Fuzzy Hawkeye & Newjak Present: The Magical Mystery Tourney

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
I personally think both items should be disqualified, but only after the match.

BFR and OHKO are both illegal in unavoidable, and reality manipulation is poorly defined as is.

It's been established that the cube isn't reality manip. by any definition of the word. I've brought it up more than once and no one has shown otherwise. And there are characters in the tourney who can BFR and OHK (transmutation comes to mind for at least a few characters)...how is that any different? You can't do the same OHK with them, so why not just place those same limitations on the cube or blair's thing?

I'm not the biggest fan of these things being used either, but it just seems like a double standard, which irks me.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah go ahead and start posting.

I have talked to B-Dub and he seems to be in agreement with this. So the matches will go back and for now the cube and the B-Dub's weapon will be ruled legal. Afterwards that could change but right now go for it guys 😛

Good to know. My above suggestion remains.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah go ahead and start posting.

I have talked to B-Dub and he seems to be in agreement with this. So the matches will go back and for now the cube and the B-Dub's weapon will be ruled legal. Afterwards that could change but right now go for it guys 😛

Wow, you made a decision. Next you'll be using forks... 🙄

😛

Originally posted by Newjak
Afterwards that could change but right now go for it guys 😛

❌

that's what i'm, getting at. EVERY JUDGE has had AMPLE chance to weigh in on the issue NOW. i'm not gonna go through with this unless i KNOW it won't be ruled illegal later on.

if the match is set to continue, then it needs to be under the stipulation that both weapons have been ruled LEGAL. sorry gents, and i'm not trying to be a prick nj, but i'm not putting in the (doubtless) hours it will take to rebut bw's next couple posts only to have my defenses rendered moot because the cube is ruled illegal. 😬

set a deadline if you want for all judges to weigh in by. noon tomorrow? 5:00 tomorrow? whatever. but i'll not proceed until i know the whole thing won't be tossed in the crapper at voting time. 😬

Originally posted by DigiMark007
It's been established that the cube isn't reality manip. by any definition of the word. I've brought it up more than once and no one has shown otherwise. And there are characters in the tourney who can BFR and OHK (transmutation comes to mind for at least a few characters)...how is that any different?

👆

Originally posted by DigiMark007
It's been established that the cube isn't reality manip. by any definition of the word.

"Reality" and "Manipulation", however, are.

re·al·i·ty Audio Help /riˈælɪti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ree-al-i-tee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties for 3, 5–7.
1. the state or quality of being real.
2. resemblance to what is real.
3. a real thing or fact.
4. real things, facts, or events taken as a whole; state of affairs: the reality of the business world; vacationing to escape reality.
5. Philosophy.
a. something that exists independently of ideas concerning it.
b. something that exists independently of all other things and from which all other things derive.
6. something that is real.
7. something that constitutes a real or actual thing, as distinguished from something that is merely apparent.

ma·nip·u·late Audio Help /məˈnɪpyəˌleɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[muh-nip-yuh-leyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -lat·ed, -lat·ing.
1. to manage or influence skillfully, esp. in an unfair manner: to manipulate people's feelings.
2. to handle, manage, or use, esp. with skill, in some process of treatment or performance: to manipulate a large tractor.
3. to adapt or change (accounts, figures, etc.) to suit one's purpose or advantage.

So, by "any definition of the [words]", I can manipulate reality.

Which is exactly why I said that reality manip is poorly defined.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I've brought it up more than once and no one has shown otherwise. And there are characters in the tourney who can BFR and OHK (transmutation comes to mind for at least a few characters)...how is that any different? You can't do the same OHK with them, so why not just place those same limitations on the cube or blair's thing?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'm not the biggest fan of these things being used either, but it just seems like a double standard, which irks me.

If you're referring to a double standard within the tournament, so far it's not been up to Newjak/judges to police the ideas and strategies of the posters unless there's a problem... and a problem has evidently been raised.

Originally posted by Newjak
Ok then guys I'm putting B-dub's match on temporary hold until we get the legality of the Cube taken care of.

