Originally posted by RobtardFalse, I have made fantastic arguments whereas rj was a judas. This has been documented and is well known. You accused another potter fan as my sock. You didn't accuse rj because he's not the Voldemort legend that I am.
False. All you've ever done is copy RogueJedi's old 'HP vs SW' arguments because you're a tracer. This is a fact that upsets you, boy.
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Originally posted by RobtardReading comprehension fail on your end. Rj has horrible arguments he himself later turned on. I made fantastic points that still stand.
Thanks for proving that you can't handle this truth like I claimed 👆Fact: You initially said that Star Wars wins and then much later after you saw what RogueJedi was doing you started to copy his pro HP arguments like the tracer you are, boy.
No one really even brings him up. He's a flash in the pan. I'm the one, Roberta.
Dumbledore wins.
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Ok. To answer to your when sidious was shooting lightning at windu and Lucas says he was trying to kill him. Lucas also states that sidious was faking weakness.Lucas never explicitly states either side whether or not sidious threw the fight or not, so it's up for debate.
Lucas says that anakin knows that sidious is the only way to save Padme. Sidious also knows this as when he basically told anakin the words "save Padme".
Sidious tells anakin about plagues and how he could cheat death, then tells anakin you can't learn this ability from a Jedi and that plagues taught his apprentice everything he knew. Then tells sidious tells anakin that he is the apprentice meaning that he has the knowledge and power to save Padme.
Sidious is politician an Sith Lord he lies and manipulates things on a daily basis.
Sidious was able to go even with yoda while windu can't. This is proven by the fact since ok u even with his Vjun amp could not defeat yoda, and since windu couldn't get a huge if not any amp from vaapad yoda would beat him.
Lucas says that anakins fight with dooku was all a test constructed by sidious to see if anakin was willing to kill and had what it took to be his apprentice.
You took the overpowered commentary out of context. Overpowered in this instance means he was disarmed of his weapon. Then the fact that sidious was able to basically stalemate him while he was in 100% vaapad shows that sidious could match him if he wanted to.
Do you know what proof is? that isn't proof at all. In fact, it's the exact opposite of proof, it's simply more conjecture on your part. He LITERALLY states that Sids is trying to kill Mace.. he couldn't be anymore clear. You even admit he said this. The book says this. Case is closed.. he tried to kill him. Lucas commentary about him FEINGING weakness was at the end of the lighting.. EXACTLY when he states it and says he added this part later. Point is, at that point Sidious could've kept on firing his lighting a little longer.. he was totally drained of energy like he portrayed. This was done to make him look weak and feeble to Anakin. However, that was at the END of the fight and the END only. There is absolutely NO proof that if he kept going he would've won.. it's all speculating. What we do know is that sidious was TRYING to Kill mace and FAILED to do so. Period. In fact he was overpowered and disarmed. Only at the end when he realized he was doomed and he needed Anakin did he feign being totally weak with no energy left.
Originally posted by quanchi112
When did I ever do that ? Give an example and calm down.That is another fan fic but Hondo capturing three of the greatest Jedi is canon.
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You haven't won a single battlezone you've ever participated in. The one you didn't lose you backed down and had Carver just agree to call it. A match you were going to lose FYI. So, the reality is, you'll likely lose anyways or back out smush
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1c. For a shield to block/deflect something, it has to be put in between an attack and the intended target. Something that does not emanate at a straight path from the attacker, but instead, bypasses distances and hits the target directly cannot be blocked by a shield, basic logic there. Basically: you cannot block TK with a shield.And applications of the force has bypassed physical obstacles before (and seamlessly at that), like vader/palpatine force choking ppl thru walls or inside separate star destroyers. Or when Kanan and Ezra lifted locking mechanisms inside a door (without even seeing it). Or when Yoda lifted droids inside a tank along with the hatch he just cut open and tossing them hundreds of feet in the air.
The rest of this paragraph is pure unadulterated speculation.
2. T'was a joke. Still, don't be sore if called out on your mistakes.
3. Looks more like a force wave due to how slow it was (a powerful aoe pressure wave that emanates from the force user) than a force push. Again, can't block TK. Can't apperate if you're stunned/KO'd.
4. Ignoring how the "feat" system work now? Best to learn it than ignore it if I were you. Cannot block TK with protego, sorry.
5. Yoda can't use the force seamlessly in combat and needs to buckle down and concentrate now? facepalm
Yoda literally toying with a droid force complete with tanks using the force seamlessly....
