Jesus. At least don't let the actual point of my post become lost. I was trying to make a relevant tourney point. 😛
Anyway, I didn't realize the MSN brigade would uhuh me to death for what I can only assume is an unforgivable insult based on the reception. lulz
*requisite fad smilie*
Originally posted by DigiMark007
As someone who did a fair amount of research on the cubes for evangel's crapfest, this is all a bit shocking to me. The cube that Ultimate Reed creates manipulates energy in its various forms, according to Reed's own words. Hell, I could post the scan. Where does it alter reality?Nvrmind, leo posted the scan where he talks about it.
http://img241.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cubeyo8.jpg
It's energy manip. Right?...
Also, gasface to rules over MSN. How are us normal folk supposed to peek in on the convos of you guys who obviously have more time and programs than us? Telepathy shouldn't be a requisite for knowing the rules, nor should some be able to blindside others with rules they were never told about, that may or may not be official.
😬
Bumping for relevance.
Originally posted by illadelph12
Well, personally, I'm opposed to the "wishing" a win. Even if it's not accomplished via direct reality warping it's still an OHKO, which [b]is specifically banned per the rules (the few rules that were actually fleshed out):By interpretation of this rule the proposed use of the Cube by Leo (wishing for a win) would get the gasface (One Hit Kill/Knock Out). The cube may be banned outright for being indefensible, thus being an OHKO implement, even if you wished to use it in 2 moves; I'm assuming we're operating on a "no loopholes" clause.
I'm also opposed to B-Dub's precog prep spying and would have that banned and discarded as well.
I also think the directors (Red and Newjak) need to be more proactive in the definition of these rules. No one likes losing on a technicality that should have been addressed before combat began, and I certainly don't want to determine the outcome of one of the pools on one. At least establish some precedent to work from. [/B]
That rule was let loose too many times- for example, planetarywise kinetic energy steal on superluminal speed also falls under OHKO.
As for rules over MSN. I think it would be good to make them more... public. MSN\ICQ discussion of them sucks a bit especially when results aren't made public- for example, a limit on constructs sent a couple of my tactics to the dustbin- though I think that the limitation is varying on whether the constructs are actually autonomous or not..
Not that I'm lazy- I just live in Eastern Europe and can't afford to go to sleep at 3AM everyday (or participate in discussions that happen late in the evening in American timezones frequently).
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
That rule was let loose too many times- for example, planetarywise kinetic energy steal on superluminal speed also falls under OHKO.As for rules over MSN. I think it would be good to make them more... public. MSN\ICQ discussion of them sucks a bit especially when results aren't made public- for example, a limit on constructs sent a couple of my tactics to the dustbin- though I think that the limitation is varying on whether the constructs are actually autonomous or not..
Not that I'm lazy- I just live in Eastern Europe and can't afford to go to sleep at 3AM everyday (or participate in discussions that happen late in the evening in American timezones frequently).
it's not a case of people choosing to discuss the tourney's inner workings on msn over the forum, its more to do with the problem of getting a question answered on the actual forum, as has been the case for a long time during this tourney...
if i have msn, and cant get an answer on the forum, can you really blame me or anyone else for asking on msn?
Originally posted by illadelph12
Well, personally, I'm opposed to the "wishing" a win. Even if it's not accomplished via direct reality warping it's still an OHKO, which [b]is specifically banned per the rules (the few rules that were actually fleshed out):By interpretation of this rule the proposed use of the Cube by Leo (wishing for a win) would get the gasface (One Hit Kill/Knock Out). [/B]
nope. because the cube could simply BFR them -- perfectly legal, or it could matter transmute them.
digi raised the point as well -- show me a scan where the ult version of the cube used ANY reality manipulation please. thanos restructured the continents which is nothing more than large scale matter manipulation that nate has come close to equalling.
as far as it being indefensible -- bw has already proven the inaccuracy of that statement as he himself claimed he will win with or without the legality coming into question. if HE thinks the cube is defensible, then frankly, it is. he may be proven wrong, but he DOES have a defense for it.
so before anyone calls it illegal, PROVE it DOES have reality warping abilities. cuz all i've ever seen is large scale matter manip, bfr powers and mental abilities -- all of which bw has defenses for.
oh, and i'm not against the use of precog, per se, but it should NOT extend to prep. bw might be able to know once the battle STARTS how things might go from the commencement of the battle, but it most certainly should NOT extend into our prep about which he would know NOTHING until the battle began.
precog is like any power, and it's effects on us shouldn't occur until the beginning of the match. unless someone claims i should be able to bfr him while he's still in prep.
if it DOES extend to prep, (which IS something that should be illegal) i'd like an addendum that allows US to do the same thing.