I am giving both sides the rest of the day to make their cases. Judges. and I mean all Judges for all matches will cast a vote on it.

So excluding myself that will be five Judges cause I won't vote on it that way there can be no tie..

tomorrow it goes back into action at 7:00 EST.

Per Newjak the others had until 7:00 EST yesterday to chime in, and he's ruled both weapons to be legal today (upon further review). Given the review period is actually past expiration, looks like it's all legal with Newjak himself breaking the tie.

Cubes and Concentrators are legal. 👆

Originally posted by leonidas
❌

that's what i'm, getting at. EVERY JUDGE has had AMPLE chance to weigh in on the issue NOW. i'm not gonna go through with this unless i KNOW it won't be ruled illegal later on.

if the match is set to continue, then it needs to be under the stipulation that both weapons have been ruled LEGAL. sorry gents, and i'm not trying to be a prick nj, but i'm not putting in the (doubtless) hours it will take to rebut bw's next couple posts only to have my defenses rendered moot because the cube is ruled illegal. 😬

set a deadline if you want for all judges to weigh in by. noon tomorrow? 5:00 tomorrow? whatever. but i'll not proceed until i know the whole thing won't be tossed in the crapper at voting time. 😬

We're just doing this cause BW has to leave soon, and thsi way the match gets over with and we can still rule your weapon illegal before the finals. 😛

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
Small point, but "Reality Manipulation" isn't a word.

"Reality" and "Manipulation", however, are.

re·al·i·ty Audio Help /riˈælɪti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ree-al-i-tee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties for 3, 5–7.
1. the state or quality of being real.
2. resemblance to what is real.
3. a real thing or fact.
4. real things, facts, or events taken as a whole; state of affairs: the reality of the business world; vacationing to escape reality.
5. Philosophy.
a. something that exists independently of ideas concerning it.
b. something that exists independently of all other things and from which all other things derive.
6. something that is real.
7. something that constitutes a real or actual thing, as distinguished from something that is merely apparent.

ma·nip·u·late Audio Help /məˈnɪpyəˌleɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[muh-nip-yuh-leyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -lat·ed, -lat·ing.
1. to manage or influence skillfully, esp. in an unfair manner: to manipulate people's feelings.
2. to handle, manage, or use, esp. with skill, in some process of treatment or performance: to manipulate a large tractor.
3. to adapt or change (accounts, figures, etc.) to suit one's purpose or advantage.

So, by "any definition of the [words]", [b]I can manipulate reality.

Which is exactly why I said that reality manip is poorly defined.

This was the first time that the rules were brought up as a defense. The idea is that BFR and OHK are, as I said, unavoidable that rules them illegal. If other posters felt the same way, they should have been more vocal. I can't speak for anybody else.

Fair enough, but I think both items should be banned.

If you're referring to a double standard within the tournament, so far it's not been up to Newjak/judges to police the ideas and strategies of the posters unless there's a problem... and a problem has evidently been raised. [/B]

You're defining it to suit your purposes. Reality manipulation is well-defined in a comic setting as characters who rewrite the rules of reality in order to see their wishes or powers manifest. Mad Jim Jaspers would be an example.

So don't play semantics. Nothing the cube has shown is anything but matter/energy manipulation, by Reed's own admission as well as all of its feats, which other tourney characters can do.

The double standard is when others have the same powers but are allowed. It's really quite simple, and also annoying when tourneys devolve into who can get what banned, when there's usually hypocrisy on someone's end. Everyone knew leo would be building the cube, and there was ample time to bring it up....except it shouldn't work because nothing about it should be illegal.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
You're defining it to suit your purposes. Reality manipulation is well-defined in a comic setting as characters who rewrite the rules of reality in order to see their wishes or powers manifest. Mad Jim Jaspers would be an example.

So don't play semantics. Nothing the cube has shown is anything but matter/energy manipulation, by Reed's own admission as well as all of its feats, which other tourney characters can do.

The double standard is when others have the same powers but are allowed. It's really quite simple, and also annoying when tourneys devolve into who can get what banned, when there's usually hypocrisy on someone's end. Everyone knew leo would be building the cube, and there was ample time to bring it up.

