Originally posted by Wild ShadowPossibly tendril whips? He uses those all the time. Even unconsciously. 😐
i am not saying carnage doesnt beat sabe but it isnt a stomp for carnage as a certain poster claims it to be.. if anyone of us were in control of the sym yeah sure we could end the fight easily but we are not cledus is and his personality will have him making bladed weapons and shooting his sym at sabe possibly tendril whips and if he were to manage to wrap sabe.. i can see sabe tearing and ripping his way lose for a while using his claws..
Originally posted by jinzinAre you talking to me? Because I don't recall what you're talking about.
On dumb... fair enough. BTW finally got ahold of that damn ronin issue.. I'm going to go back to that thread when I have a chance just be patient. Though I admit you were right I DID need to go back over that issue.I guess I can see that... But that wasn't quite what I said.
His symbiote will compensate for most types of damage and keep him fighting he's just not going to be tanking through vital shots.I do agree with you that he will use enough of his tendril attacks to either keep Sabretooth's healing factor busy or his hands busy, but Sabretooth also has a stronger acting healing factor that will work at optimum levels even longer than Wolverine's. I don't think Carnage is going to put Creed down before he gets tagged in 1 or 2 vital spots that will put him out but I do think he can stay up long enough to ride the fight out to a stalemate. I just don't see his advantages being enough to justify the win here.
Well, you obviously have a firm belief that a few shots to vitals will end him. What is this belief based on exactly?
Sabretooth is more than capable of tagging him. I have no doubt of that. But I still don't see how your believing a couple of shots to vitals will end the fight = Sabretooth merely stalemates Carnage.
I was reffering to the Gamora thread.
anywho, The belief stems from the fact that blades have a history of successfully bypassing symbiotes, during seperation anxiety a sonic knife successfully killed several symbiotes by bypassing the symbiotes skin, and hitting vital areas, and they stayed dead even after the knife was immediately removed. during the clone era one shot from Scarlet Spiderman put Brock away when he didn't have his symbiote to help him defend himself. Wolverine grounded brock for a couple panels with one shot to the gut... Though the suit can heal wounds, from all appearances it can't do much to help the reactions of the hosts themselves to the pain/damage that's inflicted on them.
Though Venom has also tanked bullets shot through his torso, that's a little suspect seeing how the symbiotes supposed to be and proven many times to be bullet proof.
actually i place sabes hf over sym on average far above them... i recall the sym weakening faster then anything sabe would have from. venom once weakened himself from trying to slow down his fall and using up his sym by making to many web lines.. also it took the sym a long time just to heal eddie's wife. and it has taken eddie days to fully heal from beating and stabs when he was the deadly protector of san fran..
Originally posted by Wild Shadowyeah, that too....
the sym eventually weakens due to the damage it absorbs.. if it shoots to many hard sym projectiles or has to constantly repair and heal cassidy it will run out of itself and weaken..
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Which mirrors Sabretooth's healing factor. Yay.
exactly... that's why I call for a stalemate...
Gotta admit, my first thought on the subject was "carnage wins...easily" but after deciding to play devil's advocate and actually thinking this through from both sides I can't honestly think of a reason to justify that rationale that isn't based on the Carnage>Spiderman/Venom team-up myth. He just hasn't done what's needed to prove as much imo.
Originally posted by jinzinStop calling Ronan, Ronin. 😒
I was reffering to the Gamora thread.anywho, The belief stems from the fact that blades have a history of successfully bypassing symbiotes, during seperation anxiety a sonic knife successfully killed several symbiotes by bypassing the symbiotes skin, and hitting vital areas, and they stayed dead even after the knife was immediately removed. during the clone era one shot from Scarlet Spiderman put Brock away when he didn't have his symbiote to help him defend himself. Wolverine grounded brock for a couple panels with one shot to the gut... Though the suit can heal wounds, from all appearances it can't do much to help the reactions of the hosts themselves to the pain/damage that's inflicted on them.
Though Venom has also tanked bullets shot through his torso, that's a little suspect seeing how the symbiotes supposed to be and proven many times to be bullet proof.
"Sonic blade." Symbiotes have been stabbed, torn apart, etc. They obviously have the capacity to heal their hosts.
This is another example of the symbiotes' capacity to heal their hosts.
Also, Carnage doesn't need to be > Spiderman/Venom to beat Sabretooth. Roughly being equal to Venom is enough.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Stop calling Ronan, Ronin. 😒"Sonic blade." Symbiotes have been stabbed, torn apart, etc. They obviously have the capacity to heal their hosts.
This is another example of the symbiotes' capacity to heal their hosts.
Also, Carnage doesn't need to be > Spiderman/Venom to beat Sabretooth. Roughly being equal to Venom is enough.
I'm illiterate, sue me. hehe
And yeah it was a sonic blade but it's not like the sonic blade killed the symbiote or disabled it from healing the host after the blade was immediately removed. It's just an example of the symbiote being contingent on the hosts satefy, just like those other examples.
And yeah we all know symbiotes sport healing factors for hosts but Shadow's right, they're not at the Creed/Logan level.
