Originally posted by Badabing
I honestly don't see how a total ban on the cube is fair. The way the tourny is set up gives everybody a chance to mesh and upgrade. I'm voting against a total ban. I would be okay for keeping the power within stated parameters of the tourny.
👆
Originally posted by illadelph12
That's all well and good, but the issue is still Leo's proposed use of the cube, not matter manipulation in of itself. He proposed a vague means of victory ("I wish to win"😉 and presented various undefined, indefensible, means of that being achieved, thus resulting in it getting the gasface (if you'd refer to my original objection). The issue was never Reality Warping versus Matter Manipulation, it was the manner in which Leo used the Cube, which was an OHKO, and the Cube being indefensible, and thus violating rule #8.
K, if it's about usage instead of the cube itself, then why did you vote to ban the cube? You're contradicting your own decision now.
...
And as for leo's use of it, I'm not a judge for this particular match and have only perused the posts briefly. I'm speaking about the cube itself, which should surely be allowed.
Contradictory?
How am I contradicting my argument? The Cube in of itself is an indefensible implement and the method of attack proposed by Leo was an OHKO, both of which, per the rules, are illegal. That has been my contention from the very beginning:
1) OHKO (Rule #8)
Leonidas:and what is the ultimate wish of ANY character competing in a kmc battle or tournament . . .?
BATTLE
TO WIN! why do they want to win so badly? because winning ensures (and this fact was CONFIRMED by nj) the fulfillment of their heart's desire -- ie -- they want nothing more than to win.
emperor speed enters the battle, and, thinking faster than anyone who is NOT savitar or wally west can, he thinks WIN
the cube does the rest and fulfills my wish in any of an infinite number of ways:
perhaps it instantly removes all their powers.
perhaps it freezes them permanently in time.
perhaps it simply bfr's them to a place even spartan can't port back from, some alternate dimension.
perhaps it simply makes them bow down to us and acknowledge us as winners.
perhaps it just kills all of them, or ko's them.
who knows. who cares. pick the ending you like best. if you're bored judges, make up your OWN ending.
2) Indefensible implement (unblockable, instantaneous, matter/energy conversion, along with time and space manipulation, violating rule #8).
You may need to read the actual thread to see where my objections are coming from Digi. I don't mind you going to bat for Leo, he is the homie, but he himself stated that he wished for victory and the Cube's fulfilled the wish. That's a violation of Rule #8 (an indefensible OHKO), and there's really no way to make the Cubes any less indefensible given their nature (they grant essential Godhood, as stated on panel, and reiterated by Leo himself). This line of argument is completely fruitless.
Firestorm could transmute someone into a duck. That's a OHK by the same means. But we're not banning him, just placing the rule #8 restrictions on him. Also, if something produces enough energy to kill someone with one hit, is it a OHK or just a powerful energy attack? Should the user be required to "amp it down" so that it takes two hits to kill them? No limit was set on amping, so an "it's too powerful" argument shouldn't work.
You want to ban the entire cube when the same restrictions should apply. If you have problems with leo's implementation of it, that's a different matter. But to ban it entirely is to create a blatant double-standard for those who can do the same via other means. It's also a double-standard toward Blair, whose own mega-weapon OHK hasn't been addressed at all by you, nor have you voted to ban it along with the cube.
At least be consistent. To reiterate, I vote for both, so long as such restrictions apply.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Firestorm could transmute someone into a duck. That's a OHK by the same means. But we're not banning him, just placing the rule #8 restrictions on him.You want to ban the entire cube when the same restrictions should apply. If you have problems with leo's implementation of it, that's a different matter. But to ban it entirely is to create a blatant double-standard for those who can do the same via other means. It's also a double-standard toward Blair, whose own mega-weapon OHK hasn't been addressed at all by you, nor have you voted to ban it along with the cube.
I wasn't part of the selection process, the rule creation process (obviously), or the drafting process, I was brought in as a judge man. Talk to Red and Newjak about Firestorm or the other matter transmuters (I mean, Sersi, come on now) and their degree of "Godhood" in matter/energy manipulation. I am just enforcing the rules, and per the rules, the Cube is an indefensible implement (unless we're to assume ineptitude in it's use), and Leo's proposed use of it was also illegal (Rule #8). The directors of this thing needed to step in at the onset and establish better definitions so these conflicts would have already been addressed.
And B-Dub's weapon is, well...
I'm not at liberty to say at this point because the battle is still on, but it's far from an indefensible OHKO.
My issue was never with leo's use of it (which is separate) but the cube itself. There isn't a limit on amping, so it should be allowed within the same parameters as other characters concerning matter manip. The cube has yet to display universal-level feats (or even galactic) so it's far from indefensible in and of itself.
The Cube subjugated and enslaved all of the super powered beings on Ultimate Earth, flash transmuted Thor into a tree, reconfigured the alignment of the land of the Earth, opened a temporal corridor to 30,000 years in the past, etc., etc, and on top of that, Reed was able to undo all of that in 3 moves. The only method of defeat was for Thanos to defeat himself. He was essentially omnipotent until Reed lifted the failsafe.
