Thanos HotU vs. PR Beyonder

Originally posted by King Kandy

Actually upon further research, you're right.

Originally posted by King Kandy

But this would only apply to the debate if you proved that Beyonder's powers somehow had jurisdiction over something that THOTU's didn't.
Until you prove that, they are at best equal.

But ultimately/finally I landed at this:

Originally posted by Mr Master
I hope I presented some thought provoking reasons,

but again, I'll say for the record, imo, stalemate.

Interesting. I disagree, but I can see where you're coming from.

It's just that imo, Beyonder's powers were clearly that of a comic character. He was a character, he had flaws and limits (more in terms of his mental state then his power.)

Also he used up a lot of power killing Death, so his power couldn't have been infinite... even with multiple levels of infinity, infinite power can't be reduced or fractioned. THOTU's powers on the other hand were conclusivly infinite.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Interesting. I disagree, but I can see where you're coming from.

Originally posted by King Kandy

It's just that imo,
Beyonder's powers were clearly that of a comic character.
He was a character, he had flaws and limits
(more in terms of his mental state then his power.)

I think we can agree on that.

I've actually used the same argument for THOTI,
against cats who claim his non-omnipotence due to him needing to re-create Marvel,
instead of just fixing the flaw.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Also he used up a lot of power killing Death,
so his power couldn't have been infinite... even with multiple levels of infinity, infinite power can't be reduced or fractioned.

On the otherhand, at that point, Beyonder had already limited himself greatly.

Originally posted by King Kandy

THOTU's powers on the other hand were conclusivly infinite.

Originally posted by Mr Master
If Shooter would've made Beyonder what he was intended to be from beginning to end,
there would've been no inbetween the beginning and end,
just the beginning (one panel) and the end (second panel)
which wouldn't be much of a story.

I think we can agree on that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I've actually used the same argument for THOTI,
against cats who claim his non-omnipotence due to him needing to re-create Marvel,
instead of just fixing the flaw.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And Thanos with all his power, not just a lot, couldn't fix the flaw without the re-creation,
so the door swings both ways.

On the otherhand, at that point, Beyonder had already limited himself greatly.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree, but there are some who use petty details to disclaim that.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Maybe so, but that's NOT how he was written. This isn't like THOTU,
Beyonder appeared in hundreds of comics
and they all showed him with some sort of limit
(mental or occasionally in terms of power.)

And I have to disagree friend,
most of those issues Beyonder appeared in, in fact,
were depictions of a Supreme unlimited force.

You can't make statements like that K unless you're sure.
I can send you every Beyonder appearance via AIM/iChat if you wish.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Fortunatly, i'm not one of those people.
So there's no need to use that argument on me.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Well that's true.
But my point is that logically,
Beyonder's power couldn't have been infinite. It might as well have been infinite, but if you can take away some,
and have Beyonder be reduced, then it couldn't have been infinite.

He said he put a lot of his power is in that cup,
he never stated what level that put him on.

And don't forget, Beyonder had limited himself at that point,
so that may well have been a lot of the power he limited himself to.

Also,
why are you overlooking Beyonder's ridiculous feat,
that screams out not infinity, but infinity beyond-beyond infinity.

I'm talking about the Multiverse he created from scratch,
at-least Quintillions of times more infinite than the entire infinite Marvel Multiverse.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Thanos had TOAA's power, it's stated on panel.
Beyonder being Shooter's avatar was only ever in an interview.

And the Cosmic hierarchy (LT included) literally becoming "desperate"
and another time "trembling" speaks volumes.
The Hierarchy didn't fear Thanos.

Also,
that interview doesn't put Beyonder as Shooter's avatar,
Shooter literally put Beyonder on a status of "god"
before there was Genesis withIN our own Universe.

Sounds like he was beyond even a writer/artist avatar.
Obviously not above the actual real life writer/artist,
but above the avatar of a writer/artist.

Originally posted by King Kandy

And i'm not one of them.

Originally posted by Astner
But if that's correct than the Beyonder must have fought Molecule man with great limitations, I don't know if they were subconscious limitations or whatever.
But to say that Molecule man was close to the Beyonder in power would be the same as saying Captain America is close to Molceule man in power, wouldn't it?

Originally posted by Astner
Did you miss this?

Also,
that interview doesn't put Beyonder as Shooter's avatar,
Shooter literally put Beyonder on a status of "god"
before there was Genesis withIN our own Universe.

Sounds like he was beyond even a writer/artist avatar.
Obviously not above the actual real life writer/artist,
but above the avatar of a writer/artist.

But, are we to take Shooter's word for it? Shooter may have meant the Beyonder to be above himself, but would that apply to any TOAA avatar that has ever been seen on panel?

Take the Kirby avatar for instance in the FF arc. That avatar was actually drawing characters on panel. He even drew the FF on his canvas and it allowed them to return home. If the Beyonder battled this avatar, couldn't Kirby just draw a depiction of the Beyonder on panel...and just trash it...sending the Beyonder into Oblivion.

