Originally posted by JuntaiAlso noting the fact once again, that Max also held Mr. Miracle captive because Brother Eye couldn't deal with New Gods Tech... yet, Brother Eye assimilated the entirety of Apokolips in Countdown. So yeah. Alternate universes sometimes get it wrong. Which is why we don't rely on them as accurate representations of what would happen in proper reality.
Also noting the fact once again, that Max said he couldn't make Superman kill no matter how hard he tried.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0It's been something consistant in Superman's character, however, that even those mind controlling him, can't make him take a life.
Also noting the fact once again, that Max also held Mr. Miracle captive because Brother Eye couldn't deal with New Gods Tech... yet, Brother Eye assimilated the entirety of Apokolips in Countdown. So yeah. Alternate universes sometimes get it wrong. Which is why we don't rely on them as accurate representations of what would happen in proper reality.
We even have a near match to the Max Lord incident...Manchester Black tried the same thing as Max Lord, and Superman didn't kill anyone then either. And Superman saw Lois die in that equation too.
In Hush, Poison Ivy tried to make Superman kill, and simply said "I . . Can't.. . kill. . " and she was amazed. She even reinforced the hold stronger than before and Batman STILL knew he wouldn't. "If he wanted to, Clark could fly over here and squish me into the cement. But I know how he thinks. Even more than Kyrptonite, he's got one big weakness. Deep down Clark is essentially a good person."
I believe there's more examples of this too. Iirc, even one where someone was inside Superman's mind, using his body, and still couldn't kill.
Suggesting he was going to kill Diana is far more of a stretch, that the intepretation in Booster Gold, given the history of the character, and how often this has been tried.
Originally posted by Juntai
It's been something consistant in Superman's character, however, that even those mind controlling him, can't make him take a life.We even have a near match to the Max Lord incident...Manchester Black tried the same thing as Max Lord, and Superman didn't kill anyone then either. And Superman saw Lois die in that equation too.
In Hush, Poison Ivy tried to make Superman kill, and simply said "I . . Can't.. . kill. . " and she was amazed. She even reinforced the hold stronger than before and Batman STILL knew he wouldn't. "If he wanted to, Clark could fly over here and squish me into the cement. But I know how he thinks. Even more than Kyrptonite, he's got one big weakness. Deep down Clark is essentially a good person."
I believe there's more examples of this too. Iirc, even one where someone was inside Superman's mind, using his body, and still couldn't kill.
Suggesting he was going to kill Diana is far more of a stretch, that the intepretation in Booster Gold, given the history of the character, and how often this has been tried.
👆.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I just found this thread ironically. I wasn't even looking for it. I was looking for Secret Invasion #3 discussions since Newsarama is down. What a great issue! I almost never venture outside the vs forum here in KMC. And I don't mean to spark a debate here, but I think there are several obvious flaws in your reasoning, Raoul:1) In 'Countdown to Infinite Crisis,' Maxwell Lord positively states that he could get Superman to kill for him. Up until his death, he never retracts that statement. To use a divergent future timeline's Maxwell Lord as evidence lends credence to your theory. But it's just about arguable. Arguable. Not concrete. We all know alternate universes and divergent timelines are very rarely used as on-panel proof for or against New Earth or 616 Earth stuff. There is no on-panel evidence in proper history which suggests that Maxwell Lord didn't have complete control over Superman. In fact, the events in 'Sacrifice' support that he does and he supports it with his own words under the Lasso of Truth.
2) Superman has had his mind taken over in several different ways. By Circe (magic), by Dracula (hypnosis) and by Eclipso (possession), off the top of my head. He did not fight his way out of any of these. Circe's spell was broken by Wonder Woman, Dracula's hypnosis ended when he bit Superman and inadvertently killed himself and Spectre, at the behest of Shazam, separated Eclipso from Superman. These are all relatively recent. And Maxwell Lord's mental control was different from my examples and your examples in three fundamental ways. It was: 1) subtle; 2) multi-layered; and 3) built up over years. Subtlety is quite the key here. Because in all of your examples, except for Poison Ivy arguably, Superman knew he was being assaulted mentally and actively had a chance to assert his will against the manipulations. He doesn't get that benefit here. So how much more potent is Lord's feat than the examples you and I posted? Well, one simple and direct indication of its potency was Martian Manhunter's utter inability to reverse it.
