Thanos w THOTU vs. The Endless

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree. 👆

When I read the part in bold,
it made me think of the instance where Morpheus shaped an entire reality from the dream of some animal, [a cat I think]. 😂

Well, to be utterly specific, that did require all of the cats to dream of it simultaneously.

I liked that issue though. It played into the whole undercurrent of how the Endless are both the concepts their named after, as well as the antithesis.... like Death is also Life, Destruction is also Creation, Dream is also Reality.

Plus those cats were adorable.

Originally posted by Mindset
Your mom is infinite.

😍

Originally posted by tjcoady
Well, to be utterly specific, that did require all of the cats to dream of it simultaneously.

I liked that issue though. It played into the whole undercurrent of how the Endless are both the concepts their named after, as well as the antithesis.... like Death is also Life, Destruction is also Creation, Dream is also Reality.

Originally posted by tjcoady
Plus those cats were adorable.

AHAHA!! Turns out Thanos isn't bound by destiny!

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1637/other10nk0.jpg

Originally posted by King Kandy
AHAHA!! Turns out Thanos isn't bound by destiny!

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1637/other10nk0.jpg

Hasn't it been said that The Living Tribunal can't see his future either?

Can LT see anyone's future?

Originally posted by Mindset
Can LT see anyone's future?

http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lt2fa1.jpg

N.B. I kinda turned this into a philosophy discussion so read at your own discretion...

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, that's the same understanding of the Marvel Concepts,
they are embodiments of the Concepts they personify/represent (as in ... Are)

I'm not sure if you just aren't expressing yourself well enough but if marvel concepts are embodiments of concepts or represent them then they aren't them. You represent something else, therefore you aren't that something else. Not completely anyway. In DC, they made it seem that the endless ARE the something else. not a representation not an embodiment. Their end would mean an end to all death, dreams, destruction, etc etc.

If Thanos was above all those things then he'd be able to destroy them but since he still seemed to act like an actual person and desired things, he doesn't seem above them. If he was entirely god (and not just the power of god) he technically shouldn't have any of those things. God doesn't exactly "want" anything to happen. We anthropomorphize it as God having a plan and wanting things to happen but thats just cus thats how we understand things. God wants things just as much as a rock wants to be a rock. This probable sounds even more like gobbly gook or whatever than previous posts (which btw made perfect sense to me) but that's just my interpretation.

Having more power doesn't put you above concepts (not representations of concepts, but the concepts themselves as defined by a non-comic dictionary). You'd basically have to be omniscient to do that and abandon any type of "psyche" as we conceive it. Thanos didn't seem to do that. Thanos can obviously destroy the "point of view" of Morpheus and the rest but the concepts are different.
(Although I don't think it's as easy as it seems...Morpheus died because he chose too and we have no info on how Despair died. The Fates were able to hurt him but it was mentioned that a lot of that was because of "rules" Morpheus chose to obey. All we know is that Morpheus is weaker than Lucifer but we can't be sure how strong the other endless are compared to him.)

I'm probably putting my own definition of God into this way too much since the Presence and all that haven't really been shown to be that complicated but Sandman has tended to be more complicated than mainstream comics so discussion of the characters in it demands equal complexity.

Originally posted by Mr Master

In this case,
we have Thanos/HOTI ...
one of several being that can completely erase any and all Concepts,
leaving behind a Void, where there is nothing, absolutely nothing,
not even Time, which "Destiny" needs to arrive at one's destiny.

Without Time, one's "destiny" would take for ever to be reach, no? 🙂

Well if anything is moving/thinking at all that would mean there is some sort of time going on even if it is local to just god and his thoughts. So if thanos is still doing anything some concept of time has to be passing at least for him.

(Time is also one of those things which is just a human conception. If we take the idea of predestination, as seems to be the case in DC, it's pretty much a wrong conception...but we won't go into that unless we have to.)

Originally posted by King Kandy
AHAHA!! Turns out Thanos isn't bound by destiny!

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1637/other10nk0.jpg

omnipotence=infallibility

thanos with the heart was NOT infallible (he was unable to fix the problem WITHOUT resetting everything, he was unaware of his own unconscious desires, there are many other examples of his retaining his emotions), therefore he was NOT omnipotent.

mm, you can scan blitz all you'd like. regardless of what was SAID by characters, what was SHOWN contradicts it.

thanos may have had infinite POWER (though we'll forever disagree with what he DID with it 🙂 ) but he himself was not omnipotent. the concepts we are discussing remained manifested within him.

and kk -- destiny in dc is different from destiny in marvel. destiny, in this case, is manifest in the book which is written by the presence. that's above lt and everything save toaa -- which thanos was NOT. he was a mortal using some of toaa's power. big difference.

