Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Hey, I was told I couldn't use power transference during prep.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Hey, I was told I couldn't use power transference during prep.
If I can't then I'll just establish a tp link and build them anyway. All he needs is an image of it, not detailed instructions.
But I was unaware of that rule. I'll adjust my strategy if that's the case.
Also, I bought Power Boost so if what I'm doing is a power boost, I'm covered.
Ok I have a question about the Doctor because I've never really followed the Authority. Doesn't pretty much ALL of the Doctor's abilities fall under the category of "reality manipulation"? I mean I know Digi's just using him for inorganic matter transmutation, but isn't that just a specific use of Reality Manipulation for him? I mean Zoom's time manipulation is manifested as speed, but doesn't it still qualify as time manipulation(and thus needs be bought as such) for tourney purposes?
If my reasoning or info on the Doctor's off then please forgive me, I just thought I'd seek clarification on it because like I said I know virtually nothing about the Authority...
Originally posted by darthgoober
Ok I have a question about the Doctor because I've never really followed the Authority. Doesn't pretty much ALL of the Doctor's abilities fall under the category of "reality manipulation"? I mean I know Digi's just using him for inorganic matter transmutation, but isn't that just a specific use of Reality Manipulation for him? I mean Zoom's time manipulation is manifested as speed, but doesn't it still qualify as time manipulation(and thus needs be bought as such) for tourney purposes?If my reasoning or info on the Doctor's off then please forgive me, I just thought I'd seek clarification on it because like I said I know virtually nothing about the Authority...
I'm not really sure what the distinction is between matter manipulation and reality manipulation. Seriously, what's the difference? Changing ships into flowers is matter manip, building tech from rocks, buildings, and street is matter manip, but then what is reality manip?
In any case, the Doctor alters matter at least at the molecular level (smaller than that, depending on the writer), and they answer to his thoughts and are powered by whatever "magic" is in the Wildstorm universe....but he himself has said it's not really magic, it's just change. Anything from telepathy to size alteration to matter manip is just a shift in matter/energy. Nothing he does in the "reality altering" department is anything more exotic than any of the scans goober posted for Surfer when he was justifying his creation of dupes, or many of the things Firestorm has done.
The respect thread has most of his feats, though occasionally some narrative is left out that might explain it better. But between my explanation and the scans you should be able to get a pretty good idea.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
I'm not really sure what the distinction is between matter manipulation and reality manipulation. Seriously, what's the difference? Changing ships into flowers is matter manip, building tech from rocks, buildings, and street is matter manip, but then what is reality manip?In any case, the Doctor alters matter at least at the molecular level (smaller than that, depending on the writer), and they answer to his thoughts and are powered by whatever "magic" is in the Wildstorm universe....but he himself has said it's not really magic, it's just change. Anything from telepathy to size alteration to matter manip is just a shift in matter/energy. Nothing he does in the "reality altering" department is anything more exotic than any of the scans goober posted for Surfer when he was justifying his creation of dupes, or many of the things Firestorm has done.
The respect thread has most of his feats, though occasionally some narrative is left out that might explain it better. But between my explanation and the scans you should be able to get a pretty good idea.
I'm honestly not trying to sabotage you Digi, it's just that I've been asking around and from what I've heard EVERYTHING the Doctor does is Reality Manipulation on some level because that's his "thing", he manipulates Reality. So IF that's true it's really not any different than someone drafting Proteus and then just limiting his RM....
And don't get me wrong, if it turns out that the Doctor's inorganic matter manipulation springs from any source other than RM I have zero problem with him what so ever, I'm just trying to find out for certain that it IS inorganic matter manipulation and not Reality Manipulation(which is barred unless it's bought).
Originally posted by darthgoober
I know it's kind of a fine line, but basically the difference is that with matter manipulation you can change the form of a particular thing and with Reality Manipulation you can change the very nature of a thing. And to my knowledge, no simple matter manipulator's ever been able to "undo" reality manipulation, it takes another reality manipulator to do that. From the outside it may seem to be no different from the matter manipulation, but then again from the outside Zoom's "speed" is no different than the Flash's.I'm honestly not trying to sabotage you Digi, it's just that I've been asking around and from what I've heard EVERYTHING the Doctor does is Reality Manipulation on some level because that's his "thing", he manipulates Reality. So IF that's true it's really not any different than someone drafting Proteus and then just limiting his RM....
And don't get me wrong, if it turns out that the Doctor's inorganic matter manipulation springs from any source other than RM I have zero problem with him what so ever, I'm just trying to find out for certain that it IS inorganic matter manipulation and not Reality Manipulation(which is barred unless it's bought).
Changing one element to another isn't "changing the very nature of thing" then? Or changing octopus chunks to a spring rain (a Doctor feat)? Which is something a few of us can do (yourself included).
If it's a matter of counter-control, I'd fully imagine that anything The Doctor makes, FS or Surfer could undo just as easily (or vice versa). The distinction still seems murky to me, that's all, and you could probably call Doctor's powers reality manip but then you'd have to classify a LOT of people in the tourney a reality manipulators.
I understand that you're just looking for clarification, but the onus would be on someone else to show why he does things in a different manner than Strange, or Surfer, or FS, etc. Certainly the power source and methods are different, but the end result is the same.
Everyone knew who the Doctor was (though apparently your personal knowledge is a bit limited). He's not really an obscure pick anymore, and his powers are well-documented. It really shouldn't be an issue. He's just a top-shelf matter manipulator with some tk and psi powers.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Changing one element to another isn't "changing the very nature of thing" then? Or changing octopus chunks to a spring rain (a Doctor feat)? Which is something a few of us can do (yourself included).
