. Namor has dropped Cap pretty easily before. And can do it again if he so felt.
Cap has only beaten Namor once and he was mind controlled. Namors has beaten Cap many times actually, so you dont have a point.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
This is a hypothetical match-up here, not what would happen in a comic book. Both Beast and Cap are not going to hold back. They're each going to be fighting to the very best of their ability, utilizing all of their powers/abilities/skills.
Yeah and Beast still loses. If he goes furious its going to be even better for Cap because Beast well leave himself wide open. Hell if Cap can give Iron Spiderman hell in H2H Beast aint doing a damn thing.
Again what about Man-Ape? A Class 10 martial artist whos style is based on a Gorilla, when you think about it thats more deadly than Beast. Thats a uinque fighting style as well the guy still lost.
At the end of the day unless Beasts stats are so superior to Cap he loses. The MA always beats the less skilled opponent unless his stats are so high that MA is not enough and in this case it isnt. Cap is a better MA than Makkari but Makkari would stomp Cap. Alot of Beats stats are comparable but Caps vast H2H and strategy are gonna make Beast lose badly.
Originally posted by llagrok
Both Nimbus and metalix are seeing eye to eye here.Just to note it, didn't Iron Man completely destroy Steve in Civil War?
Yes he did, but it was b/c IM had been studying every move Cap had ever used in a fight. He also had that knowledge available to him through a database while he was fighting Cap. Still, Cap took that beating and was ready to keep going.
Note: Beast is nowhere near Ironman in strength or speed.
Originally posted by nimbus006
Yes he did, but it was b/c IM had been studying every move Cap had ever used in a fight. He also had that knowledge available to him through a database while he was fighting Cap. Still, Cap took that beating and was ready to keep going.Note: Beast is nowhere near Ironman in strength or speed.
Like im saying the fact that IM had to keep a databaase on Caps moves shows you how complicated his MA is and also IM is a genuis. I can bet your bottom dollar if IM was gonna face Beast he most likely wouldnt keep a damn thing on a database.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Like im saying the fact that IM had to keep a databaase on Caps moves shows you how complicated his MA is and also IM is a genuis. I can bet your bottom dollar if IM was gonna face Beast he most likely wouldnt keep a damn thing on a database.
If he was going to fight him hand-to-hand I think that, yes, he very well might have one on Beast, actually, as Beast once thrashed Iron Man in a fight (and I think was on the brink of killing him, too).
He wouldn't even need a database on Steve if he just fought him with his actual abilities, aka: IRON MAN abilities.
Just saying.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
If he was going to fight him hand-to-hand I think that, yes, he very well might have one on Beast,
Yeah right he didnt have a database on Spiderman fighting style why would he have one on Beast?
Iron Spiderman >> Beast.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
actually, as Beast once thrashed Iron Man in a fight (and I think was on the brink of killing him, too).
Yeah and I bet that wasnt the latest version was it?
Originally posted by Metalmanx
He wouldn't even need a database on Steve if he just fought him with his actual abilities, aka: IRON MAN abilities.Just saying.
First of all as I stated IM tried using his flight to get an davantage over Cap it didnt work. Secondly it depends on the cirucumstances when IM fights Cap sometimes its in an urban area, IM cant just fly off and blast Cap he has to engage him H2H, and if he trys to blast him Cap can dodge or block it with his shield.
However I think Cap ahs beatne the older version of IM once, but not the later version. Its not illogical for Cap to beat Classic IM.
By the way whats Beats strength level? His bio on marvel database says he can lift atleast 30 tons. Ive read some Astonshing Xmen and Ive seen nothing that would indicate this.
His bio states that he can punch through wall and twist barbells. If this is their justification for this its weak because Cap can do the same.
Originally posted by Alfheim
By the way whats Beats strength level? His bio on marvel database says he can lift atleast 30 tons. Ive read some Astonshing Xmen and Ive seen nothing that would indicate this.His bio states that he can punch through wall and twist barbells. If this is their justification for this its weak because Cap can do the same.
Yea thirty tons seems excessive for anything Beast has been depicted doing.