I know comic books are fallible and even though they try to follow continuity...mistakes are still made...so, I can see how Shooter may put the Beyonder even above himself...but, I don't think the Beyonder would be above EVERY avatar ever displayed on panel....especially this Kirby avatar which could just draw the Beyonder out of existence.

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

But, are we to take Shooter's word for it?

Shooter may have meant the Beyonder to be above himself,
but would that apply to any TOAA avatar that has ever been seen on panel?

Only the editorial staff has more pull than them.
They usually appear as themselves when throwing themselves in a Marvel comic.

The thing is Rebel,
Shooter was both the Editor in-chief and the Writer of Beyonder/Secret Wars.

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

Take the Kirby avatar for instance in the FF arc.
That avatar was actually drawing characters on panel.
He even drew the FF on his canvas and it allowed them to return home.

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

If the Beyonder battled this avatar,
couldn't Kirby just draw a depiction of the Beyonder on panel...
and just trash it...sending the Beyonder into Oblivion.

But we have to remember,
the guy who elevated Beyonder to his status was not only the Writer,
but the Editor in-chief as well.

That somewhat raises the bar above just Writers/Artists.

Originally posted by Southern_Rebel

I know comic books are fallible
and even though they try to follow continuity...
mistakes are still made...
so, I can see how Shooter may put the Beyonder even above himself...
but,
I don't think the Beyonder would be above EVERY avatar ever displayed on panel....
especially this Kirby avatar
which could just draw the Beyonder out of existence.

In the end,
I rather not even include the plausibility of Beyonder vs a representitive avatar,
we should keep it withIN the fictional reality where characters are bound by Writers/Artists.

So ultimately,
I'd say Beyonder vs the Kirbiesk avatar is really an inconsequential debate,
it produces too many paradoxes.

THOTI is the ultimate Supreme power.
Classic Beyonder was the ultimate Supreme power.

Stalemate. 😄

Originally posted by Mr Master
Exactly 51 issues during the second installment.

And I have to disagree friend,
most of those issues Beyonder appeared in, in fact,
were depictions of a Supreme unlimited force.

You can't make statements like that K unless you're sure.
I can send you every Beyonder appearance via AIM/iChat if you wish.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Who said he was reduced?

He said he put a lot of his power is in that cup,
he never stated what level that put him on.

And don't forget, Beyonder had limited himself at that point,
so that may well have been a lot of the power he limited himself to.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Also,
why are you overlooking Beyonder's ridiculous feat,
that screams out not infinity, but infinity beyond-beyond infinity.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm talking about the Multiverse he created from scratch,
at-least Quintillions of times more infinite than the entire infinite Marvel Multiverse.

Originally posted by Mr Master
On Panel Beyonder was stated to be the incarnation of Supreme power as well.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And the Cosmic hierarchy (LT included) literally becoming "desperate"
and another time "trembling" speaks volumes.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Hierarchy didn't fear Thanos.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Also,
that interview doesn't put Beyonder as Shooter's avatar,
Shooter literally put Beyonder on a status of "god"
before there was Genesis withIN our own Universe.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Sounds like he was beyond even a writer/artist avatar.
Obviously not above the actual real life writer/artist,
but above the avatar of a writer/artist.

Originally posted by Mr Master
All the OAA/god representitive avatars are the same.
They represent the writers/artists.

Only the editorial staff has more pull than them.
They usually appear as themselves when throwing themselves in a Marvel comic.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The thing is Rebel,
Shooter was both the Editor in-chief and the Writer of Beyonder/Secret Wars.

Originally posted by Mr Master
But we have to remember,
the guy who elevated Beyonder to his status was not only the Writer,
but the Editor in-chief as well.

That somewhat raises the bar above just Writers/Artists.

Originally posted by Mr Master
In the end,
I rather not even include the plausibility of Beyonder vs a representitive avatar,
we should keep it withIN the fictional reality where characters are bound by Writers/Artists.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So ultimately,
I'd say Beyonder vs the Kirbiesk avatar is really an inconsequential debate,
it produces too many paradoxes.

Originally posted by Mr Master
THOTI is the ultimate Supreme power.
Classic Beyonder was the ultimate Supreme power.

Stalemate. 😄

Why is this duplicate thread still open? I mean for crying outloud the thread starter could have at least looked at the versus forum thread directory.

Whatever. This thread has taken off, I prefer the debate in this one anyway.

I am still shocked at Mr Masters change of opinion here. At first he kept saying that Thanos won and now it seems he believes in a stalemate favoring Beyonder.

I still find it hard to believe with Thanos feats on panel how anyone would say he loses here.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Well many of them display him being supermely supreme,
but nearly all of them show him being flawe MENTALLY.
There are also a handfull that show his power being limited in some way.