Come on bruh.
hmm, my only problem with ill's stance regarding the OHKO is that it HAS been implemented on at least 2 occasions already, and in at least one case he was the judge for it.
when it was 2-1 (me v bw and cdb) bw teleported my entire team (and bw himslef recently questioned the number of people one could bfr . . .) into the neutralizing room for the win. my WHOLE team, bfr'd to a place we could not possibly return from.
by rule, that is illegal. 😬
likewise, i OH bfr'd bw's whole team into aquarian's null field -- again, he could not return under his own power. also, by strict definition of the rule, illegal. i've stolen speed and won a match that way. also technically a OHKO.
all that is to say the rules have been . . . less than scrutinized to this degree throughout the whole tournament. red left things PURPOSELY vague, i think to allow for creativity and to allow the participants to decide the matches. that type of stance has postives and negatives. as a competitor, it's a lot of fun trying to come up with and prove these wacky schemes, but it also opens up the door to "what is too much"?
personally, i've had a blast in this tournament -- the most fun i've had in any event, actually. i just wanted to be sure this match was judged on merits of the debate, and not on what have been a set of ill-defined and fluid rules.
oh, and ill -- indefensibilty is kind of subjective. just because YOU can or can't find a way to defend something, doesn't mean others can or can't. 😬
bw wanted the cube banned NOT on the basis of indefensible OHKO (again, he was completely confident in his ability to defend against the cubes) but on the basis of REALITY MANIPULATION. YOU raised the indefensibility argument, NOT bw. perhaps there IS a way to defend against it -- and you simply haven't thought of it. or perhaps it WOULD have been defensible if i hadn't (luckily) amped it with SF energy which might ensure it works BEFORE the drain. maybe bw just chose the wrong approach -- with a year and with access to black box's powers he HIMSELF could have created a cube! given his guys and a year of prep it is entirely plausible he could have come up with a means of defending a cube he even seemed to KNOW i would be fielding.
all's i'm saying is what is indefensible to one, may not be indefensible to another. which is why i thought so vehemently that this match should be decided on the merits of the debate, and not on what ONE judge (no offense my friend) 'thinks' is or is not indefensible.
Originally posted by illadelph12
😆It's just a good exchange between peers. No animosity whatsoever. Intelligent people disagree at times.
Agreed.
😉
And despite the cube's impressive power, I'll remind you again that there's no limit to amping in the tourney. Power-wise, it doesn't matter how insanely powerful it is, so long as the restrictions are adhered to (like rule #8).
Leo also rightly mentioned that the issue was reality manip. which has been thoroughly debunked. The indefensible argument was your thing, not the participants' problem with it, and is subjective by nature anyway.
Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, my only problem with ill's stance regarding the OHKO is that it HAS been implemented on at least 2 occasions already, and in at least one case he was the judge for it.when it was 2-1 (me v bw and cdb) bw teleported my entire team (and bw himslef recently questioned the number of people one could bfr . . .) into the neutralizing room for the win. my WHOLE team, bfr'd to a place we could not possibly return from.
by rule, that is illegal. 😬
likewise, i OH bfr'd bw's whole team into aquarian's null field -- again, he could not return under his own power. also, by strict definition of the rule, illegal. i've stolen speed and won a match that way. also technically a OHKO.
all that is to say the rules have been . . . less than scrutinized to this degree throughout the whole tournament. red left things PURPOSELY vague, i think to allow for creativity and to allow the participants to decide the matches. that type of stance has postives and negatives. as a competitor, it's a lot of fun trying to come up with and prove these wacky schemes, but it also opens up the door to "what is too much"?
personally, i've had a blast in this tournament -- the most fun i've had in any event, actually. i just wanted to be sure this match was judged on merits of the debate, and not on what have been a set of ill-defined and fluid rules.
Well, in regards to that (B-Dub teleporting you), he didn't remove you from the battlefield, he placed you at a different position within the battlefield, hence my letting it ride. If he'd teleported you to the Sun or Planets core or into a wall or something I'd have called shenanigans and given the gasface to that as well. I've never been told or briefed on a teleportation limit other than the no OHKO/Dismemberment(Blink Style)/BFR.
As to the number of people being teleported rule, that is something between Red & B-Dub that the rest of us weren't given a heads up on (assuming it was ever discussed. There's no telling considering how things have been established rule-wise).
For me, it wasn't that he could or couldn't avoid it (which he could); I was really just surprised he didn't just port himself out given his Speed Force abilities and tech based teleportation. Leo could have just teleported himself out of the basement in the split picosecond he’d arrived, before the power drain emitter there had any effect on himself or his teammates, but he never stated he would and pretty much just relied on the vibranium emitters and nullifiers his team was using as a method of attack. That seemed like the apparent counter.