Rots Palpatine vs Nilihus and Sion

Originally posted by 666.1

Does it really matter? I fail to see how technical prowess with a saber means so much when you have a level of force ability that Nihilus and Sion do; the latter whom was able to overpower the ridiculously powerful Traya (who displays an unparalleled ability with precognition) in one move in combat with his speed alone, which as a showing of ability, puts RotS Palpatine's best (doing the same to the largely less impressive Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin), to shame. When you have a titanic level of ability with the force like Sion and Nihilus do, where you'd be able to amp up your speed, strength, and predict the moves of your opponents to a far greater degree than almost anyone, technique wouldn't logically even be a real factor, unless your opponent rivalled you in force ability (which RotS Palpatine, based on shown limitations, most certainly does not when you're dealing with titans like Nihilus; compare being forced to dodge a senate pod moving at minimal speeds to tearing an entire fleet out of a gravity well -- and the same goes with Sion based on our knowledge of the two; the fact that Sidious never displays anything approaching a godly display of the force would mean that there's nothing to suggest that they'd be on par with someone who has).

On that note, since when exactly was Palpatine the man when it came to saber technique anyway? We know that he hadn't practised with a lightsaber for over a decade by the time period we're dealing with, so he's pretty much in the same boat as Sion and Nihilus here, being that out of practise, at the very best for him (for all we know, Sion and Nihilus actually were well trained with the lightsaber; whereas we know that Sidious definitely wasn't by RotS).

Well that's quite clearly untrue; Sion displays ability far beyond that shown by Sidious when he overpowers the ridiculously powerful Traya (before anyone points out that Traya was a historian and logically lacking in technical ability with the lightsaber, it doesn't matter; technique only comes into play during a lightsaber exchange, not when you fail to block a single opening strike (where the only factors would be speed and reflexes, both powered mostly by the force, which Traya was The [wo]Man with)). Aside of that, Nihilus TKing an entire fleet out of a gravity well is also far beyond anything we see from Sidious at this point. Not to mention, does it truly matter anyway? Ignoring Nihilus' Force bond severing technique, or Sion's ability to cheat death (both being their greatest gifts, which would both apply to Sidious, and which both are testament for their overall ability) in your comparison naturally undermines the conclusion you draw from it.

I'd also like to see proof that there's an actual limit to Sion's ability as well, given that you're clearly making the assertion that there is.

Firstly, Palpatine's usages of Quey'tek have never hidden his entire force sensitivity, just most of it, to the point where it appeared that he didn't possess enough of it to be able to effectively wield the force.

Again, what exactly does Sidious himself even have going for him in that area? He had been out of practise for over ten years, nothing points to his technique being beyond Nihilus' own, and he's clearly lacking in force ability.

Don't be ridiculous. There's his force ability, which largely factors in on overall lightsaber ability, and then of course, there's his level of physically durability, which even better than Bane's orbalisk armour, enables Sion to take a fully offensive stance in a lightsaber battle without needing to defend himself, allows him to block attacks with his body, and integrate melee attack into the fight with -- again -- no need to worry about being vulnerable. The above would actually give Sion a somewhat unique style, which Sidious logically wouldn't know how to deal with.

ANother pwnage against Noobaris.. Next time you get banned, stay off of the forums...

Originally posted by 666.1
Does it really matter? I fail to see how technical prowess with a saber means so much when you have a level of force ability that Nihilus and Sion do; the latter whom was able to overpower the ridiculously powerful Traya (who displays an unparalleled ability with precognition) in one move in combat with his speed alone, which as a showing of ability, puts RotS Palpatine's best (doing the same to the largely less impressive Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin), to shame. When you have a titanic level of ability with the force like Sion and Nihilus do, where you'd be able to amp up your speed, strength, and predict the moves of your opponents to a far greater degree than almost anyone, technique wouldn't logically even be a real factor, unless your opponent rivalled you in force ability (which RotS Palpatine, based on shown limitations, most certainly does not when you're dealing with titans like Nihilus; compare being forced to dodge a senate pod moving at minimal speeds to tearing an entire fleet out of a gravity well -- and the same goes with Sion based on our knowledge of the two; the fact that Sidious never displays anything approaching a godly display of the force would mean that there's nothing to suggest that they'd be on par with someone who has).