3) First off, Superman killed both DOS Doomsday and H/P Doomsday. So, if Superman is seeing Doomsday, then yes... his moral stance wouldn't be above trying to kill him. And that was the case here. But just in case you're arguing what I think you're arguing... are you saying that if Superman is not actively trying to kill someone, he isn't actually fighting at his fullest? Which would kinda make sense except for the obvious flaw. As you state, Superman never really tries to kill anybody. Yet, I positively remember you using Superman's fight with Manchester Black as an example of a full-on Superman. But there, he wasn't trying to kill them either. Not in the slightest. So Superman does not need to be actively trying to kill someone in order to fight at his fullest. But if there was anybody who we would try to kill... who would it be most likely? You got it. Doomsday. Especially one that just ripped Lois apart.
Your arguments are reasonable to me. But you: 1) make liberal use of a divergent future timeline's events; 2) do not recognize how mind control has worked in the past and how different Lord's control was in its subtlety; and 3) ignored that Superman has killed Doomsday and doesn't even need to actively kill to fight at his fullest. I do not believe your arguments are conclusive. I continue to believe that Superman was fighting at his fullest in 'Sacrifice.'
👆
Originally posted by Juntai
It's been something consistant in Superman's character, however, that even those mind controlling him, can't make him take a life.We even have a near match to the Max Lord incident...Manchester Black tried the same thing as Max Lord, and Superman didn't kill anyone then either. And Superman saw Lois die in that equation too.
In Hush, Poison Ivy tried to make Superman kill, and simply said "I . . Can't.. . kill. . " and she was amazed. She even reinforced the hold stronger than before and Batman STILL knew he wouldn't. "If he wanted to, Clark could fly over here and squish me into the cement. But I know how he thinks. Even more than Kyrptonite, he's got one big weakness. Deep down Clark is essentially a good person."
I believe there's more examples of this too. Iirc, even one where someone was inside Superman's mind, using his body, and still couldn't kill.
Suggesting he was going to kill Diana is far more of a stretch, that the intepretation in Booster Gold, given the history of the character, and how often this has been tried.
thank you.
Originally posted by Val-E-Doosh
Please. Diana's ass was grass if that fight continued.
Really?... i thought it looked like superman had his throat slit and was lucky to have such a caring friend who held back when he did not.....i think its safe to say the writers disagree with you....but hey who are they 😉
Originally posted by -K-M-
In Booster Gold, Max lord couldn't force Superman to kill anyone.
*cough*
Originally posted by Raoul
Over a year passes, before Booster Gold, still saddened by the loss of his best friend Blue Beetle, decides to change history, and rescue Beetle from the clutches of Maxwell Lord. He succeeds (Booster Gold 6), but changes history, changing it to the effect that Lord isn't killed by Wonder Woman, and using Superman as his puppet (along with an army of omacs), conquers the planet.We do learn, now, that even with his powers honed over many years, that no matter how hard he tries, he is unable to make Superman kill for him (Booster Gold 8).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/sacrifice/BG8MaxcantmakeClarkKill.jpg
Of course, Lord isn't the first being that has attempted to coerce the Man of Steel into committing dirty deeds, there have been many more. One thing, however, remains constant. Superman's ability to resist and fight against the mental onslaught he is under...
ha-som
Originally posted by Juntai
Also noting the fact once again, that Max said he couldn't make Superman kill no matter how hard he tried.
That and the fact that full range heat vision is far hotter than the sun. Supermans hair doesnt even lose its shiny sheen in the sun aand yet he can give himself a shapeup with it.
Meanwhile, diana was shitting bricks just at the idea of being tossed in. Obviously it wasnt full power Hv used on her.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Not on this board...well someone actually did on this board but they don't use KMC anymore. Their evidence being that she made an off hand comment calling Storm, Wolverine 😐 and Colossus "Young People" in her first appearance when conversing with that fossil Leland. Then later on Claremont refers to her as "[b]still youthful" after she was upset that she was stuck in Storms body...clearly that comment was down to either Claremonts inconsistency or Emma's arrogant attitude.BTW Cyclops has seen a Celestial before right? In X-Factor? [/B]
Recently saw the supporters of that "Emma is 40+" myth on CBR and Uncanny X-Men.net boards... nearly made me vomit. Though Exodus knows what I mean since he posted in "Ruby Summers" thread.
