The John 3:16 & 4:16 flaw?

Originally posted by peejayd
[B...* way out of line there... however, your post still tends to go on my favor... you can never have faith without basis... because faith without basis is either stupidity or zealousness or blindness... and if you find Jesus' words in the Bible acceptable as basis of faith, then that's good, because we're on the same page...[/B]

I am not out of line at all. Paul bastardised the teachings of Jesus. Jesus was a man who taught Buddhism, in my opinion. Sure, it was a Jewish version of Buddhism, and it was not the three vehicle type, but the Lotus Sutra did away with three vehicles and replaced them with the one.

* that's only your opinion... but in my opinion, and also according to the Bible, Saint Paul is one of the greatest - if not the greatest - apostles of Christ... he filled up in his flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of the Church... he worked harder than any of the other apostles... but i can't blame you for saying that because even Saint Peter himself admitted this in his epistle:

"And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
As he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."
II Peter 3:15-17

* i can see no contradictions between the teachings of Jesus and Paul... in fact, the gospel Saint Paul was preaching came from Jesus... and there are many wisdom and knowledge given by Jesus only to Paul specifically... you can expound on this matter if you want to, and i'll be glad to reconcile Jesus' and Paul's teachings for you... 🙂

Originally posted by peejayd
* that's only your opinion... but in my opinion, and also according to the Bible, Saint Paul is one of the greatest - if not the greatest - apostles of Christ... he filled up in his flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of the Church... he worked harder than any of the other apostles... but i can't blame you for saying that because even Saint Peter himself admitted this in his epistle:

"And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
As he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."
II Peter 3:15-17

* i can see no contradictions between the teachings of Jesus and Paul... in fact, the gospel Saint Paul was preaching came from Jesus... and there are many wisdom and knowledge given by Jesus only to Paul specifically... you can expound on this matter if you want to, and i'll be glad to reconcile Jesus' and Paul's teachings for you... 🙂

No need. I'm read the bible and I know the teachings.

Paul never knew Jesus.

A lot of people never knew Jesus while he was living here on Earth. That doesn't mean they bastardize Jesus' teachings.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
A lot of people never knew Jesus while he was living here on Earth. That doesn't mean they bastardize Jesus' teachings.

That is not what I was basing my opinion on. This is not the right thread to debate this, but if you take the words of Jesus while he was alive and compare them with the words of Paul, you will see that Paul is more Mithraistic.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No need. I'm read the bible and I know the teachings.

* maybe you did not read the Bible as a whole... because by reading it, you will find that there are no contradictions between Jesus' and Paul's teachings... Jesus preached both to members and non-members of the Church, while Saint Paul's epistles are focused to the members...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Paul never knew Jesus.

* if that is an immediate conclusion, that is not only your opinion, but that is already your belief towards Paul... but i believe in the Bible, and Saint Peter gave good recommendation to the epistles of Saint Paul, so Paul really knew Jesus, more than you'll ever know...

Originally posted by willofthewisp
A lot of people never knew Jesus while he was living here on Earth. That doesn't mean they bastardize Jesus' teachings.

* that also does not mean that Saint Paul never knew Jesus...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is not what I was basing my opinion on. This is not the right thread to debate this, but if you take the words of Jesus while he was alive and compare them with the words of Paul, you will see that Paul is more Mithraistic.

* and Jesus is Mithraistic too? nope... take the words of Jesus and tell me how was it compared to Paul's... their teachings are in jive with each other...

Originally posted by peejayd
* maybe you did not read the Bible as a whole... because by reading it, you will find that there are no contradictions between Jesus' and Paul's teachings... Jesus preached both to members and non-members of the Church, while Saint Paul's epistles are focused to the members...

So, anyone who has read the bible, but does not agree with you hasn’t read the bible? Are you the pope or something?

Originally posted by peejayd
* if that is an immediate conclusion, that is not only your opinion, but that is already your belief towards Paul... but i believe in the Bible, and Saint Peter gave good recommendation to the epistles of Saint Paul, so Paul really knew Jesus, more than you'll ever know...

The first part did not make any sense. Also, Jesus died before Paul started his teachings.

