Rots Palpatine vs Nilihus and Sion

It was nice debating with you, Janus. I'll take a look back in the morning to continue the next salvo.

Make sure you answer the big question so I can decide whether or not to prepare the big argument.

🙂

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Wait, so you're saying Sidious is going to win against Nihilus because he's going to use some obscure looping technique and what? Nihilus and Sion are going to just stand there and die?

That's just plain stupid. Sidious is going to have two Sith Lords attacking him, using the Force in ways he probably hasn't had to deal with. It won't be like Larry, Curly, and Moe who just stand there while he kills them with the Psycho Crusher. Nihilus himself was able to overcome Traya; Traya herself was able to kill three Jedi Masters with a wave of her hand. I'll be damned if they didn't get a single finger moved when she attacked. They were stone dead.

Frankly, I'm going to let Escape handle this because I don't have the time nor the patience to debate a closed case anymore. You two enjoy.

This from a poster who has yet to ever make his own argument, provide accurate sources or proofs, or even realize when he's commiting logical mutilation.

Please, prove this or shut right up. [/B]

Ironic that everybody has yet to reveal their arguments. The thing is I don't have to. I can just direct you to Escape and LS posts about Sidous being #1 and then having you ***** about the validity of them as you often do in a lost cause. What is your justification for the ancient sith claiming Palpatine is #1? Were they drunk? Are they not qualified to make that kind of statement? Hilarious.

Also Janus, claiming that I am a Sidious fanboy doesn't make it so, especially since your claim is unwarranted and flat out ridiculous. I could make the same claim about you being an ancient sith fanboy but there's a difference. I don't like Sidious and I was an ancient sith fanboy until I read all of the facts. You are still stuck with your losing arguments and overinflated ego. I would assume that someone with your intelligence, alleged debating skills, and flat out age, would be willing to admit defeat and stop wasting everyone's time with closed cases.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
[B]tdtd:

Wait, so you're saying Sidious is going to win against Nihilus because he's going to use some obscure looping technique and what? Nihilus and Sion are going to just stand there

That's just plain stupid. Sidious is going to have two Sith Lords attacking him, using the Force in ways he probably hasn't had to deal with.

Now, let's put two pieces of fact together to make an observation:

Traya is clearly head and shoulders above the three Jedi Masters, who themselves were pretty remarkable for their era. Some people here would have it that they are weak as kittens, but that's bullshit- these were Jedi Masters with incredible Force powers.

The fact that Traya can snap her fingers and kill them at will (And latter an entire Sith ambush party) only hints to her own considerable powers.

Part two, Nihilus literally schools Traya.

Sion beats her like a dog while Nihilus shoves her all over the place. She was helpless. She could do nothing in return. She was 'cast down' and broken before them. Traya, who can kill Jedi masters with a wave of her hand.

So my observation is thus: If Sion and Nihilus can casually overcome her and wreck her style, what in the hell is RotS Sidious going to do? And don't give me this shit about OT-era Sidious either. That's a generation later.

If you believe that Sidious is going to talk Sion to death, you're just sadly delusional.

Please, don't be ridiculous. The Exile is able to use Sion's despair and the situation to his/her advantage, and it has ****-all to do with "master manipulator" skills. Sidious and Sion obviously don't have the same love-hate relationship as Sion and Traya and the Exile. If you're arguing that a plot device would extend to entirely different circumstances (Ignoring the widely-held idea that Versus matches are to be neutral grounds for combat) then you're really smoking on that exhaust pipe too often. By this sort of logic, baby Anakin is the Chosen One and MUST destroy the Sith. Ergo, he wrecks all Sith Lords who come his way, except Obi-Wan.

Right, because Nihilus can't see Sidious right in front of him. Apparently he sees at a cosmic scale like Traya said.... oh wait, OMFG teh thurd partie r teh failabble!!!111

Seriously, stop eating paste and wake up. Sidious is NOT going to conjure a Force ability which requires concentration and effort and oh, TIME in a small room (especially when said ability oh, rips space and time) while Sion and Nihilus are trying to make his balls into cufflinks.