Alas, neither Darth Nihilus nor Darth Sion have demonstrated the ability to "amp up your speed, strength, and predict the moves of your opponents to a far greater degree than almost anyone", so we can consign this as sheer delusion. Furthermore, you've yet to substantiate or demonstrate the true "uberness!!1!" of Sion's defeat of Traya. Was she restraining herself? Did he catch her off guard? And even if he did defeat her outright, precognition is hardly infallible, and weaknesses therein have been the downfall of dozens and dozens of Sith Lords and Jedi Knights in the mythos; if Traya's precognition was so accurate, she would have realized that she was destined to be defeated by the Exile and her lunatic plans dismantled. Since your entire argument regarding Traya's "ridiculous power" is framed solely on precognition, it is ultimately something that doesn't require one's attention. And as far as demonstrations of power are concerned, Kreia and Sion both give statements tantamount to the conclusion that Sion is only "invincible" (a term I use lightly) on worlds deeply strong in the dark side of the Force, one can conclude that outside of that particularly morbid arena, he's completely screwed. And so, losing his only one real talent, his little glow fades and he becomes a crisp of a human who can and will be easily dismantled by Darth Sidious. Only Nihilus is the true threat here.

On that note, since when exactly was Palpatine the man when it came to saber technique anyway? We know that he hadn't practised with a lightsaber for over a decade by the time period we're dealing with, so he's pretty much in the same boat as Sion and Nihilus here, being that out of practise, at the very best for him (for all we know, Sion and Nihilus actually were well trained with the lightsaber; whereas we know that Sidious definitely wasn't by RotS).

Please, even his DE self wouldn't stand a chance against the two of them; his RotS hasn't even displayed ability close to that of the weaker of the two: Sion, and would logically get destroyed in a fight against the both of them.

Your assertions to the contrary don't make it so. It had been over a decade since the then-Emperor Palpatine touched a lightsaber, and yet retained sufficient skill and potency to overcome "three of the finest swordsmen in the Order's history" -- pushed Mace Windu on the defensive -- and dueled at speeds that the novelization referred to him as "a blur", "a living shadow". Sion, I'm afraid, does not compare whatsoever. It would be a generosity to refer to him as a "distraction" at best.

Well that's quite clearly untrue; Sion displays ability far beyond that shown by Sidious when he overpowers the ridiculously powerful Traya (before anyone points out that Traya was a historian and logically lacking in technical ability with the lightsaber, it doesn't matter; technique only comes into play during a lightsaber exchange, not when you fail to block a single opening strike (where the only factors would be speed and reflexes, both powered mostly by the force, which Traya was The [wo]Man with)). Aside of that, Nihilus TKing an entire fleet out of a gravity well is also far beyond anything we see from Sidious at this point. Not to mention, does it truly matter anyway? Ignoring Nihilus' Force bond severing technique, or Sion's ability to cheat death (both being their greatest gifts, which would both apply to Sidious, and which both are testament for their overall ability) in your comparison naturally undermines the conclusion you draw from it.

No, I'm afraid not, Nebaris. Precognition is not infallible, so citing Traya's penchant for it as the sole reason for her "uberness" is clearly fallacious. As far as Darth Nihilus's display of telekinesis, so what? He managed to pull a couple of Sith interdictors out of a gravity well. You don't know if he did so one at a time or if he had to peform a technique "ritualisic in nature" or if he did so from Malachor (a planet strong in the dark side, which would naturally enhance his powers). Vader's Apprentice was able to rip a Star Destroyer (which is much larger and heavier than a Sith interdictor) from the sky and Dorsk 81, a pathetic Force-sensitive at best, was able to throw Grand Admiral Pellaeon's fleet out of the Yavin system in one fell swoop, with assistance from a dozen or so equally-pathetic Force-users. Until you substantiate this, I fail to be impressed.

I'd also like to see proof that there's an actual limit to Sion's ability as well, given that you're clearly making the assertion that there is.

Darth Sion and Traya speak it themselves. The quotes they issue are tantamount to evidence that, outside of planets strong in the dark side, Sion remains a very vulnerable Sith Lord.

No, he provided commentary for the fact that regular human vitality didn't demand his attention. In this scenario, where it's assumed that Nihilus would be fighting to win, his attention would clearly be directed at his opponent.

And all he'd see (I use the term lightly) is a person whose vitality is not enough to warrant his attention. Since Nihilus's body is clearly dead, he has no "eyes" to speak of, so either way, he can't see Darth Sidious.

Either way, the fact that he was able to direct a force stasis at the non-Force sensitive Mandalore (and thereby, sense him), effortlessly, would indicate that he has little trouble with sensing regular beings when he focuses on them.

When he has something to focus on. In this case, the Exile.

Firstly, Palpatine's usages of Quey'tek have never hidden his entire force sensitivity, just most of it, to the point where it appeared that he didn't possess enough of it to be able to effectively wield the force.

Force-sensitivity is the state of being where one bears the potential to access and manipulate the Force. Palpatine never demonstrates Force-sensitivity when he uses Quey'tek, and as already stated, human vitality is not enough to demand his attention. And there are no other Force-users present that represent a threat that would "give him away".