Originally posted by leonidas
nope. because the cube could simply BFR them -- perfectly legal, or it could matter transmute them.digi raised the point as well -- show me a scan where the ult version of the cube used ANY reality manipulation please. thanos restructured the continents which is nothing more than large scale matter manipulation that nate has come close to equalling.
as far as it being indefensible -- bw has already proven the inaccuracy of that statement as he himself claimed he will win with or without the legality coming into question. if HE thinks the cube is defensible, then frankly, it is. he may be proven wrong, but he DOES have a defense for it.
so before anyone calls it illegal, PROVE it DOES have reality warping abilities. cuz all i've ever seen is large scale matter manip, bfr powers and mental abilities -- all of which bw has defenses for.
Sorry brotha, I'm not following your line of reasoning on this one. The rule specifically states that matter manipulation that results in an OHKO, or simply an OHKO in of itself, is illegal. The Cosmic Cube is essentially the deus ex machina of OHKO abilities thus far in this tournament due to it's indefensibility. The fact that you didn't define exactly how you'd use the Cube to achieve victory, though clever, doesn't override this fact. You simply said you'd "wish" for victory, so we as judges are left to assume that this "wish" is fulfilled in a manner which would result in some legal form of victory out of all of the infinite ways that victory could possibly be achieved? I can't let that slide in my role as an impartial judge.
Also, the rule states BFR Punching is legal, it doesn't say anything in regards to wishing your opponent banished from the battlefield as being legal,. In fact an OHKO BFR could be interpreted as being illegal as well:
8. Matter manipulation is allowed, as well as possession, and BFR punching, so long as it does not result in OHKO. No OHKO’s.
I feel the lack of clear rule definition, as well as rules being discussed in private, resulting in everyone not operating under the same set of rules, has done this tourney a disservice.
Originally posted by illadelph12Well in theory this thing only has two more weeks before it is done and over. This round of match(es), although I never received prep from either Bran or Raoul, then the finals.
Now that I have my net back up at home I could take on a larger role if you'd like Newjak. Perhaps Digi, Jason, you and I can iron some of these issues out.Where is Red, by the way?
The thing I need hammered out is the Cube and prep cause B-Dub is leaving soon.
Then we can hurry up and get this thing over with. 😛
Anyway you can help though with the other stuff would be greatly appreciated.
Originally posted by Newjak
Well in theory this thing only has two more weeks before it is done and over. This round of match(es), although I never received prep from either Bran or Raoul, then the finals.The thing I need hammered out is the Cube and prep cause B-Dub is leaving soon.
Then we can hurry up and get this thing over with. 😛
Anyway you can help though with the other stuff would be greatly appreciated.
i thought i made it clear i wasnt competing anymore... 😛
Originally posted by illadelph12
Sorry brotha, I'm not following your line of reasoning on this one. The rule specifically states that matter manipulation that results in an OHKO, or simply an OHKO in of itself, is illegal. The Cosmic Cube is essentially the deus ex machina of OHKO abilities thus far in this tournament due to it's indefensibility.[/
teleporting for a bfr win IS legal though, as is transmutation for a win. and if the wish is to win, it will be done legally, because otherwise it would be a loss. you're saying the cube is indefensible and so should be viewed differently from say void's ability to bfr via teleporting, or sersi's ability to ohko via transmutation. but those are ALSO indefensible in most cases, yet legal. and again, bw feels it IS defensible. he's NEVER claimed otherwise and gone so far as to say he can win it regardless. so if he doesn't feel it indefensible, why not let him prove it?
The fact that you didn't define exactly how you'd use the Cube to achieve victory, though clever, doesn't override this fact. You simply said you'd "wish" for victory, so we as judges are left to assume that this "wish" is fulfilled in a manner which would result in some legal form of victory out of all of the infinite ways that victory could possibly be achieved? I can't let that slide in my role as an impartial judge.
i actually can't see how you CAN'T let it slide. there is no reality manip implied. the cube itself (and remember this isn't the 616 cube . . .) has never even SHOWN the ability to use use reality manip. so, if i'm not using it, it has never shown it, variations of ohko's ARE legal AND bw doesn't think it indefensible, what exactly is illegal about it?
Also, the rule states BFR Punching is legal, it doesn't say anything in regards to wishing your opponent banished from the battlefield as being legal,. In fact an OHKO BFR could be interpreted as being illegal as well
could be but isn't. and precedent has already been set.
I feel the lack of clear rule definition, as well as rules being discussed in private, resulting in everyone not operating under the same set of rules, has done this tourney a disservice.
i'll certainly not argue that point, but i see no way to justifiably declare the cubes illegal. i don't even need the perfectly legal bfr tactic -- mental subjugation is wholly legal. even if my cube is ruled out for . . . whatever reason, the others could use their OWN cubes to simply take over their minds.
there was NO LIMIT placed on tech though. i am not using reality manipulation. variations of ohko's ARE legal and HAVE been used. not to mention, this whole issue should have been raised MONTHS ago . . .
meh. there's really not much more to say. if the cubes ARE ruled out by others, i'd love to know the exact reason for it. and if one cube is ruled out, are the others??
cubes legal--
cubes illegal--delph