Originally posted by peejayd
* and Jesus is Mithraistic too? nope... take the words of Jesus and tell me how was it compared to Paul's... their teachings are in jive with each other...

This is not the correct thread for the discussion.

The real question is...

Did Paul really know Jesus??? pitt_shifty

Originally posted by Da Pittman
The real question is...

Did Paul really know Jesus??? pitt_shifty

In the biblical sense? 😆

Lets just follow Pan......He will lead us... 😉

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So, anyone who has read the bible, but does not agree with you hasn’t read the bible? Are you the pope or something?

* nope... i'm just saying that if someone read the Bible, and believed in it, he will not have the same opinion as yours... albeit, are you implying that anyone who read the Bible should agree on your opinions? are you a dictator? right back at you... problem is, you keep throwing holes... 😉

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The first part did not make any sense. Also, Jesus died before Paul started his teachings.

* it makes sense, you're not citing an opinion but a belief... true, Jesus died before Paul converted to the Church... but Jesus appeared before Paul... and Peter knows about it, because if not, he should have contested that statement of Paul... but nope, Peter gave good recommendations for Paul's epistles...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
This is not the correct thread for the discussion.

* then, create one...

Originally posted by Da Pittman
The real question is...

Did Paul really know Jesus??? pitt_shifty

* yes... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* nope... i'm just saying that if someone read the Bible, and believed in it, he will not have the same opinion as yours... albeit, are you implying that anyone who read the Bible should agree on your opinions? are you a dictator? right back at you... problem is, you keep throwing holes... 😉

I studied the bible years ago. I was going to be a preacher, but the more I read, the more I realized that the bible was not saying what the people around me were telling me it was saying. I grew into the opinion I now have. I once believed close to what you believe. I was Baptist, so, we would have had a few disagreements back then, but not as much as we have now. There are other people on this forum that have taken the same path that I did. We are not ignorant of the bible or how you believe.

I’m throwing holes? More like I’m finding holes.

Originally posted by peejayd
* it makes sense, you're not citing an opinion but a belief...

What I mean is, I couldn’t understand what you were writing, because of the way the sentence was put together, not that I couldn’t understand your point. I never got to your point.

Originally posted by peejayd
true, Jesus died before Paul converted to the Church... but Jesus appeared before Paul... and Peter knows about it,

Hallucinations do not count as personal experiences with another person. As a matter of fact, Paul would be in a hospital if he lived today.

Originally posted by peejayd
because if not, he should have contested that statement of Paul... but nope, Peter gave good recommendations for Paul's epistles...

Politics, politics, politics…

Originally posted by peejayd
* then, create one...

Not my subject: I usually make threads about Buddhism.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I studied the bible years ago. I was going to be a preacher, but the more I read, the more I realized that the bible was not saying what the people around me were telling me it was saying. I grew into the opinion I now have. I once believed close to what you believe. I was Baptist, so, we would have had a few disagreements back then, but not as much as we have now. There are other people on this forum that have taken the same path that I did. We are not ignorant of the bible or how you believe.

* then you should know firsthand most of the huge differences between the Bible and the doctrines of religious denominations today... it's not the Bible's fault but the false preachers' and prophets'...

* another thing... not all experiences like yours is supposed to be "standard"... other people took opposite paths, from Buddhism to Christianity... so your experience does not mean it's right and absolute...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Hallucinations do not count as personal experiences with another person. As a matter of fact, Paul would be in a hospital if he lived today.

* in the Bible, it's not a hallucination... angels appeared to Abraham and other prophets, those are not hallucinations... angels appeared to Saint Peter and the other apostles... Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and 3 apostles... it's not a hallucination that Jesus appeared to His disciples and lastly, to Saint Paul...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Politics, politics, politics…

* it's not politics... Saint Peter recognized the great abundance of wisdom and revelations given by God to Saint Paul... eventhough Peter was an elder member of the Church, he gave way for Paul, giving him the right hand of fellowship of the Church to Paul, and the recommendation of all his epistles...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Not my subject: I usually make threads about Buddhism.

* okay...