Secondly, as proven, Nihilus has no problem with sensing the force signature of regular beings, as proven with Mandalore.

Unlike Mandalore, Sidious won't have friendly Force-users uneducated in Quey'tek to give himself away.

Again, what exactly does Sidious himself even have going for him in that area? He had been out of practise for over ten years, nothing points to his technique being beyond Nihilus' own, and he's clearly lacking in force ability.

Palpatine's "out of practice" state was still enough to kill three of the Order's finest swordsmen and rival both Mace Windu and Yoda. That's well, well beyond anything Nihilus has demonstrared. Your assertions to the contrary don't ring with the sound of truth until you prove it.

Don't be ridiculous. There's his force ability, which largely factors in on overall lightsaber ability, and then of course, there's his level of physically durability, which even better than Bane's orbalisk armour, enables Sion to take a fully offensive stance in a lightsaber battle without needing to defend himself, allows him to block attacks with his body, and integrate melee attack into the fight with -- again -- no need to worry about being vulnerable. The above would actually give Sion a somewhat unique style, which Sidious logically wouldn't know how to deal with.

You using the term "logic" here doesn't exactly warrant confidence in your opinion, since you seem to not bother backing it up at all. Sidious possesses knowledge of Darths Traya, Nihilus, and Sion. He, unlike them, possesses awareness and prior knowledge to which he may use to his advantage. Furthermore, Traya and Sion have already commented that, without a planet strong in the dark side to fuel him, Sion clearly doesn't possess his psuedoinvulnerability.

Their individual "superpowers" are testament for their overall ability. They both draw off of the force, and rely on their ability with it to achieve such feats. That ability is transferable with all applications of the force. Irregardless of that, they've both displayed abilities outside of their "superpowers" that go beyond those shown by Palpatine, as of RotS, and you've yet to prove that their "superpowers" wouldn't apply to Sidious. Get to that.

Their individual "superpowers" are not testament to their overall ability (that would require some proof). Sion's invulnerability is a demented form of potent will and -- more importantly -- sites strong in the dark side of the Force. Nihilus will be blind, cut off from sight (both physical and preternatural) of Sidious, and his "advantage" will be blunted. Sion doesn't even begin to qualify as a distraction. So, once Nihilus is disabled, Sion will die next. Either way, Sidious easily possesses the capabilities to win this fight.

Now, Nebaris, I appreciate your argument. But you've only got one source for Sion's supposed skill, and it's not enough. You've failed to substantiate or even suggest how disabling Traya is something that would put him on par with a seasoned and deadly Sith Lord like Sidious, and while Nihilus is certainly up there, Sidious has the powers, means, knowledge, and cunning to render Nihilus's advantage moot. Leave the rest of the argument to Janus, because we'll consider your arguments as "regular human vitality" to my Nihilus. And until you bring in something new, like "strong Force-sensitivity", your argument is not enough to warrant my attention.

Originally posted by Gideon
Alas, neither Darth Nihilus nor Darth Sion have demonstrated the ability to "amp up your speed, strength, and predict the moves of your opponents to a far greater degree than almost anyone", so we can consign this as sheer delusion.

As has been explained to you constantly: every single application of the Force is powered through the same source (the Force), and relies on the user’s ability at manipulating it (strength in the Force, and master of it). Displaying an excellence with one technique speaks for the user’s ability at manipulating the power source that said technique derives from (the – mentioned – force), and that ability is applicable through any manifestation of the mentioned source of power. Meaning, the level of ability displayed with one technique speaks for the general level of ability over the power source, and all its other manifestations. Now I won’t deny that you do get anomalies and such, but given that they are actually anomalies, Occam’s Razor would dictate that unless evidence points to what we see from Nihilus and Sion being anomalous in respect to what else they can do, we logically take the stance that what we see is testament to their overall ability. Thus, it can be logically assumed that Sion and Nihilus both excel with enhancing their physical attributes, reflexes, and with precognition just as they do with the “superpowers” (I love that word) that they display.

Furthermore, you've yet to substantiate or demonstrate the true "uberness!!1!" of Sion's defeat of Traya.

The Man: the latter whom was able to overpower the ridiculously powerful Traya (who displays an unparalleled ability with precognition) in one move in combat with his speed alone, which as a showing of ability, puts RotS Palpatine's best (doing the same to the largely less impressive Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin), to shame.

The Man: Well that's quite clearly untrue; Sion displays ability far beyond that shown by Sidious when he overpowers the ridiculously powerful Traya (before anyone points out that Traya was a historian and logically lacking in technical ability with the lightsaber, it doesn't matter; technique only comes into play during a lightsaber exchange, not when you fail to block a single opening strike (where the only factors would be speed and reflexes, both powered mostly by the force, which Traya was The [wo]Man with)).