And I didn't say Carnage needed to be>Spidey/venom... I'm just saying that my first reaction was under the assumption that he was when I read the title of the thread in spite of that notion being a myth and contrary to comic fact AND what I know, so it's not hard to see why people are giving Carnage the edge so easily here... But the fact is going by fights and feats Carnage ISN'T even at Brocks level. 😬.
the only reason the sym HF looks remotely impressive at times is b/c the damage doesnt always reach its host and the sym stops it by itself able to morph around the objects..
example eddie buffs up in his venom form at certain knifes never reach eddie himself underneath the sym or only receives minor damage easily repairable. it reminds me when johnny GR stabbed venom in the arm and the sym propelled it out.
or when venom takes buck shot or catches the bullet sometimes it simply takes it into itself that doesnt mean it is using its Hf regeneration ability.
cletus doesnt use added mass in his sym so more likely to take more direct damage to the host then venom would have and tax the sym.
^ Damage has reached the hosts and hasn't stopped the symbiote/host from fighting.
Look at Thunderbolts #119 for just one example of the host being run through and the symbiote/host functiioning fine until catastrophic damage is wrought.
Exactly, healing damage only comes into play when the symbiote or the host is damaged in the first place. Most of the time, the symbiote's plain malleable durability blunts any damage caused. And that plain malleable durability doesn't necessitate the use of a healing factor, which I can agree will eventually tax the symbiote.
Not really.
Originally posted by jinzinUnless I'm missing something, sonics do, in fact, inhibit the symbiotes from functioning properly.
And yeah it was a sonic blade but it's not like the sonic blade killed the symbiote or disabled it from healing the host after the blade was immediately removed. It's just an example of the symbiote being contingent on the hosts satefy, just like those other examples.And yeah we all know symbiotes sport healing factors for hosts but Shadow's right, they're not at the Creed/Logan level.
And I didn't say Carnage needed to be>Spidey/venom... I'm just saying that my first reaction was under the assumption that he was when I read the title of the thread in spite of that notion being a myth and contrary to comic fact AND what I know, so it's not hard to see why people are giving Carnage the edge so easily here... But the fact is going by fights and feats Carnage ISN'T even at Brocks level.
Symbiotes' ability to heal damage and blunt damage with durability affords them an advantage that is roughly equal to the mutants' healing factors.
Carnage is roughly Venom's equal. Which is partly evinced by his ability to fight both Venom and Spiderman simultaneously.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not really. Unless I'm missing something, sonics do, in fact, inhibit the symbiotes from functioning properly.Symbiotes' ability to heal damage and blunt damage with durability affords them an advantage that is roughly equal to the mutants' healing factors.
Uh.... yeah sonics inhibit the suits when they're attacking the suit... It's not like the knife continuously attacked the suits after removal. 😕
Just like every time they've been used as soon as the sonic attack stops the suit begins to regen again.
Sabretooth doesn't make much sport of blunt force damage so I'm not sure how you think it affords carnage much in this particular fight.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Carnage is roughly Venom's equal. Which is partly evinced by his ability to fight both Venom and Spiderman simultaneously.
This is exactly what I was talking about, it's the assumption I was operating under as well.. but Carnage only ever showed the ability to moderately hold Spidey and Venom in one appearance before running away, his first appearance. Venom has solo'd him alomst every time they've met since with the exception of thier first fight in the toxin series. Carnage has admitted inferiority to him and Venom... well.. ate carnage... He's not Venom's equal, far from it.
^ Show me Carnage being defeated through impaling or having his throat slashed and I'll entertain the notion that the comparisons are unreasonable.
Originally posted by jinzinI don't recall symbiotes recovering from the disruptive dehabilitation caused by sonics instantly. It damages them greatly.
Uh.... yeah sonics inhibit the suits when they're attacking the suit... It's not like the knife continuously attacked the suits after removal.
Just like every time they've been used as soon as the sonic attack stops the suit begins to regen again.Sabretooth doesn't make much sport of blunt force damage so I'm not sure how you think it affords carnage much in this particular fight.
This is exactly what I was talking about, it's the assumption I was operating under as well.. but Carnage only ever showed the ability to moderately hold Spidey and Venom in one appearance before running away, his first appearance. Venom has solo'd him alomst every time they've met since with the exception of thier first fight in the toxin series. Carnage has admitted inferiority to him and Venom... well.. ate carnage... He's not Venom's equal, far from it.
His malleable durability offers him more than just blunt force durability. Combined with his healing ability, Carnage (like Venom) can stand against opponents who typically resort to winning through evisceration.
Carnage is roughly Venom's equal from their fights. I've seen scans of Venom eating the Carnage symbiote, but I don't know the circumstances behind it. Cletus didn't even fight back, much less even manifest his Carnage form. Brock just grabbed strings of the symbiote that were crawling on Cletus' body and ate them.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Show me Carnage being defeated through impaling or having his throat slashed and I'll entertain the notion that the comparisons are unreasonable. I don't recall symbiotes recovering from the disruptive dehabilitation caused by sonics instantly. It damages them greatly.
And like everytime sonics have been used on symbiotes in combat they reform as soon as the sonics are through, assuming they're not taxed already.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
His malleable durability offers him more than just blunt force durability. Combined with his healing ability, Carnage (like Venom) can stand against opponents who typically resort to winning through evisceration.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Carnage is roughly Venom's equal from their fights. I've seen scans of Venom eating the Carnage symbiote, but I don't know the circumstances behind it. Cletus didn't even fight back, much less even manifest his Carnage form. Brock just grabbed strings of the symbiote that were crawling on Cletus' body and ate them.
in Max, venom was in much worse shape than carnage and Spidey had to save him.
Trial, same deal.
Unleashed, same deal.