Your entire tirade doesn't make sense and has already been disproven by my last reply (20 years is nothing to Yoda and has no bearings with his empire strikes back performance vs his performance in the clone wars).
You need to learn to differentiate between proof and speculation. Get a dictionary or use google or something,
6. There is no spell that increases the physical stats and durability of the wizard. Protego can shield them but, once hit, there is no spell that that allows them to resist the damage with their bodies. Dumby is an old man with old man durability whose best durability "feat" is falling on his butt and being able to eventually stand up like an old man. Stop trying to manufacture durability that does not exist. If something can KO otherwise healthy young combat trained ppl in their prime while in armor, it can KO an old man in a robe.
7. Lifting a chair and lifting a person are different, yes. Different weights. But lifting a chair with a person (or equivalent) on it is harder than lifitng either. It is irrelevant that Skywalker wasn't completely frozen (btw, the Immobulus spell does not completely freeze you), or all intents and purposes it proves he didn't need to move as he didn't move (other than closing his eyes) when using the force. There is loterally no functional difference as he only needed to concentrate to use his abilities and Immobulus does not prevent you from concentrating.
Sooo, you're extending "feats" such as moments where other characters used different spells needing minimum gestures and then adding "Dumbledore has cast spells without words before" to justify him using no words and gestures but then refuse to extend "feats" towards force users like a basic force push without gestures when a noob like Skywalker (student of Yoda) has done an entire lift and carry without gestures? Double standards much? At this point, I don't see any point arguing with you as it seems you bend fair logical discourse rules to suit your needs.
7a. You deny a well known truth about jedi precog abilities that is even made mention/explained in the movies and elaborated on in the series? Well, that's a concession. Win for me, I guess.
"Battle applicable" lolwut? I already said that everytime they block/delfect blaster bolts, it is precog.
7b. BS. I don't have to fulfill any of your requirements as your grasp of logic and evidence is extremely rudimentary and biased. I have proven that it can be done thru walls, that it can be done without seeing your target and can be done with no gestures. It is corroborated by how masters explain the use of the force to their apprentices (the basic principle of simply to "concentrate" and no mention of either instruments nor words nor gestures) and by characters peforming them with no instruments or gestures or words and thru walls. That is all the proof I need and you denying and manufacturing your own constantly evolving, double standards proof requirements is irrelevant.
And Darth Sids used BOTH force lift and force choke on the Mandalorians. A simple force choke doesn't lift you off your feet (as demonstrated by Vader multiple times). So he performed a lift thru a large door without seeing his target.
In his entire fight with Voldy, every offensive spell he cast took both time and gestures to perform at the very least. While I can accept that he can cast Immobulus w/o words, you need to show that he or anyone below him for that matter can perform it (anything combative will do) with neither time nor gestures.
The rest below, you mever succesfully countered, so I will simply repost:
(2) We've already agreed (for fairness' sake) that Dumby can Immobulus as far as Yoda can force push. So it comes down to who can act first the second they are within range. As he cannot cast his spell while Yoda is out of range. I cannot get what is so hard to understand about that concept.
(3) And even in the tiny (less than 1%) chance that Dumby can hit him with an Immobulus first, Yoda STILL has a window to retaliate with a force push as Dumby would need to cast another spell to finish him off.
1. Your "logic" is one of two things possibly both. Flawed or just confusing. I'm not understanding what you mean by the force doesn't go straight. It's like a wall that goes for an opponents in a since. The force doesn't go from the hand to the wall to the ground to the desk behind someone then to the target. It goes straight to the target. I would bet you that if you get a full suited night with a sheild and put him against yodas force push I wouldn't be surprised if the push was cutioned. As all anakin and I I wan had to do were put their arms up to block it. Also both have weak force shields and this is proven by how each has been penetrated by lower level force users.
The protego charm is much more powerful than any physical object as it can deflect any spell and even a weaker version can vaporize humans. Wasn't hermione able to get up a sheild that kept out snatchers wasn't she able to get like a wall of it up in a matter of seconds? Just asking. I mean the point of sheild is to block an object. The force is no different hence the ability FORCE WALL/FORCE SHEILD. So how can protego not block the force?