Officially substantiated. Ignoring it doesn’t make it go away.

Essentially, he was able to use the force to move himself at such a high level of speed to the point where a fully prepared Darth Traya (she was in a battle stance, and focused on Sion) was unable to react and defend against a single saber strike. It’s been established that Traya’s speed, reflexes, and precognition would logically be extremely impressive, given her incredible ability at manipulating the Force (which is what primarily powers the above mentioned abilities), so the fact that she was unable to defend herself from just one attack speaks volumes for the speed at which Sion was able to move himself, and it’s logically far above any such display on Palpatine’s part (his highest showing in that department being doing the same to far less impressive Force Users), countering your assertion that Sion hasn’t displayed anything superior to Palpatine outside of his “pseudoinvincibility.”

Was she restraining herself?

There would have been no purpose in doing so, nothing suggests as much, and letting Sion take her down like he did would have been counter productive to her plans.

Did he catch her off guard?

If he did catch her off guard, that doesn’t undermine the excellence behind what he does (as you appear to think), but rather, reinforces it. Given her unparalleled adeptness with precognition, his speed truly would have had to have been blinding to catch her off guard.

And even if he did defeat her outright, precognition is hardly infallible, and weaknesses therein have been the downfall of dozens and dozens of Sith Lords and Jedi Knights in the mythos;

Precognition is only stated to be inherently weak when a Force user’s attention is away from what catches them off guard, and nothing suggests that it would ever work under normal efficiency when you’re focused on your opponent (which Traya was with Sion).

if Traya's precognition was so accurate, she would have realized that she was destined to be defeated by the Exile and her lunatic plans dismantled.

By “so accurate,” you’re referring to everything she predicts at the end of KotOR2, right? If so, I can only assume that you’re extremely unaware of how precognition works, and being such a nice guy, I’ll explain it to you.

As is shown throughout the EU, and further elaborated specifically in the KotOR comics, precognitive visions and such are completely uncontrolled, and just come to those gifted with that aspect of the Force. Traya predicting all that she does at the end of KotOR2 was not something she can control, meaning she can’t just predict whatever she wants, whenever she wants, at will. However, that in no way undermines the accuracy of her precognition, but rather the nature of such cosmic scale predictions. Battle precognition, on the other hand, is something that can be controlled, and something that’s always in effect as long as it’s focused, which Traya was doing with Sion. Visions, and battle precognition, whilst being different in nature, are essentially the same thing at the end of the day (predicting the future), and whilst Traya can’t control her visions and such, the accuracy, scale, and detail of them speak for an extremely high level in the art as a whole.

Her battle precognition, which was in full effect against Sion, would be relatively as extraordinary as her larger scale visions, and the fact that along with her reflexes, and speed (all powered primarily by the force), it was unable to defend against Sion’s attack would indicate that he was moving at an extremely high speed.

Since your entire argument regarding Traya's "ridiculous power" is framed solely on precognition, it is ultimately something that doesn't require one's attention.

Didn’t realise I needed to prove the previously proven.

In short: her unparalleled precognition, her ability to casually dominate three top Jedi Masters at once with the force, her ability to do the same to about a dozen Sith Assassins, and her ability to completely hide her presence from powerful Jedi whilst directly in front of them all suggest an extremely high level of power, that surpasses the vast majority of all known Force users.

And as far as demonstrations of power are concerned, Kreia and Sion both give statements tantamount to the conclusion that Sion is only "invincible" (a term I use lightly) on worlds deeply strong in the dark side of the Force, one can conclude that outside of that particularly morbid arena, he's completely screwed.

Like Elite Hunter, and Pwned61, you’re misinterpreting what’s said. All that’s said is that the “dark spots” of such worlds is what provides Sion the ability to hold his body together, and cheat death; not the worlds themselves – the fact that Sion was perfectly capable of keeping his body together and staying alive on Peragus 2 at the start of KOtOR2 would disprove that anyway. Now, assuming that the setting here is a neutral one (which is what one would assume when it’s not made clear by the TC), there will be dark spots of the world for Sion to use to hold his body together, and keep himself alive.

Also, seeing as you chose to ignore this the last time, Ill post it again for you:

On that note, since when exactly was Palpatine the man when it came to saber technique anyway? We know that he hadn't practised with a lightsaber for over a decade by the time period we're dealing with, so he's pretty much in the same boat as Sion and Nihilus here, being that out of practise, at the very best for him (for all we know, Sion and Nihilus actually were well trained with the lightsaber; whereas we know that Sidious definitely wasn't by RotS).