Originally posted by leonidas
omnipotence=infallibility

thanos with the heart was NOT infallible (he was unable to fix the problem WITHOUT resetting everything, he was unaware of his own unconscious desires, there are many other examples of his retaining his emotions), therefore he was NOT omnipotent.

mm, you can scan blitz all you'd like. regardless of what was SAID by characters, what was SHOWN contradicts it.

thanos may have had infinite POWER (though we'll forever disagree with what he DID with it 🙂 ) but he himself was not omnipotent. the concepts we are discussing remained manifested within him.

and kk -- destiny in dc is different from destiny in marvel. destiny, in this case, is manifest in the book which is written by the presence. that's above lt and everything save toaa -- which thanos was NOT. he was a mortal using some of toaa's power. big difference.

Are you confusing omnipotence with omniscience my friend?

Omnipotent = Absolute Power
Omniscience = Absolute Knowledge

He may not have had absolute knowledge and understanding, but the one single thing that cannot be debated is that he had absolute power, as stated on panel.

I know the futures that the LT can't see are those of the Infinity Gem holders. Back when the Watch first started, Eternity asked the LT if Thanos could be trusted as guardian of the reality gem. The LT stated he didn't know if any of the Watch could be trusted.

Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
Are you confusing omnipotence with omniscience my friend?

Omnipotent = Absolute Power
Omniscience = Absolute Knowledge

He may not have had absolute knowledge and understanding, but the one single thing that cannot be debated is that he had absolute power, as stated on panel.

with ultimate power, comes ultimate knowledge -- or it could. using his power, thanos could simply will himself to know everything.

that implies he either never bothered to do that (which again suggests he is still subject to his 'mortal' concepts) or his power was NOT infinite. stands to reason that toaa wouldn't give him ALL his power, but that's speculation, as is the stance that he DID have all toaa's power. 🙂

regardless, it's been an interesting discussion. 🙂

Originally posted by celestialdemon
I know the futures that the LT can't see are those of the Infinity Gem holders. Back when the Watch first started, Eternity asked the LT if Thanos could be trusted as guardian of the reality gem. The LT stated he didn't know if any of the Watch could be trusted.

-LT-
"Can any of the Infinity Watch be trusted? This I do not know":

Is LT 'truly' omniscient? Well.... Apparently not. srug

Originally posted by leonidas
with ultimate power, comes ultimate knowledge -- or it could. using his power, thanos could simply will himself to know everything.

that implies he either never bothered to do that (which again suggests he is still subject to his 'mortal' concepts) or his power was NOT infinite. stands to reason that toaa wouldn't give him ALL his power, but that's speculation, as is the stance that he DID have all toaa's power. 🙂

regardless, it's been an interesting discussion. 🙂

I see your point 🙂

But i dont think he could 'will' himself omniscience, or maybe he could? Im not convinced.

Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
I see your point 🙂

But i dont think he could 'will' himself omniscience, or maybe he could? Im not convinced.

your ability to be convinced would be based on your assumption of his power level. if his power truly IS unlimited (which i do not believe) then it is only logical to say that NO feat would be beyond him. (aside from silly paradoxical feats like "could thanos create a rock heavy enough that even he could not lift!" 😂 ) that would include his ability to endow himself with omniscience. 🙂

because i don't think his power was unlimited, i do not think he was omnipotent nor omniscient.

and good find galan. imo, lt would fall squarely in the middle of the pages of destiny's book if such a thing existed in the confines of marvel.

Originally posted by leonidas
your ability to be convinced would be based on your assumption of his power level. if his power truly IS unlimited (which i do not believe) then it is only logical to say that NO feat would be beyond him. (aside from silly paradoxical feats like "could thanos create a rock heavy enough that even he could not lift!" 😂 ) that would include his ability to endow himself with omniscience. 🙂

because i don't think his power was unlimited, i do not think he was omnipotent nor omniscient.

and good find galan. imo, lt would fall squarely in the middle of the pages of destiny's book if such a thing existed in the confines of marvel.

Only thing we have to go by is the evidence stating Thanos had the power of the almighty.
And he certainly wasnt omniscient because he was unaware of the whole manipulation.

The rest is basically speculation wouldnt you agree?

Originally posted by Unnatural-POWER
The rest is basically speculation wouldnt you agree?

absolutely.

but fun to discuss nonetheless. 🙂