1. Sion really did butcher Jedi Masters like his job. Or did you not play KotOR II? He's directly responsible for the murder of exiled and hiding Jedi, and he kills Master Vash on Korriban. It's not the feat so much as the fact that he's obviously not some low-rung goon with a lightsaber and no talent.

2. Finest swordsman in the order's history, taken literally by yourself because it fits your argument, seems to contradict the movie representation of the fight (Which is itself ultimate canon according to Leland Chee). If the order's finest stand around and let M. Bison stab them with all the warning in the world, then the order by this sort of logic must be pathetic. Is that also your assertion?

4. I'm sure T3-M4 knows what happened at Malachor V too. Wait, maybe he can take on Sion and Nihilus too. Apparently being aware of a past event makes you the master of all that occured there. No wonder I seek to become a history teacher.

LS:

Where is the "evidence"? LFL has yet to make a claim that Sidious is the best of all time. In-universe claims and your own personal assertions don't really replace official doctrine.

I'm sorry, it's just that the entire scenario seems pretty uh... silly to me? Sidious is the best Dark Lord of all time, most powerful, most uber, most perfect... And he's overcome by the non-trained Leia, a baby, and Luke "I ain't got the powers to control falling to the dark side" Skywalker. That's a bit like being lobbed into a reactor shaft by a cripple who's over six feet tall. I mean, really. Talk about blunders.

.... Skipping some parts here, because this argument is becoming yet another "Sidious is the best, if you disagree with this you are our mortal enemy" type argument,

and I wasn't really hoping for one of those. It's sort of impossible NOT to have one though, with the folks around here.

Palpatine's butchery of three of the Order's finest swordsmen.

I'm sick of this quote being thrown around. I read that damn book and it didn't say ANYWHERE that those jedi were anything more than average. They were obviously just 3 random jedi who happened to be in the vacinity at the time.

Easy. He kills Nihilus in saber combat, then takes down Sion with manipulating.

Not to mention Nihilus can't eat what he can't sense..

This technique isn't as unbeatable as some would think. Other Jedi seem to cope when facing Jacen ( Katarn & Luke) and Sidious didn't use it well against Luke in DE or against Yoda in ROTS so there is no support for your claim that it would work on the Duo

. No one here has denied that Darth Sion was responsible for the deaths of Jedi Masters. What we have denied is your implication that that somehow places him on a tier equal to or higher than the Emperor. Since you've failed to substantiate the relative potency of these so-called Jedi Masters and the circumstances in which they were defeated, you've essentially offered nothing to prove your point.

Except that it puts Sion over Sids in terms of Kill-count. And he survived a war and probably killed hundreds. And before you bang on about power diference let me just say that there is nothing to indicate that the ROTS era was any better than the KOTOR one. By Oclams Razer they are most likely on par.

Count Dooku calling him master and the veritable fear he felt of Darth Sidious would be a notch in his master's cap, as would fear from the Ancient Sith be a notch in Ragnos's.

'Great liars can make the world stand on its head and dance for them', Unfortunately that doesn't help Sids here.

This is a faulty claim and you know it. When have Sion and Nihilus shown us anything regarding saber combat?

They survived th Mando wars which is good. They were trained by Traya ( who counld fight exeptionally well with one hand) and they had close duels with the Far from average Exile. Not quite on Sisious' level but capable and both could take him.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I'm sick of this quote being thrown around. I read that damn book and it didn't say [b]ANYWHERE that those jedi were anything more than average. They were obviously just 3 random jedi who happened to be in the vacinity at the time.[/B]

The masters are the best of the order, what could you possibly do? Page 323.

More than average EH? Despite the fact that lucas has stated PT jedi are superior than Kotor jedi.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Unsupported. There is nothing to suggest that Sidious would be able to do this to Sion in any way.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Firstly, he doesn't even know who Kraya is.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Secondly, he was not in her esteem which is the only reason that Sion listened to the Exile in the first place.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

This technique isn't as unbeatable as some would think.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Other Jedi seem to cope when facing Jacen ( Katarn & Luke)

According to your pal wookiepedia, jacen never removed himself from the force during the fight