Originally posted by peejayd
* nope... i'm just saying that if someone read the Bible, and believed in it, he will not have the same opinion as yours... albeit, are you implying that anyone who read the Bible should agree on your opinions? are you a dictator? right back at you... problem is, you keep throwing holes... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* then you should know firsthand most of the huge differences between the Bible and the doctrines of religious denominations today... it's not the Bible's fault but the false preachers' and prophets'...

How do you know that you are not under the influence of false preachers' and prophets'?

Originally posted by peejayd
* another thing... not all experiences like yours is supposed to be "standard"... other people took opposite paths, from Buddhism to Christianity... so your experience does not mean it's right and absolute...

I agree, I am smarter then a lot of people. 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* in the Bible, it's not a hallucination... angels appeared to Abraham and other prophets, those are not hallucinations... angels appeared to Saint Peter and the other apostles... Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and 3 apostles... it's not a hallucination that Jesus appeared to His disciples and lastly, to Saint Paul...

Angels, demons and ghosts do not exist. People, who die, do not return from death. There is a possibility that Jesus did not die on the cross, so those who saw him after the crucifixion may have really seen him, but he was not dead in that case. However, I think Paul had hallucinations.

Originally posted by peejayd
* it's not politics... Saint Peter recognized the great abundance of wisdom and revelations given by God to Saint Paul... eventhough Peter was an elder member of the Church, he gave way for Paul, giving him the right hand of fellowship of the Church to Paul, and the recommendation of all his epistles...

It smells like politics.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I agree, I am smarter then a lot of people. 😉

Originally posted by Da Pittman
You talking about me 😮

Ok, ok, we are smarter then a lot of people. 😛

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Ok, ok, we are smarter then a lot of people. 😛

"Angels, demons and ghosts do not exist. People, who die, do not return from death. There is a possibility that Jesus did not die on the cross, so those who saw him after the crucifixion may have really seen him, but he was not dead in that case. However, I think Paul had hallucinations."---shaky

I don't see how this debate can really go on much longer. What you're really questioning isn't the matter of a hallucination but Jesus' divinity. You will never be convinced of it as Christians will never be convinced Jesus was just another human. No, people don't come back from the dead, but God can. Part of why that means so much to some people is that it's impossible for everyone else to come back from the dead, so it just seems like this will keep going in a circle.

Other than his vision, what evidence do you have that Paul had multiple hallucinations? We keep saying how people wouldn't know this and wouldn't know that, and I'll agree people in the ancient Middle East were vastly uneducated, but they weren't stupid. Paul wrote several letters to different groups of people who had different experiences and different levels of intelligence. You can't tell every single person believed Paul without deep questioning. People searched for evidence then just as they do now. I have as hard a time believing everyone interpreted a "hallucination" as a valid vision as you do believing everyone believed in a valid vision when it was really just a "hallucination."

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I don't see how this debate can really go on much longer. What you're really questioning isn't the matter of a hallucination but Jesus' divinity. You will never be convinced of it as Christians will never be convinced Jesus was just another human. No, people don't come back from the dead, but God can. Part of why that means so much to some people is that it's impossible for everyone else to come back from the dead, so it just seems like this will keep going in a circle.

According to the Jewish religion the Messiah would have to be human and not divine. Therefore, if Jesus was divine he was not the Messiah, but if he was human, then he might have been the Messiah. You choose.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Other than his vision, what evidence do you have that Paul had multiple hallucinations? We keep saying how people wouldn't know this and wouldn't know that, and I'll agree people in the ancient Middle East were vastly uneducated, but they weren't stupid. Paul wrote several letters to different groups of people who had different experiences and different levels of intelligence. You can't tell every single person believed Paul without deep questioning. People searched for evidence then just as they do now. I have as hard a time believing everyone interpreted a "hallucination" as a valid vision as you do believing everyone believed in a valid vision when it was really just a "hallucination."

If you take the average insane person and you say, besides his insane behavior, how can you tell he's insane? You can't without testing the person, and when the person is dead; then all you can judge by is the insane behavior. Last I heard, seeing god or Jesus was grounds for insanity.