Hmm, but the problem with that definition is that Reality Warping is still the manipulation of matter/energy as matter/energy are one of the building blocks of Reality (besides time, space, and probability). Reality Warpers can make the improbable probable, as can a matter manipulator (take Molecule Man for example).

It's like saying French Fries and Chips (English) are different when their both just fried potatoes.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
You're defining it to suit your purposes. Reality manipulation is well-defined in a comic setting as characters who rewrite the rules of reality in order to see their wishes or powers manifest. Mad Jim Jaspers would be an example.

So don't play semantics. Nothing the cube has shown is anything but matter/energy manipulation, by Reed's own admission as well as all of its feats, which other tourney characters can do.

Reality Manipulation is far from well defined. Even in a comic setting, I can name Low Metas with very limited scope that are labeled reality manipulators. Mad Jim Jaspers is a fantastic example of someone who can rewrite reality's laws, yes, but for the most part we've seen characters who can do nothing more than change the direction of travel of an object be labeled reality manipulators.

And Leo's cube can certainly do that, among other things.

Almost everything that's defined as reality manipulation can be done my manipulating the governing forces such as its kinetic energy and cellular makeup.

That's energy and matter manip right there.

As for any issues with my definitions and semantics... I think I made it clear I was only responding in kind.

And, may I remind you I didn't even want to ban on a charge of reality manipulation, but on the fact that this breaches the "unavoidability" clause.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
The double standard is when others have the same powers but are allowed. It's really quite simple, and also annoying when tourneys devolve into who can get what banned, when there's usually hypocrisy on someone's end. Everyone knew leo would be building the cube, and there was ample time to bring it up....except it shouldn't work because nothing about it should be illegal.

I for one voted for Blair's machine to be banned as well, both preferably after this match so that the match doesn't need a rehaul that Blair doesn't have time for.

And I for one didn't know Leo would be building this cube... I was unaware that this was so obvious. We haven't all studied Ultimate Reed for past tourneys, so please, don't generalize.

I will get at least one post in tonight...I hope. Busy getting things ready.

Originally posted by Newjak
Don't worry it won't be ruled on till after you match with B-Dub is over. So you won't have to worry about it becoming illegal when voting comes around.

👆

I don't mean to generalize Smurph, but when the first post after I picked Reed some months ago was "guys, he's building the cosmic cube with Reed" it's probably safe to assume that it's general knowledge for most. Maybe that wasn't the case with you.

And I'm not sure what ill's attempting to do....say that matter manip = reality manip? It isn't. Not sure how else to say that. Same with Smurph, who is using "reality manip is ill-defined" to label the cube as such. If it's ill-defined, how are you so sure the cube should be banned? And the cube has been established as matter manip with on-panel evidence. I've brought up Firestorm before, and will do so again. Whatever matter manip restrictions exist for him, if any, should exist for the cube as well. Otherwise it's either a double standard, or it's labeling the same power as two different things in order to keep one and get the other banned.

When you manipulate reality, what are you manipulating?

What constitutes reality?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I don't mean to generalize Smurph, but when the first post after I picked Reed some months ago was "guys, he's building the cosmic cube with Reed" it's probably safe to assume that it's general knowledge for most. Maybe that wasn't the case with you.

Also, Leo, I'm on to you. Someone tipped me off that you're trying to build a cosmic cube. Good thing I'm so attentive.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
And I'm not sure what ill's attempting to do....say that matter manip = reality manip? It isn't. Not sure how else to say that. Same with Smurph, who is using "reality manip is ill-defined" to label the cube as such. If it's ill-defined, how are you so sure the cube should be banned? And the cube has been established as matter manip with on-panel evidence. I've brought up Firestorm before, and will do so again. Whatever matter manip restrictions exist for him, if any, should exist for the cube as well. Otherwise it's either a double standard, or it's labeling the same power as two different things in order to keep one and get the other banned.

Simply the fact that it can and is being used to OHKO and BFR, which are both illegal if the method of attack is relatively indefensible.