Your assertions to the contrary don't make it so. It had been over a decade since the then-Emperor Palpatine touched a lightsaber, and yet retained sufficient skill and potency to overcome "three of the finest swordsmen in the Order's history"

Firstly, he overpowered the first two: Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin, through his speed alone, by taking them out before they could react. That speaks nothing for actual skill, but rather his ability with the force, or more specifically, ability to use the force to enhance his speed. That being said, the fact that they were great swordsmen (the exact quote you’re referring to is from Obi-Wan’s PoV, btw, not from the omniscient narrator) is irrelevant, as their apparent incredible prowess with the saber wouldn’t have been a factor in simply reacting to an attack.

Now as for Kit Fisto, sure, he may have beaten him through actual lightsaber exchanges rather than catching him off guard, but the fact remains that you’ve yet to substantiate the skill required in doing so (when you drawf your opponent in force power as badly as Sidious does Kit Fisto, Sidious might not necessarily have to be anywhere near as technically gifted with the weapon as the Nautolan is if he possesses a significant enough advantage in other areas such as speed, strength, reflexes, and precognitive abilities – all of which are powered by the Force), and again, the idea that Kit Fisto was that good, technically, is coming from a fallible third party.

-- pushed Mace Windu on the defensive –

Again, substantiate the technique required in doing this, and prove that he didn’t do so on merits of his incredible ability with the force.

and dueled at speeds that the novelization referred to him as "a blur", "a living shadow".

Which again speaks for Force mastery alone, and in no way actual technique, not to mention that part of the novelisation is invalid anyway, as the descriptions given are from Anakin’s PoV, when we know from the movie that Anakin only arrived at the Chancellor’s office after Mace Windu had disarmed him, and the fight had ended.

So, to summarise, nothing you just posted proves that Sidious “retained sufficient skill” after having not practised with a lightsaber for over a decade, and most certainly nothing counters the straightforward conclusion: that Palpatine would be technically lacking with a lightsaber after having been so out of practise.

As far as Darth Nihilus's display of telekinesis, so what? He managed to pull a couple of Sith interdictors out of a gravity well.

It was his entire fleet, including the ridiculously large Ravager, and yes, it was outside of a gravity well. When you have RotS Sidious being forced to dodge a single Senate Pod moving at minimal speeds, and his somewhat equal, struggling to hold pillars in place, it’s an exceptional show of ability, and far beyond Sidious’ shown limitations.

You don't know if he did so one at a time

He was described as tearing the fleet out of the gravity well, so clearly not.

or if he had to peform a technique "ritualisic in nature"

The entire purpose behind the narrative was to give the player a sense of how powerful Nihilus was, so the idea that it was a direct application of the Force can be safely assumed to best fit the vision of the game makers.

or if he did so from Malachor (a planet strong in the dark side, which would naturally enhance his powers).

We do know that he did so from Malachor, so sure, there would be somewhat of an enhancement, but given that a planet “steeped in the dark side” didn’t exactly take Dooku’s power to new heights (he was already somewhat close to Yoda in ability without such an advantage, so if the enhancement really were that amazing, he should have been far superior to the Jedi Master), it can be logically concluded that the enhancements from such a world doesn’t take enough away from the feat to undermine the original point: that Nihilus’ TK ability is far beyond Palpatine’s shown limitations.

Vader's Apprentice was able to rip a Star Destroyer (which is much larger and heavier than a Sith interdictor) from the sky

Is there a point behind this red herring? Vader’s apprentice is clearly an extremely powerful Force user -- the main character in a game focused on overpowering the Force to the fullest, and someone who a large portion of this forum already consider one of the more powerful known Force users. This in no way detracts from what Nihilus does, and in no way changes the fact that it far outclasses Sidious’ displayed limitation with the very technique.

and Dorsk 81, a pathetic Force-sensitive at best, was able to throw Grand Admiral Pellaeon's fleet out of the Yavin system in one fell swoop, with assistance from a dozen or so equally-pathetic Force-users.

1. The idea that these mentioned Force users were “pathetic” remains unsupported.

2. The lightside is said to work best when its followers work together, which is exactly what they were doing.

3. At the end of the day, it was still twelve Jedi working together. Hardly a small group, all combining their powers, through a method where the light side of the force is best used. Like your above point, this in no way undermines what Nihilus displays.

Until you substantiate this, I fail to be impressed.

Don’t be ridiculous; as I explained, it’s a display of power that goes far beyond a displayed limitation on Palpatine’s part. No further substantiation necessary; you made the assertion that outside of his drain, Nihilus hadn’t displayed anything surpassing that shown by Palpatine – as explained in my counter, that’s clearly not the case.

Darth Sion and Traya speak it themselves. The quotes they issue are tantamount to evidence that, outside of planets strong in the dark side, Sion remains a very vulnerable Sith Lord.

As I explained, you misinterpreted what they were saying, not to mention, that still wouldn’t undermine the potency of the ability (which is what I was asking you to do), but rather, how many situations it could be used.

And all he'd see (I use the term lightly) is a person whose vitality is not enough to warrant his attention.

As you always do, you’re taking things out of context.

As part of the plot unique to KotOR2, Nihilus is set up as being a force of nature, who cares only for his hunger, which can only be satisfied by feasting on planets, or large groups of Force users. In that sense, a being who cannot satisfy his hunger doesn’t warrant his attention, that’s correct. However, this isn’t a story board thread where Nihilus is going to decide to leave the arena and go feast on a planet. It’s assumed that they fight to win, and going by that, Nihilus’ attention would always be directed at his enemy, irregardless of the actions he’d take in the KotOR2 story.

Since Nihilus's body is clearly dead, he has no "eyes" to speak of, so either way, he can't see Darth Sidious.

He can sense his force presence, and there’s no proof that Sidious could shield that from Nihilus, so it’s a moot point.

When he has something to focus on. In this case, the Exile.

The Exile herself was stated not to warrant Nihilus’ attention, yet when confronted by her, he was clearly able to sense her, and her party, rendering your entire argument void. Palpatine using Quey’tek will not prevent Nihilus from sensing him, bottom line.

Force-sensitivity is the state of being where one bears the potential to access and manipulate the Force.

Your definition is a limited one, here’s a better one:

Force-sensitivity is the state of being where one bears a connection to the Force.

Which all humans do, as they all possess midi-chlorians, which grant them their sensitivity. If Palpatine had masked his entire sensitivity, he wouldn’t have appeared human.

Unlike Mandalore, Sidious won't have friendly Force-users uneducated in Quey'tek to give himself away.

No, but he’ll have his trusted ally Sion to keep him informed.

^And that’s only a necessity if we go by the asinine assumption that his attention would be focused on something that would only be an issue in a realistic story setting, and not an set up arena style duel between Force users.

[qoute]You using the term "logic" here doesn't exactly warrant confidence in your opinion, since you seem to not bother backing it up at all.[/quote]

Again, the obvious doesn’t always require justification. Darth Sidious has never encountered a being like Sion, and would never have prepared himself against someone like that. Being able to parry with parts of his body, and integrate melee attacks without the need of self preservation would give him a style that Sidious wouldn’t be prepared against.

Sidious possesses knowledge of Darths Traya, Nihilus, and Sion. He, unlike them, possesses awareness and prior knowledge to which he may use to his advantage.

Which means little, as he would have seen no reason to prepare against such an opponent as Sion, given that there wasn’t one in his era.

Now for the parts of your argument that I missed out, you’ll find it’s all been responded to in one way or another in the counter argument above, but really, I find the idea that you’re even arguing that Sidious might win this in the first place absurd. He hadn’t practised with a lightsaber in over a decade, his shown limitation with a basic ability like telekinesis is pathetic, and all he really has going for him is that he was, along with Yoda, the best of his era. He never displays anything that [i]wasn’t[i] mediocre, and nothing close to that of the KotOR2 duo.

Sion on the other hand is virtually invincible from a combat standpoint (the fact that the ability is entirely unique to him indicates a titanic adeptness with the Force), can fight with his saber without the need of protecting himself, displays speed great enough to one hit defeat a Force user on the level of Traya before she could even respond (which makes Palpatine’s best display in that respect look average), and was a major player in wiping out the then-remaining Jedi left in the Galaxy during his time meaning he has experience facing them. Contrary to your worthless counter argument, his ability works outside of worlds like Korriban and Malachor.

Nihilus was a force of nature that reached a level of power where he no longer perceived the universe as a regular being would, but rather on a cosmic scale. A weak, “hungry” Nihilus was capable of wiping out the life of an entire planet, quickly, and effortlessly (which is about a gazillion times better than anything we see from Palpatine at this stage, and better than anything we even see from the much more powerful DE Sidious), and was able to forcefully pull an entire fleet out of a gravity well with telekinesis (which goes beyond a displayed limitation of the ability on Sidious’ part). Contrary to your worthless counter argument, nothing suggests that Sidious would be able to shield his presence from him.

In short: your Nihilus just took a bite out of my Jedi Exile, and is now on all fours, crying like a little girl.

Noobaris, you're embarassing yourself.

I believe Darth Sexy has said it best, Nebaris. I've told you that you need to offer new information in your argument instead of rehashing the same flawed points.

Well you would say that, but that doesn't change the facts that:

A) Not a single above point has ever been defeated.

B) Every single point I made is logically sound.

C) That was the first time I ever fully substantiated how impressive Traya's precognition was.

D) That was the first time I ever refuted the idea that Sion's ability to cheat death wouldn't work on worlds other than Korriban and Malachor, and other such darkside worlds.

E) That was he first time I ever addressed the idea that Nihilus wouldn't pay attention to someone who would appear as a regular being, in this scenario.

F) That was the first time I ever pointed out that there is no implied technical ability behind Palpatine's saber related showings throughout RotS.

G) That was the first time I ever supported the idea that Nihilus directly tore the fleet out of the Mass Shadows of Malachor with his power, rather than indirectly through a ritual.

H) That was the first time I ever argued the collective effort behind what Dorsk-81 and the Jedi did to Pallaeon's fleet.

I) That was the first time I ever pointed out that the Jedi Exile herself was stated to not be significant enough to warrant Darth Nihilus' attention, yet when confronted by her, Nihilus was perfectly capable of sensing her, thereby undermining Tobin's words on the matter.

J) That was the first time I ever pointed out that Sion would be in a position of informing Nihilus that they were being confronted by an enemy.

K) That was the first time I ever elaborated on the experience Sion would have logically gained through wiping out the remaining Jedi left in the Galaxy.

Now really, you say virtually the same thing after our every debate, yet a day later, you're going on about how "intelligent" I am.

Clearly your Darth Nihilus has been spending way too much time with Darth Sexy's Colonel Tobin.

Noobaris. Lying to yourself has gotten to be both pathetic and humorous. I think the day you actually win a debate is the day Rex DOESNT ban you, but that day is not today.

Originally posted by Nebaris
Now really, you say virtually the same thing after our every debate, yet a day later, you're going on about how "intelligent" I am.

As I explained to Darth Sexy on another thread:

Originally posted by Gideon
It's merely proof that an intelligent person does not equal a skilled debater.

I don't deny your intellect, despite your shortsighted and obscenely subjective ramblings and psuedologic, because I'm pretty much the most objective person you'll find in these parts, hence I'll defend your brain when the vast majority think you're an example of why aspiring parents need to get a license to breed. That doesn't make you a skilled debater or a wise one. When you want to debate again, try not to hinge your arguments solely on semantics and "implications" and try something along the lines of actual proof.

Please. Given that all we actually do here is debate, there wouldn't be any other avenue to gauge my intelligence from. You claim I use "psuedologic"; how well a person can think logically is a clear indication of how intelligent they are. There's also how creative someone is -- another attribute that shows in a debate, and an attribute I personally think shines through the majority of my arguments. Then of course, lastly, there's how perceptive someone can be; not exactly like I can display that in a debate, but that being said, there would be no other way, on these forums, that I could really tangibly display it, anyway. So really, you're clearly either lying out of your ass, or have no idea how to gauge how intelligent someone is. You're not an idiot yourself, so I'm gonna assume the former.

When you want to debate again, try not to hinge your arguments solely on semantics and "implications" and try something along the lines of actual proof.

Semantics and implications, now? Please, first it was rehashing the same flawed points, and not providing any new arguments (which as I pointed out, was clearly not the case), and now this? The only one instance I can see where my argument relied solely on such things was my argument regarding the nature in which Nihilus pulled his fleet out of a Gravity Well, and as always, you're whining about a perfectly valid style of argument. The meaning of the word "tear" quite clearly indicates that the entirety of the fleet was forcefully taken from the Mass Shadows of Malachor, and the word wouldn't have been included if it wasn't the intended message. You can argue that Nihilus may have pulled each ship from the gravity well one at a time all you want, but the "semantic," in this case, proves you wrong.

I sense a lot of Hate in this forum.....

Originally posted by 666.3
Please. Given that all we actually do here is debate, there wouldn't be any other avenue to gauge my intelligence from. You claim I use "psuedologic"; how well a person can think logically is a [b]clear indication of how intelligent they are. There's also how creative someone is -- another attribute that shows in a debate, and an attribute I personally think shines through the majority of my arguments. Then of course, lastly, there's how perceptive someone can be; not exactly like I can display that in a debate, but that being said, there would be no other way, on these forums, that I could really tangibly display it, anyway. So really, you're clearly either lying out of your ass, or have no idea how to gauge how intelligent someone is. You're not an idiot yourself, so I'm gonna assume the former.

Semantics and implications, now? Please, first it was rehashing the same flawed points, and not providing any new arguments (which as I pointed out, was clearly not the case), and now this? The only one instance I can see where my argument relied solely on such things was my argument regarding the nature in which Nihilus pulled his fleet out of a Gravity Well, and as always, you're whining about a perfectly valid style of argument. The meaning of the word "tear" quite clearly indicates that the entirety of the fleet was forcefully taken from the Mass Shadows of Malachor, and the word wouldn't have been included if it wasn't the intended message. You can argue that Nihilus may have pulled each ship from the gravity well one at a time all you want, but the "semantic," in this case, proves you wrong. [/B]

And after all of this time and 38 bans, you have still yet to win a debate, instead chooosing to go with denial describing yourself as a competent debater.

