Wow, changing rules in the middle of a tournament....not cool. These characters were drafted and approved, the write ups were posted and approved. Now people are whining and rules get changed? 😐
I've seen too much bashing and flaming on these threads. Some people should watch what they type in their posts. Evangel, you need to rethink this rule change.
For the record, I am done with the tourney, and have no designs on coming back. I could probably do some damage with Thor, a severely neutered Doctor, and whatever chip I have on my shoulder from the decision, but there's too many people left in the tourney that even I'd vote for against me at this point, whose debating skills are equal to mine, and whose teams are at least equal to what I'd currently be working with and probably much more powerful.
But I'd like to inform everyone of the situation, so that it never happens again in tournaments. The following is from PMs during drafts:
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Basically, I'm planning on pairing The Doctor with a tech-brain person and building all sorts of advanced tech with the D's powers and the other person's knowledge. I don't think this would require an insta-tech purchase, since I'm using matter manip. to accomplish it, but I'm not sure.
Evangel94 wrote on Feb 22nd, 2008 05:39 PM:
The Doctor doesn't have the ability to build advanced tech at super speed like Stonecutter or Engineer from scratch so its ok.I am guessing your using matter manipulation for tech building, so its ok. You don't need Instant Ramen Technology. Just buy adequate prep time and resources if you plan on building stuff.
-Evangel94
The following is from my recent match:
Originally posted by Evangel94
If you plan on using matter manipulation then to create tech, then you better have the [b]knowledge and the preparation time to do so in a realistic manner given the time you bought.According to Digimark007 himself The Doctor is...
He can't create tech instantly, but he could attempt to create tech. How much he could create in 15 minutes is definitely limited so it would be up to Digimark to focus on what he wants to create in that limited time frame and limited field resources. He can attempt to spy on Papa Smurph to see what he is doing if he so chooses. Plausibility of successful spying is dependant on write-up. [/B]
...so it was legal even during my match. It was only late in the match that it was declared illegal:
Originally posted by Evangel94
If matter manipulation becomes anymore of a problem in this tournament, I'll definitely put a limit on it.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Why is it a problem? Because there's discussion on the characters that use it? That's to be expected in a tournament for any character. Smurph is an exception though, who has a hard time debating against someone without trying to trash their entire plan, even the parts that make perfect sense.In any case, nothing I've ever done is against your rules, so I really hope we don't resort to making more limits...because it could ruin my (or others'😉 plans entirely, and it wouldn't be consistent with the rules we drafted under.
No discussion took place on the matter after that point, and my points and questions were not addressed. It was deemed a problem (from, I can only speculate, Smurph's complaints and little else) and then banned.
...
I have stressed to others, and maintain now, that a person and a person's opinion are separate, and we need not bash a person if we disagree with them, however strong the disagreement is. I do, strongly, disagree with the decision to ban inorganic matter manipulation for tech creation, since it was established multiple times that it was legal. However, I'd ask everyone to refrain from making it a personal issue beyond the disagreement of opinions.
But I do want to use this as a platform to say that this is something that I don't think should EVER happen in tournaments. The time and money I spent amassing comics for this tournament have been instantly invalidated on a whim, and the fun I was having competing against others has been negated because I can no longer compete. And I'd like to think that the tourney itself has been lessened somewhat. If goober had still been in the tournament, he'd be in the same situation.
...
In the future, I'll be attempting to prepare a brief guide for tournament directors so that they are prepared for the many challenges that await them (because it's never as easy to host well as people think, so I empathize with nearly any tourney director) and possible pitfalls that have trapped past tourney directors, from time issues (either too slow or too fast), individual decisions, maintaining set power levels, etc. etc. because starting with ill's (or even dating back to Trick's failed attempt at a mutiny) there hasn't been a lot to be proud of in tournaments....the reasons differ, and many tried hard to make it work, but if the outcome is general apathy and/or negativity, something needs to be corrected.
...but then she had a chance to see me employ it in 3 straight matches and still declared it legal, which is why I posted all the different decisions. There was even another one during the opening round, when she first had a chance to see my plan, but I couldn't find it. So at that point there should be no miscommunication. I can only work with what I'm given. I can't read minds.
And like I said, goober checked with the same rule, because his whole thing was tech creation. I kept in communication with him almost daily, and we both realized we were doing similar (legal) things, because we had both gotten it approved.
I apologize Digi, one of the matches that you talked about employing it was against me. And as I have no great fondness for participating in tournaments, when Eva PM'd me several times to join I decided I'd join, but only to have fun and try to releave some of the tension. I suppose sine my match wasn't serious Eva might not have seriously read our match.
But since you had employed it in another match she should have read it then at least.
Not your fault. So no worries. I would've understood if she had seen the matches, realized there was a miscommunication, then told me I was doing something wrong. But she saw it (and goober's), then confirmed it multiple times in the threads (and this after PMs from both of us as well)....and even in the recent match where Stacks made a fuss. So it wasn't misunderstanding. It was complaints and whining leading to a mid-tourney rule change. Nothing more or less.
Originally posted by DigiMark007It's not the first time she's given in to poor debators complaints based on little to no evidence.