Solo was a formidable opponent, even for Katarn's skills, and the Jedi Master had to protect the weaker members of the team as he dueled the former Jedi Knight and now young Sith Lord. As Caedus claimed, Katarn was unaware of what he was fighting against, and the Sith's brutality during the duel saw the Jedi Master hard-pressed to win the advantage, though the mission itself was only a diversion to place the tracking device upon Solo. Forced to defend Hu'lya from Solo's attacks, Katarn sent his saber spinning at Jacen, only to have it deflected and return to his hand. When his opponent gestured towards him, Kyle prepared himself for a contest of telekinesis, though he was caught off-guard by Solo's tactic; the Sith Lord grasped a passing GAG speeder with the Force and sent it cannonading into the Jedi Master's back. Katarn was catapulted forward and impaled on Solo's blade. The Sith Lord pulled his lightsaber free and turned to finish off the rest of the team, unaware that the tracking device had been attached to his cloak by Dorvald, and that Katarn was still alive. Although a grief-consumed Mithric was slain by Solo, Valin and Dorvald dragged Katarn to safety while Hu'lya made good her escape. Unfortunately for the severely wounded Master, Solo's blade had punctured his lung, and Kyle's lowered immune system was unable to prevent the incursion of an infectious plague that the Commenori, opposed to the Galactic Alliance, had unleashed on Coruscant. However, against all odds, Kyle Katarn survived both the serious wound and the diseases he picked up in the undercity sewers. On his return to Endor he was healed by Cilghal, with yet another successful mission to his name. Katarn later regained enough of his strength to accompany the Jedi on their mission to the Corellian system, where they rescued the abducted Hapan Chume'da Allana from Solo's clutches

Shortly after the Battle of Kashyyyk, Luke said that Jacen now commanded at least master-level abilities, but will never rise up to the rank of Jedi Master. Not only that, but when asked how to solve the problem that had become Caedus, Luke, not being able to come up with an answer, left it up to Kyp Durron on to decide how to deal with Caedus. The plan resulted in Caedus fighting a Jedi strike team consisting of, Master Kyle Katarn, Knights Valin Horn, Kolir Hu'lya, Thann Mithric and an apprentice whom Caedus had sponsored, Seha Dorvald. During the ensuing fight, Caedus severely wounded Katarn by impaling him in the chest, which brought a rash attack from Mithric who received a deflected blaster bolt in his chest from Caedus and followed it up by decapitating the Falleen Jedi.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

and Sidious didn't use it well against Luke in DE or against Yoda in ROTS so there is no support for your claim that it would work on the Duo

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

Except that it puts Sion over Sids in terms of Kill-count.

LOL talk about bitching about "unsupported" claims.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

And he survived a war and probably killed hundreds.

Your beyond stupid.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

And before you bang on about power diference let me just say that there is nothing to indicate that the ROTS era was any better than the KOTOR one. By Oclams Razer they are most likely on par.

He clearly states that the PT jedi are superior to any order before them.

So yes, PT jedi > your precious Kotor jedi.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

'Great liars can make the world stand on its head and dance for them', Unfortunately that doesn't help Sids here.

The Rebels were turning out to be more troublesome than many had expected. The Emperor had known it would be thus, of course; the resistance had not been a surprise to him. The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith to have ever existed.
-- Death Star, page 76.

"...Yoda could defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
-- The New Essential Chronology, page 84

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.
-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 72.

Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Empire's End, one of the Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine.

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: Palpatine at his peak.

Essential Chronology: the most powerful Sith who had ever lived, Emperor Palpatine had returned from the grave."

[The Galactic Emperor] had succeeded where all others failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe, spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies.

Originally posted by Darth Exodus

They survived th Mando wars which is good. They were trained by Traya ( who counld fight exeptionally well with one hand) and they had close duels with the [b]Far from average Exile. Not quite on Sisious' level but capable and both could take him. [/B]

The burden of proof falls on you.

A. where's the quote saying Palpatine knows the looping technique ?

B. the duo takes this no way Palps can take on them botha nd win

Originally posted by Darth Exodus
I'm sick of this quote being thrown around. I read that damn book and it didn't say [b]ANYWHERE that those jedi were anything more than average. They were obviously just 3 random jedi who happened to be in the vacinity at the time.

Unsupported. There is nothing to suggest that Sidious would be able to do this to Sion in any way. Firstly, he doesn't even know who Kraya is. Secondly, he was not in her esteem which is the only reason that Sion listened to the Exile in the first place.