Originally posted by DigiMark007
If it's a matter of counter-control, I'd fully imagine that anything The Doctor makes, FS or Surfer could undo just as easily (or vice versa). The distinction still seems murky to me, that's all,
For instance if Sersi changed lead into gold, Surfer could change it back no problem. But if Doctor changed the lead into a cartoon to something like that, Surfer probably couldn't do much about it.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
and you could probably call Doctor's powers reality manip but then you'd have to classify a LOT of people in the tourney a reality manipulators.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
I understand that you're just looking for clarification, but the onus would be on someone else to show why he does things in a different manner than Strange, or Surfer, or FS, etc. Certainly the power source and methods are different, but the end result is the same.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Everyone knew who the Doctor was (though apparently your personal knowledge is a bit limited). He's not really an obscure pick anymore, and his powers are well-documented. It really shouldn't be an issue.
Matter manipulator reconfigures material or energy to make ends meet. Yet is still bounded by the laws of the universe.
Example 1-
Firestorm - he halts atomic activity, within matter to achieve “Absolute Zero”.
MJJ - Thinks, no more atomic activity, the area drops to absolute zero since a universal law has bin re-written.
Example 2 -
Superman can not travel beyond mach 1, with out creating sonic booms or have an outside force take care of it.
MJJ - can alter the laws within its proximity, so he can travel at light speed with out consequence.
Matter manipulation still needs to adhere to cause and effect. While reality defies, if not outright shatters it. If anything Matter manipulation, is well defined. While reality and Magic can be harder to distinguished at times.
Originally posted by id369
Matter manipulator reconfigures material or energy to make ends meet. Yet is still bounded by the laws of the universe.Example 1-
Firestorm - he halts atomic activity, within matter to achieve “Absolute Zero”.MJJ - Thinks, no more atomic activity, the area drops to absolute zero since a universal law has bin re-written.
Example 2 -
Superman can not travel beyond mach 1, with out creating sonic booms or have an outside force take care of it.
MJJ - can alter the laws within its proximity, so he can travel at light speed with out consequence.
Matter manipulation still needs to adhere to cause and effect. While reality defies, if not outright shatters it. If anything Matter manipulation, is well defined. While reality and Magic can be harder to distinguished at times.
Doctor doesn't rewrite anything. He could get rid of atomic radiation, for example, but it would be by altering the atoms/molecules of the radiation individually. He wouldn't be thinking of each one individually, but then neither does Firestorm view every atom in his creations. But Doctor wouldn't just think "no radiation" and it would happen by some alteration of reality, but he could, say, change it into dirt by altering the molecular structure.
And to my knowledge all The Doctor is referred to is "The Earth's Shaman." If there's anything labeling him as a reality manipulator, it's really just overzealous fans. MJJ would sh*t-pwn Doctor back to the Stone Age.
I was not actually attacking the Dr. Just helping define one from the other.
The main point, is one needs to follow couse and effect within the universal laws, the later shatters it entirely.
Ill give one more an example.
Prep -
X Matter Manipulators - Prep, I re-arrange my molecules to create a kriptionain body with no weaknesses.
X Reality Alter - I create 100 Supermans with no weaknesses out of nothing.
Matter manipulators must work, with what’s available though it has restrictions. Its more scientific, and a mistake can prove vary lethal ( I can post scans of Firestorm or Solar if need be).
While, warpers play with the laws of the universe with no real consequence. The laws are re-written, for its manifestation to proceed.
The Doctor is solidly in the first category.
I can post scans of The Doctor talking about having to route through molecular sequences to make his changes in a few instances. He's NOT a reality warper by the definition id used or either of the examples.
Heck, I'll make it a part of my writeup for goober just to play nice.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
The Doctor is solidly in the first category.I can post scans of The Doctor talking about having to route through molecular sequences to make his changes in a few instances. He's NOT a reality warper by the definition id used or either of the examples.
Heck, I'll make it a part of my writeup for goober just to play nice.
That would actually help, I can post examples of reality alters, and other more classical matter manipulation.
Though there is a point, where things get confusing by high end matter manipulators. Like Evil classic Molecule Man and Mad Jims Jaspers. Can either or effect one another.
There's a scan in particular where it's really hit the fan and Jeroen is talking about them being so messed up it would take him weeks to work it out. One of the Kev arcs, where MN'er and Apollo have to go solo because The Doctor is fixing everyone else. "It's so far below molecular, I don't even know where to start," he says. If he were a reality warper, he'd just think it and they'd be back to normal.
I'll post it when I get the chance to scan it in.
So no, he's neither on MM's level or MJJ. Powerful as all hell. Clearly Transcendent level when he isn't tied down with this tourney's restrictions (time, organic matter manip, BFR, etc.) but that's it.
I think the problem or the confusion comes to the definition of reality.
Reality in a perspective point, is defined on what we considered real from fake. Sometimes its inserted poetically in some comics, to show how perspective is being toyed with. One can not distinguish reality from Fake. As in the case with elaborate illusions, or manipulation of the 5 human senses. Its not that actual reality is being changed, just that the perspective of what you view as reality is being challenged.
Improper use of atomic manipulation comes with consequence if not careful.
And here is an example of reality altering claim used poetically. Racheal did not perform actual reality warping. That was nothing more then, altering the atoms around her, to adjust what she wants or desires.
Then you have time manipulation, to effect probability, and insert an event adjustment to effect the current reality…I don’t think I want to get into that. I blame the game Xenogears for forcing it down, you need to really open up your perspective and read carefully the mechanics behind this working to understand it….but at first its really confusing (at least for me it was).
Alright, with that settled, I need a clarification:
I altered my strategy this round just in case the power transference is illegal, but is it? Also, did the temporary transference act as my "power boost" that I bought, even though it didn't last and wasn't in affect for the battle?
I'll probably just avoid it altogether in subsequent rounds, but I'd like to know just for curiosity's sake.