MOST of then depict the opposite of what you're claiming.

And we all know, Beyonder LIMITED himself to fit in.

Originally posted by King Kandy

I never said he was weak!
But he stated on panel that he was weaker after the cup then before it.
Even if he only used 0.0000001% of his power in the cup,
it would still mean that taking away a part reduced the whole,
and would mean his power wasn't infinite

Originally posted by King Kandy

Because it didn't have much to do with my point.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Even taking transfinite numbers into account,
that statement is all kinds of wrong.
Infinite can mean different things, and it gets confusing.
I'm not sure what to make of that one.

The Marvel Reality was an Infinite Multiverse,
Beyonder created a Multiverse that was infinitely larger.

Marvel Reality = a Droplet of water.
Beyond Realm = an Ocean.

Originally posted by King Kandy

No one's arguing that he wasn't the most supremely powerful character in Marvel at the time.
But statements you made seem like you were implying that a comic character
was more powerful then the writer... which is just wrong.

If Shooter wished for Beyonder to be above avatars,
then Beyonder is above avatars.

I NEVER said Beyonder was above Real people.

Originally posted by King Kandy

But they still tried to take him down.
Not head on, but they weren't exactly to scared to take shots at him (Beyonder'sbane anyone?)

The rest of the hierarchy (including the LT) were literally Trembling with fear,
at this point.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Clearly they should have.
It's even pointed out how immensly stupid they in fighting him.

Originally posted by King Kandy

So what's your point?
Jim Shooter doesn't have any jurisiction over the REAL "God"...
Beyonder was only ever a comic book character.

You and I on the other hand,
really have no jurisdiction over what Marvel does.

Originally posted by King Kandy

It's impossible to be above the Writers avatar...
by definition they are the ones controlling the story in the first place.

But over avatars representing writers?

Most assuredly.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Would be true,
but outside of interviews Beyonder was never intended
to be anything other then a comic book character...
in fact it is impossible for him to be anything else.

Of course he wasn't "God" of the Bible,
or any "god" in real life.

Shooter was just making a comparison,
as to elevate Beyonder (withIN Comics)
to an unbelievable plateau.

Originally posted by King Kandy

So? This battle isn't Jim Shooter vs. THOTU... that would just be stupid.

Rebel and I were discussing the differences between writers and Shooter.

I explained in simple truth,
Shooter was both the Writer, and the Editor-in chief of Marvel.

Which outweighs the power of just a Writer.

No one said Anything at all about Shooter vs anyone.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Real Person vs. Comic Book character=Real person always wins.
The comic book character is just a piece of paper.

Originally posted by King Kandy

Yeah, but that doesn't really matter.
Beyonder is not above the writers,
we both agree to that... It would be foolishness to say otherwise.

Originally posted by King Kandy

But the thing is,
Thanos w/ THOTU is basically a writer's avatar.
They both have the power of the writers WITHIN comics.

I still said for the record,

this battle was a stalemate.

Originally posted by King Kandy

What paradoxes? The avatar wins easily, it has true ultimate power.

of course.

In a Comic?

Anything is possible.

Originally posted by King Kandy

But we're not quite sure just how ultimately supreme Beyonder actually was.

Is there another kind?

Originally posted by quanchi112

I am still shocked at Mr Masters change of opinion here.
At first he kept saying that Thanos won
and now it seems he believes in a stalemate favoring Beyonder.

In another thread at another time,
yes, Mr Master said that.

I already pinted out WHY my opinion changed,
to stalemate.

note* (visit page one)

Originally posted by quanchi112

I still find it hard to believe with Thanos feats on panel
how anyone would say he loses here.

Beyonder has the greatest feat in Marvel's history btw.

Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
It isn't hard to get. Like one of the people I call dimension Gods, like Shuma Gorath, who are omnipotent in their dimension, now take, say...Mad Jim Jaspers, who is able to bend reality to a nigh omnipotent degree on an Omniversal scale, he would beat Shuma IN his dimension.

you're right, it's not that hard to get. in a different thread i actually gave this definition of omnipotence that is from one of the many dictionary.coms:

omnipotence:All-powerful. The term is also used generically to describe numerous beings possessing vast power, which, although not unlimited, by far surpasses that of most sentient beings.

now i've REPEATEDLY said in this and other threads that if THE ABOVE is the definition of omnipotence you choose to accept, then, great!

however, that is NOT the standard definition. shuma is most certainly NOT omnipotent, any more than odin is, or lt, or any other being in marvel. there DO exist levels of infinity. there are NOT subsets of omnipotence EXCEPT if you allow for them in the comicbook world.

but you're right -- it isn't hard. i've said that all along. 🙂

and mm -- you say stalemate, but wouldn't the beyonder's realm have been part of 'everything' (as you say) that thanos absorbed into himself when he wiped everything out?

I don't think Beyonder's realm existed at that point...

but if it did . . .? 😖hifty: