The John 3:16 & 4:16 flaw?

* 🤨 what a bunch of whiners... 😆

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes I do. As a songwriter, I have 3 (and one in the works) music CDs. Now I'm not the one and only son of god, but there are a lot of my words that could be collected after I die.

* who cares? that's not the point...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, again, where are the writings of Jesus?

I think the answer is simple. Jesus was never taught to write. Jesus was a teacher, not a scribe.

* no, it is illogical to conclude that a person who has no writings cannot write...

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,"
Luke 4:16-17

* there you go, He knows how to read, He is not illiterate...

Originally posted by Da Pittman
As soon as I get pawned I will admit it, I’ve been before but so far you haven’t even come close. Do you know what wine is??? If it is not fermented then it is not wine but grape juice, without fermentation which is the reason wine is not grape juice.

* wrong, go to the dictionary, wines may be fermented and unfermented, not all wines are alcoholic...

"And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now."
John 2:10

* the wine Jesus created was not alcoholic, true, it may crack you up but it's true... people who tasted it proved it's a good wine, they will not be drunk with the good wine Jesus created...

Originally posted by Da Pittman
OK, let’s assume that you are correct for the sake of the argument and God is not all-knowing which you would be the first to state this. If God is all seeing and is supposed to transcend time and space and sees all that was, is and will be then he would already seen what you will do in the future. Hence he has already seen your life decisions and knows the path that you will take there for you do not have free will.
I wrote this and read your post so there is my proof. 😉

* you overlooked the argument i said about Abraham's... proves you don't listen as well...

Originally posted by Da Pittman
How is it weird logic to expect the son of God to read and write? He was sent here to teach all of mankind the lessons of God for all time, every thing that he did or said was written down for him but nothing in his own hand? This is a man that is supposed to have the wisdom of the ages, the ability to create miracles and so on and couldn’t perform the simplest of tasks of reading and writing?

* or did He? pawned again?

Originally posted by Robtard
Correction: Why would God make himself illiterate?

Because as you well know, according to Christian mythology, Jesus and God are one and the same.

* according to the Bible, Jesus and God are not one being... but They are one, as in united...

Originally posted by Deja~vu
PJ, you need to prove that since it was Paul that told the followers not to be drunk when he got there. He didn't say DON'T DRINK.

Paul told Timothy to "use" wine. Paul told him to use a "little wine,"

I guess we should damn the Pilgrims to hell since even the children did drink with meals.

* wines can be used as remedies, even in culinary arts, used as flavorings... "to be drunk" is a lot different than "using wine"...

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Christians, if its okay to drink wine, why not smoke?

* "use wine", if you get drunk, the wine "used" you... smoking is another thing, it damages your health, there's nothing beneficial in smoking... 😉

Originally posted by Robtard
If wine doesn't contain alcohol, then it wouldn't be wine (as noted), so Jesus/apostles wouldn't have called it wine.

I also doubt the technology existed 2k years ago to ferment grapes and then separate the alcohol from the product.

Well, he could have used his God-powers, is that mentioned in the Bible as one of Christ feats?

* you guys should know that wines may be fermented or unfermented juice...

* hope this clears it up...

Nothing beneficial about weed? Are you serious? Glaucoma for one and nausea after chemo.

The wine was in all probability alcoholic. Not only did the technology not exist then, Jews are allowed to drink.

Originally posted by peejayd
* who cares? that's not the point...

If you don’t want a question answered, then don’t ask the question.

Originally posted by peejayd
* no, it is illogical to conclude that a person who has no writings cannot write...

That is correct under today’s standard, but that is incorrect under the standard of education at the time of Jesus.

Originally posted by peejayd
"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to [b]read.
And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,"
Luke 4:16-17 [/B]

I never said Jesus could not read; only that he could not write. Writing was something that was only taught to scribes.

Originally posted by peejayd
* 🤨 what a bunch of whiners... 😆

* who cares? that's not the point...

* no, it is illogical to conclude that a person who has no writings cannot write...

"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to [b]read.
And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,"
Luke 4:16-17

* there you go, He knows how to read, He is not illiterate...

* wrong, go to the dictionary, wines may be fermented and unfermented, not all wines are alcoholic...

"And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast kept the good wine until now."
John 2:10

* the wine Jesus created was not alcoholic, true, it may crack you up but it's true... people who tasted it proved it's a good wine, they will not be drunk with the good wine Jesus created...

* you overlooked the argument i said about Abraham's... proves you don't listen as well...

* or did He? pawned again?

* according to the Bible, Jesus and God are not one being... but They are one, as in united...

* wines can be used as remedies, even in culinary arts, used as flavorings... "to be drunk" is a lot different than "using wine"...

* "use wine", if you get drunk, the wine "used" you... smoking is another thing, it damages your health, there's nothing beneficial in smoking... 😉

* you guys should know that wines may be fermented or unfermented juice...

* hope this clears it up... [/B]

Also you have to take a look at the technology and knowledge back then; people didn’t understand or even know about alcohol. They could no less tell the difference between one that is full of alcohol and one that is not from “sweet” to “old” wine. In all most all reference to “yayin” (wine) is refereed to the fermented wine, they had no knowledge of the boiling temperature between grape juice and alcohol. They could make “adynamon” or (weak wine) but it is not refereed to that, they had many different version of “wine” and names for all of them but none were uses to say Jesus created weak wine.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Also you have to take a look at the technology and knowledge back then; people didn’t understand or even know about alcohol. They could no less tell the difference between one that is full of alcohol and one that is not from “sweet” to “old” wine. In all most all reference to “yayin” (wine) is refereed to the fermented wine, they had no knowledge of the boiling temperature between grape juice and alcohol. They could make “adynamon” or (weak wine) but it is not refereed to that, they had many different version of “wine” and names for all of them but none were uses to say Jesus created weak wine.

Also, grape juice that was not refrigerated would spoil.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Also, grape juice that was not refrigerated would spoil.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
They did use a technique to boil out the water in the grapes leaving just the sugar and the pulp that could be stored with salt or salt water for a longer a period of time.

Could you call that wine?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Could you call that wine?

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Nothing beneficial about weed? Are you serious? Glaucoma for one and nausea after chemo.

* i never said about anything specific... i said, there's nothing beneficial in smoking... generally speaking...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If you don’t want a question answered, then don’t ask the question.

* sure, my bad... it's just that, that wasn't my point...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is correct under today’s standard, but that is incorrect under the standard of education at the time of Jesus.

* nope... you are not the one who sets the standards in their time...

"Now when they beheld the boldness of Peter and John, and had perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus."
Luke 4:13

* Peter and John both know how to read and write (of course, they have epistles), but they are still viewed as unlearned and ignorant (in some versions, uneducated and untrained)...

* the point is, is there a standard? or is it only other people's perception? think about it... and because there is no writing, do we have to immediately conclude that someone does not know how to write? really... that is very preposterous...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I never said Jesus could not read; only that he could not write. Writing was something that was only taught to scribes.

* really? "only" to the scribes? how about the pharisees? do you want to retract that statement?

Originally posted by Da Pittman
This is where I said there is translation errors, in the day of Jesus wine not only meant fermented grapes but also grape juice (boiled or strained) where as the modern translation of wine means with alcohol.

* nope...

"And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now."
John 2:10

* it is wine, but a good wine... in Greek, oinos is wine... and what kind of wine? in Greek, the word "good" is kalos which means:

1) beautiful, handsome, excellent, eminent, choice, surpassing, precious, useful, suitable, commendable, admirable
a) beautiful to look at, shapely, magnificent
b) good, excellent in its nature and characteristics, and therefore well adapted to its ends
1) genuine, approved
2) precious
3) joined to names of men designated by their office, competent, able, such as one ought to be
4) praiseworthy, noble
c) beautiful by reason of purity of heart and life, and hence praiseworthy
1) morally good, noble
d) honourable, conferring honour
e) affecting the mind agreeably, comforting and confirming

* now, do you really think the wine Jesus created is still alcoholic?

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Also you have to take a look at the technology and knowledge back then; people didn’t understand or even know about alcohol. They could no less tell the difference between one that is full of alcohol and one that is not from “sweet” to “old” wine. In all most all reference to “yayin” (wine) is refereed to the fermented wine, they had no knowledge of the boiling temperature between grape juice and alcohol. They could make “adynamon” or (weak wine) but it is not refereed to that, they had many different version of “wine” and names for all of them but none were uses to say Jesus created weak wine.

* they can tell... they have wines back then... according to the verse (John 2:10), Jesus made a "good" wine... the transliteration above clearly proves it was not alcoholic...

Originally posted by Da Pittman
That is one of the debates, by our modern term no but some scholars say that they did call this wine as well. Though they had a term for this drink but for the life of me I can't remember it but in all most all references to wine it wouldn't be.

* if that is so, there's no point of argument... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
…* nope... you are not the one who sets the standards in their time...

"Now when they beheld the boldness of Peter and John, and had perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus."
Luke 4:13

We are not talking about Peter or John; we are talking about Jesus. Peter and John both wrote books, but where are the books that Jesus wrote?

Originally posted by peejayd
* Peter and John both know how to read and write (of course, they have epistles), but they are still viewed as unlearned and ignorant (in some versions, uneducated and untrained)...

I have seen people who I thought were idiots just to find that they were well educated.

Originally posted by peejayd
* the point is, is there a standard? or is it only other people's perception? think about it... and because there is no writing, do we have to immediately conclude that someone does not know how to write? really... that is very preposterous...