This technique isn't as unbeatable as some would think. Other Jedi seem to cope when facing Jacen ( Katarn & Luke) and Sidious didn't use it well against Luke in DE or against Yoda in ROTS so there is no support for your claim that it would work on the Duo

Except that it puts Sion over Sids in terms of Kill-count.

And he survived a war and probably killed hundreds.

And before you bang on about power diference let me just say that there is nothing to indicate that the ROTS era was any better than the KOTOR one. By Oclams Razer they are most likely on par.

'Great liars can make the world stand on its head and dance for them', Unfortunately that doesn't help Sids here.

They survived th Mando wars which is good.

They were trained by Traya ( who counld fight exeptionally well with one hand)

[Quote]
and they had close duels with the Far from average Exile. Not quite on Sisious' level but capable and both could take him. [/B]

A couple of things:

1) Quey'tek isn't "looping out of the Force," as you put it. It simply makes detection by a Force-user less likely. It's a stealth technique, not a defenseive one, as it requires concentration and can be broken or breached by distractions or skilled individuals, respectively. Case in point, Ventress toyed with Obi-Wan using the ability in CD, and Dooku was located by him and Skywalker in LoE.

I'm not saying the ability you described doesn't exist, but it's not Quey'tek.

2) The power that you are describing - if I'm interpreting it correctly - would be a double-edged sword. If Sidious is willingly cutting himself off from the Force to escape Nihilus' fatal drain, then he also loses access to his arsenal of powers, at which point he becomes defenseless and gets skewered instantly.

Unless you're argument's as flimsy as it looks from here - which I doubt it is - fill me in on the details before you continue.

3) Nihilus' lack of eyes is so far from a valid argument it's not even funny. While he sees primarily on a cosmic scale, the fact that he holds "conversations" with Visas and later duels the Exile is clear evidence that he can sense the individual as well, especially one as powerful as Palpatine.

4) Much of the pro-Sidious argument hinges on the newer Sith somehow being able to immediately discern that Nihilus is some Force-sucking monster, hop out of the Force to evade an attack that he magically knows is coming, and manage without a connection to the Force to slaughter both of the KotOR Sith without breaking a sweat. Can't say that works for me.

Chances are that Palpatine isn't walking out of this one alive, and thank you Escape for coming to that conclusion yourself.

~ Upon looking at the thread again to make sure that last statement was accurate, I saw that this was RotS Sidious - I thought it was the DE incarnation. In that case, he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell.

Nihilus' duel was close, according to Visas he was winning for half the fight.

and that was three-on-one with him being doubly weakened

Originally posted by Faunus
It's a stealth technique, not a defenseive one, as it requires concentration and can be broken or breached by distractions or skilled individuals, respectively. Case in point, Ventress toyed with Obi-Wan using the ability in CD, and Dooku was located by him and Skywalker in LoE.

Is there conclusive evidence to corroborate your claim, Faunus, that the full effectiveness of Quey'tek is reliant on "concentration"? Because I do not personally recall any such evidence; consider that Darth Sidious was able to shield himself from the full scrutiny of the Jedi Council for well over a decade, despite occupying the same planet as the Jedi Temple, and despite his considerable political pressures as Supreme Chancellor. Are you suggesting that, throughout all of this, he was concentrating on the technique the whole time? Though Palpatine has demonstrated a relatively peerless genius and sense of willpower, I doubt it's that strong. Furthermore, your citations of the failed attempts to utilize the technique by Asajj Ventress and Count Dooku don't necessarily apply; they certainly aren't comparable to Darth Sidious in terms of strength in the Force, and both of them lack his experience with Quey'tek, so who's to say that he's bound by the same limitations?

Chances are that Palpatine isn't walking out of this one alive, and thank you Escape for coming to that conclusion yourself.

As I have told my detractors before, I know full well when my "Sith of choice" is beaten or outmatched, though I'd personally like to see their response in a similar situation; I'd gamble that the objectivity wouldn't be contagious.

~ Upon looking at the thread again to make sure that last statement was accurate, I saw that this was RotS Sidious - I thought it was the DE incarnation. In that case, he doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell.