Not your fault. So no worries. I would've understood if she had seen the matches, realized there was a miscommunication, then told me I was doing something wrong. But she saw it (and goober's), then confirmed it multiple times in the threads (and this after PMs from both of us as well)....and even in the recent match where Stacks made a fuss. So it wasn't misunderstanding. It was complaints and whining leading to a mid-tourney rule change. Nothing more or less.
Basically the dilemma here is when does using matter manipulation cross the line and start to infringe on "instant technology" of characters such as stonecutter and engineer.
I was called to draw a distinct the line between the two. However, I can see that trying to draw a distinct line doesn't work because the two processes, while similar, use different methods to attain the same result. From now on I am simply going back to what I said earlier.
If you have the ability to instantly create technology, and plan on using it, then you need to buy instant tech.If you plan on using matter manipulation then to create tech, then you better have the knowledge and the preparation time to do so in a realistic manner given the time you bought.
Whether or not Digimark adequately bought the time and resources to do what he says is not something that should be brought to my attention as a rule violation. Or even if he can do it is not something that should be argued with me. Bring it up in the debate.
Do not repeatedly complain to me about it if you have issues with it. I feel it is your responsibility to address what is said. If you have a problem with his prep time and resources available to him, then it is on you to reflect that in your vote and your argument.
I apologize for whatever confusion issues this has caused. I feel that we should simply return to matches as scheduled. If you wish to no longer continue Digimark007, then I understand, and will schedule the remaining matches accordingly.
-Evangel94
Originally posted by Creshoskshe said multiple people complained...leading me to believe at least 3 people complained...wonder who besides Papa Smurph complained
It's not the first time she's given in to poor debators complaints based on little to no evidence.
I do think Evangels updated rules (limiting matter manipulation) seem a bit more fair...but yeah, she totally should have made those rules clear in the beginning
Originally posted by Evangel94
Basically the dilemma here is when does using matter manipulation cross the line and start to infringe on "instant technology" of characters such as stonecutter and engineer.I was called to draw a distinct the line between the two. However, I can see that trying to draw a distinct line doesn't work because the two processes, while similar, use different methods to attain the same result. From now on I am simply going back to what I said earlier.
Whether or not Digimark adequately bought the time and resources to do what he says is not something that should be brought to my attention as a rule violation. Or even if he can do it is something that should be brought up in the voting and debate process. Do not repeatedly complain to be about it if you have issues with it. I feel it is your responsibility to address what is said. If you have a problem with his prep time and resources available to him, then it is on [b]you
to reflect that in your vote and your argument.I apologize for whatever confusion issues this has caused. I feel that we should simply return to matches as scheduled. If you wish to no longer continue Digimark007, then I understand, and will schedule the remaining matches accordingly.
-Evangel94 [/B]
This doesn't even clarify anything, so I wouldn't know whether or not my overriding strategy is legal or not.
Time and resources, you say? I have those, I showed them....took about 5 different posts, 10+ scans, a few thousand words, etc. to do so. Joey...complained? It seems to have taken precedence, however....even after you said it was fine during my match. Doctor can use matter manip to create stuff pretty damn quickly....which is why I only took 15 minutes of prep. I have the time and resources to build anything I need, which I always limited to 2-3 inventions max. So, is "instant" 5 seconds? A minute? Or, literally, instant? Or should it even matter? You tried to make a demarcation line in the time it takes, when it should've just been "can you use matter manip or not to make tech?" Yes or no. I was told yes multiple times. So was goober, if for no other reason than his plan was never called out as illegal. Then it was banned.
But it's a moot point. The whole thing has me pretty disenchanted with the tourney, and since nothing was overturned in that post, my plan is still illegal. Rule changes shouldn't be happening at this point. And I'm done. I might fool around in the FFA if it's ok with you, but can't actually seriously continue with two herald-levelers who have no possibility of boosting their power. I enter these things to win, and wouldn't want to continue just to see how long I survive until someone puts my team out of its misery.
What about using matter manip to create the components for the tech, to be assembled by the tech heads? Creating silicone shouldn't be too hard, nor metal wiring. The tech heads can then assemble the components into machinery. This is how I understood Digi's plan to work, or else at least with being told by the tech heads you could create slightly more clpmplex with circut boards being the silicone circuit boards with the wires attatched to it in ways that the tech heads describe.
Originally posted by Master-Borg
she said multiple people complained...leading me to believe at least 3 people complained...wonder who besides Papa Smurph complainedI do think Evangels updated rules (limiting matter manipulation) seem a bit more fair...but yeah, she totally should have made those rules clear in the beginning
Mutliple is simply more than one. I have my suspicions as to whom the other person is as he succeeded in the past with complaining about something and getting it banned.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
This doesn't even clarify anything, so I wouldn't know whether or not my overriding strategy is legal or not.
Evangel was pretty clear.
She stated the rules.
She did not state that your plan violated her rules.
So, your plan doesn't violate her rules.
However, she is pointing out that voters should decide how realistic some of the prep was. Remember how Goobers plan had him forming an army of 6 billion in 15 minutes...yeah, that would prob fall under unrealistic. Your plan, at least by the way most voters are voting for you, does not suffer from that issue.
In conclusion, Evangel's ruling doesn't really effect your plans.