I am basing my information on several programs that just recently aired on the History Channel. Writing was not common among the learned in the time of Jesus. People did write, back in those days, but they did not sit down with a piece of paper and a pen. Paper, was very expensive, and the art of writing was reserved for important reasons. Therefore, ether Jesus did not write or what he had to say was not important.

Originally posted by peejayd
* really? "only" to the scribes? how about the pharisees? do you want to retract that statement?...

Are you saying that Jesus was a Pharisee?

Originally posted by peejayd
* nope...

"And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now."
John 2:10

* it is wine, but a good wine... in Greek, oinos is wine... and what kind of wine? in Greek, the word "good" is kalos which means:

1) beautiful, handsome, excellent, eminent, choice, surpassing, precious, useful, suitable, commendable, admirable
a) beautiful to look at, shapely, magnificent
b) good, excellent in its nature and characteristics, and therefore well adapted to its ends
1) genuine, approved
2) precious
3) joined to names of men designated by their office, competent, able, such as one ought to be
4) praiseworthy, noble
c) beautiful by reason of purity of heart and life, and hence praiseworthy
1) morally good, noble
d) honourable, conferring honour
e) affecting the mind agreeably, comforting and confirming

* now, do you really think the wine Jesus created is still alcoholic?

* they can tell... they have wines back then... according to the verse (John 2:10), Jesus made a "good" wine... the transliteration above clearly proves it was not alcoholic...

if that is so, there's no point of argument... 😉

The problem is that they had words for “wine” that didn’t contain the mind effecting substance and they didn’t referrer to any of them. As for Jesus creating wine that I do not believe but if you go with the mystical aspect of the idea then yes he could, he could have also made it a bennie-baby as well but we are talking about the wine of the time and not some magical potion.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Well first off you have a problem between the two different languages where the same words have different meanings. In your definitions of “good” it says nothing about wine being “pure” or “holy”. They didn’t have any type of technology or understanding of what alcohol is, they could by taste tell if the wine was “old” or “new” but not if there was any alcohol unless the grapes were fermented for a long period of time to increases the alcohol content and they could feel the immediate effects of it.

The problem is that they had words for “wine” that didn’t contain the mind effecting substance and they didn’t referrer to any of them. As for Jesus creating wine that I do not believe but if you go with the mystical aspect of the idea then yes he could, he could have also made it a bennie-baby as well but we are talking about the wine of the time and not some magical potion.

FYI

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/alcohol.html

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
FYI

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/interp/alcohol.html

Proverbs 31:6-9
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Nice link, I like this one 😄

Proverbs 31:6-9
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

Ya, I always forget my poverty and misery when I drink grape juice. 😆

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Ya, I always forget my poverty and misery when I drink grape juice. 😆

Originally posted by Da Pittman
After I mix it with Vodka 😛

Night Train! drunk

Originally posted by Robtard
If the only way into heaven is accepting Jesus as your own personal savior, how do "good" people who never had the chance to, gain entry; is there a back-door to heaven?

What if you're someone born on an Island (or other), where Christianity never reached, but you happen to be a decent person. You don't covet your tribesmen's wives, you respect your parents, you never murdered or have stolen anything; you and your tribe happen to live in complete peace.

What's this person to do in Jesus-God's infinate kindness and wisdom?

God is perfect, if the person is truly unaware, and they did live a perfect life they will be judged for all of the good that they did, vs all of the bad that they've done. Keep this in mind though it isn't nearly as simple as this, because according to the bible it is Lucifer who will add a measure to your sins if you are not baptised in the name of Jesus.

Here's a few questions for you.... How many times does a person have to lie in order to be called a liar? How many people does a person need to kill to be considered a murderer? How many things does a person need to steal to be considered a thief? I always came up with once as an answer. Here's another question.... How many sins do you think that it would take to go to hell?

The Bible says to beware, and not to die in your sin. There will be two judgments; the judgment of all of those who were baptised in the name of Jesus, and the judgment of all of those who did not get baptised in Jesus' name (The White Hall Judgment). Like I said earlier those who are not a Child of Christ will be judged for all of the good that they had done vs all of the bad... we all know that there isn't one perfect person, and all have fallen short of the grace of God (meaning we have all sinned).

This is where it gets interesting, according to the bible Lucifer (Satan the Devil) sinned only 5 times, and can never find forgiveness for his sins... God also blessed Lucifer above everyother creation that he made, so here's the question, if God won't forgive a Celestial being made far greater than man, how will we survive the coming judgment when it will be Satan himself that presses God on the wrongs that man has committed? People keep missing the big picture, yes it is God who decides who makes it, but it is Lucifer who will prosecutes. God is lawful straight down the line, and so this is why Jesus said for his children to be blameless.

This is why it does not matter if you did not know about Jesus who basically forgives all of our sins. Anyone attempting to get to the father without Jesus will not make it. The question here is even when people know this, why do they continue not to be baptised?

Originally posted by CaptainStoic
God is perfect, ...

Please show proof.