Hell must have cooled down a bit since the last time I paid a visit. Palpatine will certainly disable Lord Sion -- that KotOR Sith, in particular, has not demonstrated no skills comparable to the Galactic Emperor's, despite Janus's assertions to the contrary.

Originally posted by Gideon
Is there conclusive evidence to corroborate your claim, Faunus, that the full effectiveness of Quey'tek is reliant on "concentration
Because I do not personally recall any such evidence; consider that Darth Sidious was able to shield himself from the full scrutiny of the Jedi Council for well over a decade, despite occupying the same planet as the Jedi Temple, and despite his considerable political pressures as Supreme Chancellor. Are you suggesting that, throughout all of this, he was concentrating on the technique the whole time?

Though Palpatine has demonstrated a relatively peerless genius and sense of willpower, I doubt it's that strong. Furthermore, your citations of the failed attempts to utilize the technique by Asajj Ventress and Count Dooku don't necessarily apply; they certainly aren't comparable to Darth Sidious in terms of strength in the Force, and both of them lack his experience with Quey'tek, so who's to say that he's bound by the same limitations?

As I have told my detractors before, I know full well when my "Sith of choice" is beaten or outmatched, though I'd personally like to see their response in a similar situation; I'd gamble that the objectivity wouldn't be contagious.

Palpatine will certainly disable Lord Sion -- that KotOR Sith, in particular, has not demonstrated no skills comparable to the Galactic Emperor's, despite Janus's assertions to the contrary.

Originally posted by FaunusMy point, as I thought was evident, was that I wasn't sure if Palpatine was actually using Quey'tek. Since I'm altogether unfamilar with most post-RotJ depictions of Palpatine's power I have no idea whatsoever as to when, where, and in what context this "looping" technique was used. Quey'tek in no way involves disconnecting oneself from the Force, at least not in Cestus Deception and Labyrinth of Evil, the only two sources I'm familiar with that cite the ability by name.

This is not Return of the Jedi-era Palpatine. This is Revenge of the Sith-era Palpatine. Palpatine did use Quey'tek during the prequel trilogy as a measure to cloak his powers from the Jedi Order. Furthermore, I am not trying to contend that it involves "disconnecting one's self" from the Force, but it does erase one's Force signature. The others are right: Nihilus would not be able to sense Palpatine through the Force and -- since it doesn't disconnect him -- he would be free to attack Nihilus. I'm not saying that it will come down to that, but it leaves the possibility open.

See above.

I did. And it's been settled, but Ventress and Dooku's strength in the Force does not rival the Emperor's, he's not necessarily bound by the same limitations.

Whatever.

The expected response.

None of this answers the questions I posed as to the nature of Palpatine's technique. If he is temporarily cutting himself off from the Force to escape Nihilus, how can he still access his powers? I'm assuming you guys have an explanation, becayse if you don't then you'd be arguing that a powerless Palpatine could evade Nihilus' drain while surviving Sion's onslaught.

I'm not arguing that Palpatine can "loop out of the Force", because I'm not aware as to whether or not he can do that. I'd question the others as to the validity of their claims (unless it's mentioned in his RPG stats). But, using Quey'tek, Palpatine is easily capable of disabling Sion. It'd be hard to argue that that moment's distraction wouldn't give Nihilus the opportunity to kill the Emperor.

Originally posted by 123KID
and that was three-on-one with him being doubly weakened

lies and slander
everyone knows powerful Sith have the dark side technique Force Orgasm where they can will themselves to climax through their extreme hatred and rage at never getting laid

Originally posted by 123KID
lies and slander
everyone knows powerful Sith ahve the dark side technique Force Orgasm where they can will themselves to climax through their extreme hatred and rage at never getting laid

I think Sion's penis has long since rotted off. Nihilus probably has a big bazooka penis which he raped Visas with.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
😂

I think Sion's penis has long since rotted off. Nihilus probably has a big bazooka penis which he raped Visas with.

RAPE IS NOT FUNNY NOR CUTE, GET YOU TAIL OFF MY BOARD NOW!!!!

Originally posted by Man of Christ
RAPE IS NOT FUNNY NOR CUTE, GET YOU TAIL OFF MY BOARD NOW!!!!