SO much Anger.

fools! you can say palpatine is the best sith ever till your face turns blue. you can say he can defeat one with the power to absorb planets with his hunger in the force singularily. this is the equivelent of fanboyism. to totally rely on the unproven word of lucas id like a little evidence, where did lucas say that sideous was the most powerful? and the sith spirits said "he has become the greatest that ever lived"
1., this is through their point of view.
2. they never said "the most powerful" they said the greatest. yea as in the same way windu called kenobi the greatest because he had mastered a classic form, not because he was the most powerful.
3. and in context, they were respecting his sacrifice and utter devotion to the force, not his power.

in conclusion, id like some proof that lucas said sideous is the most powerful. id also like some proof that lucas didnt mean in the sence that he could manipulate the entire senate so that the entire republic was inside his power, because power in minions is greater then power in battle prowess.

so there you are. oh yea, and please read the entire arguement before your pathetic insult, darth sexy.

sion is one of incredible lightsaber power just for the fact that causing him pain makes him stronger. so nihilus and sion would probably take a force crap on sideous.

you want proof of palpatine being the best, just go here
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t477847.html

thank you kindly for those most educating links. the question i wonder about most thou is wheather palpatine could actually take them both at one time.
since i dont know of a more powerful force user i would put nihilus at a close second in power of the force and i would put sion at most formidable opponent just because he cant die, and thats awesome. therefor, this looks like quite a fight. somehow i still doubt the potential for loss on nihilus's side a little more then on sideous's side.

actually, today i fought nihilus and it was quite educating.... apparently nihilus tried to feed off of a wound and was infected in the force or something. thats the only way i can tell that the exile survived.... then i kicked his smelly buns.

i wouldnt know weather or not nihilus could feed off of a powerful force user. his mask was going to be made out of revan's skull in the early development of the game, so they obviously meant for him to be powerful enough to kill revan.

so in light of the above, palpatine and nihilus and scion face off. within 20 minutes, palpatine has positioned scion next to his office window. he force grips his throat and slams him through the window. he holds him dangling above a 100 story drop (jedi knight 2 and 3 multiplayer style 🙂 ). nihilus force pushes sideous to interupt the force grip. suddenly he realises what he has condemned his companion to...

down below about 20 seconds later sion starts the long elevator trip back up too palpatine's penthouse office...

meanwhile palpatine and nihilus duel it out. clash after clash rings in the halls of the sith lord. finally, nihilus is tired from the heat of battle and tries to devour palpatine in the force. palpatine barely resists, and the effort this causes on both of them causes them to fall to their knees and keep fighting.

minutes later:
scion angrily pounds on the ambient speakers of the elevator hoping they will play duel of fates as he travels upwards and a slow speed.

scion and palpatine wear eachother out bashing at each other as they are nearly collapsing to the floor.

scion finally gets to the top. when the doors open, both of the sith are surprised to see that he must have landed in a thing of hay (assasin's creed style)

he rushes to the side of nihilus where sideous uses the most powerful force attack he can muster... force push...

scion was really getting the hang of skydiving without a parachute by now. he looped and flipped through the air. soon he hoped he would get to do it again....

nihilus's bone mask was crushed. blood seeped out through the cracks and edges. bitter anguish came over the defeated sith. his crimson lightsaber fell to the streets below, sucked out by the terrifying wind. the sith spoke in his strange language and fell to a lying position face up on the floor.

sideous was exausted. both as an old man and as a force user, he was drained. he could barely stand up and check his opponent, but when he did, nihilus slammed him to the ground, flipping him over his own body. he held sideous to the ground with defying anger. how could they have called this sith greater then himself? how could he possibly have more hate, more anger, or more power? the most powerful sith in history blead internally from the conflict and sudden blow to the face and chest as he was pressed face down into the ground, crushed by the power of nihilus. he levitated in the air, feeling like a man who was being hung in rapidly shrinking clothing in a prison cell with the walls enclosing. the sensation of death crept through his body. he could feal himself stop breathing. he could feel his heart stop pumping... he could feel his eyes closing. nihilus's chest glowed a bright orange, and almost in slow motion, a beam of pure hunger ripped out, reaching for the dark lord sideous's power. suddenly, sidous lightninged nihilus, and nihilus fell back, his bloody open wounds instantly cauterized by the heat of the arc. he died. then sion ran in rage and pushed sideous out the window. this time, scion fell in boiling nuclear waste and turned into gas, but so did sideous. all 3 died. the fricking end.

look ma, i wrote a star wars novel!

Personally, I liked it.

You should send that in to Lucus

thanks 🙂