Originally posted by illadelph12
When you manipulate reality, what are you manipulating?

What constitutes reality?

I was confused about this at one point too. Reality manip. is literally when the rules of reality change to accommodate the power/weapon/etc. Matter manipulation is just rearranging what is already there. It violates no natural laws.

If I said "make a couch appear" and it just poofed into existence with no preceding cause, that's reality manip. If I hardened and bonded atoms together to nigh-instantaneously make a couch, that's matter manip.

The cube is the latter. I posted the scan that states it in no uncertain terms. Firestorm does the same thing. Hell, Black Bolt has some matter manip. feats as well. There may be others I'm forgetting. If rules exist for them, make them for the cube as well. But to ban the cube but leave such characters with no restrictions (or without a ban) is hypocritical.

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
I read up on my opponents! I swear! This isn't blind noobishness!

Also, Leo, I'm on to you. Someone tipped me off that you're trying to build a cosmic cube. Good thing I'm so attentive.

Once again, I'm not trying to ban on a grounds of reality manipulation.

Simply the fact that it can and is being used to OHKO and BFR, which are both illegal if the method of attack is relatively indefensible.

Again, what prevents other characters from the same OHK? Because many are capable of it. If restrictions exist for them, make them for the cube as well, but why ban it outright?

Refer to rule #8.

Also, the "poof" can be achieved by probability alteration as well. They all achieve the same ends, and the couch comes from somewhere.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Refer to rule #8.

Also, the "poof" can be achieved by probability alteration as well.

I'm not sure what probability alteration would be considered. Thankfully, that's not what we're discussing.

As for rule 8, thanks for brining it to my attention, and that makes my point for me. Place those restrictions on the cube.

8. Matter manipulation is allowed, as well as possession, and BFR punching, so long as it does not result in OHKO. No OHKO’s.

So allow it (and Blair's thing) with those restrictions. It's just like any other character with those capabilities, except this is a weapon instead of a character. they aren't banned outright, there's just a limit placed on the usage of these powers.

That's all well and good, but the issue is still Leo's proposed use of the cube, not matter manipulation in of itself. He proposed a vague means of victory ("I wish to win"😉 and presented various undefined, indefensible, means of that being achieved, thus resulting in it getting the gasface (if you'd refer to my original objection). The issue was never Reality Warping versus Matter Manipulation, it was the manner in which Leo used the Cube, which was an OHKO, and the Cube being indefensible, and thus violating rule #8.

Originally posted by Eel O'Brian
Small point, but "Reality Manipulation" isn't a word.

"Reality" and "Manipulation", however, are.

re·al·i·ty Audio Help /riˈælɪti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ree-al-i-tee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties for 3, 5–7.
1. the state or quality of being real.
2. resemblance to what is real.
3. a real thing or fact.
4. real things, facts, or events taken as a whole; state of affairs: the reality of the business world; vacationing to escape reality.
5. Philosophy.
a. something that exists independently of ideas concerning it.
b. something that exists independently of all other things and from which all other things derive.
6. something that is real.
7. something that constitutes a real or actual thing, as distinguished from something that is merely apparent.

ma·nip·u·late Audio Help /məˈnɪpyəˌleɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[muh-nip-yuh-leyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -lat·ed, -lat·ing.
1. to manage or influence skillfully, esp. in an unfair manner: to manipulate people's feelings.
2. to handle, manage, or use, esp. with skill, in some process of treatment or performance: to manipulate a large tractor.
3. to adapt or change (accounts, figures, etc.) to suit one's purpose or advantage.

So, by "any definition of the [words]", [b]I can manipulate reality.

Which is exactly why I said that reality manip is poorly defined.

This was the first time that the rules were brought up as a defense. The idea is that BFR and OHK are, as I said, unavoidable that rules them illegal. If other posters felt the same way, they should have been more vocal. I can't speak for anybody else.

Fair enough, but I think both items should be banned.

If you're referring to a double standard within the tournament, so far it's not been up to Newjak/judges to police the ideas and strategies of the posters unless there's a problem... and a problem has evidently been raised. [/B]

smart-arse...