3. Your powers of perception are frightening. Force wave is more powerful than force push and actually is pretty fast as seen by mace windu in the clone wars movie the one look like it was a cartoon strip made by 3rd graders. Anyways this further proves that even the force is seceptable to distance as seen by the battle between malgus and satelle Shan ( don't know if it's cannon or not though assuming it is) this shows that the force needs gestures as well. Also this proves that the force needs to cover the distance necessary to hit the opponent meaning that dumbledore could apparate out of the way.
5. That one clip of yoda only using force pull wow. As for his force powers he actually does need to concentrate if not he has problems as seen in his battle with dooku as when blocks fell upon him he showed struggle. Tell me that is not fact. Or when dooku levitated a little object toward him yoda seemed as if he was smuggling dropping his cane and that facial expression. Or when the yoda had to catch the pillar that was about to fall on obi and ani. Yes he caught it but the strain at which he did I it.
You actually may need to find something with proof to back yourself up. Saying protego won't work is speculation. Saying that the force push was a force wave was speculation. Do you need to look up the difference.
6. Never said there was. However wizards have their own durability and endurance.
7. Understand your point however in the world of Star Wars any thing out of place can cause for the smallest disruption.
7a. Like I said it all depends on what you mean by gestures. Do you mean the spell movements needed to do the spell or the need to move their hands? Voldemrot was able to just hold his hand out and say Avada kedavra and kill a death eater. So does this prove that if the wand is already up that the spell caster can use spells without the need of gestures. Also time wise it's plausible as dumbledore doesn't need to say words and all his gestures were either a gigantic spell ( firestorm ) or he needed to move someone out of the way ( expelliarmus in order of the Phoenix ) also Harry a 3rd year displayed an ability to use wand magic without gestures when he shoot snape with the expelliarmus spell with no real gestures.
Not replying to the other two as one has sidious doing force choke when we all know sidious is way more powerful in the force than yoda and that was force choke. And the other Ill do something special for it possibly.
I'll get to the other three later.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Do you know what proof is? that isn't proof at all. In fact, it's the exact opposite of proof, it's simply more conjecture on your part. He LITERALLY states that Sids is trying to kill Mace.. he couldn't be anymore clear. You even admit he said this. The book says this. Case is closed.. he tried to kill him. Lucas commentary about him FEINGING weakness was at the end of the lighting.. EXACTLY when he states it and says he added this part later. Point is, at that point Sidious could've kept on firing his lighting a little longer.. he was totally drained of energy like he portrayed. This was done to make him look weak and feeble to Anakin. However, that was at the END of the fight and the END only. There is absolutely NO proof that if he kept going he would've won.. it's all speculating. What we do know is that sidious was TRYING to Kill mace and FAILED to do so. Period. In fact he was overpowered and disarmed. Only at the end when he realized he was doomed and he needed Anakin did he feign being totally weak with no energy left.
You have some serious issues to work out. All of that is proof that proves that the fight was to convert anakin you just dislike sidious so much. Whether he added it in later it's in the commentary as proof of the battle. It doesn't matter when you add anything as lon as its in there. Ask yourself this do you know what proof is apparently not. With all that fact case closed sidious threw the fight. He knows about padme and anakin said turmoil, he already tested anakin with the fight against dooku, sidious being overpowered was just him being disarmed, also the book says that palpatine was bending his lightsaber which means like you said he could have but why he didn't, then Lucas says he faked weakness you idiot. All of these things coincide with sidious winning. Look at this.
Yoda is greater than dooku who is stated to be on windus lvl of not a slight superior or the other way around but either way it's hard to tell. Yoda is also stated to be able to best windu. Vaapad wouldn't come into play as yoda has no true inner darkness for windu to draw on. Sidious matched yoda to a tee in lightsaber combat. So with all that the book itself even says that with windu being in 100% vaapad it would only be a stalemate. Also if sidious didn't fake weakness how come he shouted out power unlimited power and was basically killing windu if he was according to you tired. Then when he was done how was he able to just get right up and talk to anakin in his normal fashion? You have no idea how to accept others proof. Reevaluate yourself and come back to me when you have something worthy to say.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiYoda did nota beat two old guys with a push whereas khan's cells can withstand and recuperate superhuman my fast. Quit saying dumb things. You are the worst debater. Well ok Robbie is then you are runner up worst.
Welcome back Smush the midget Parker. Glad to see you still can't get a winner correct in these forums. Yoda crushes him, with the utmost ease
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiFalse. Quit lying. No, that is false. Did your gf leave you yet ?
You haven't won a single battlezone you've ever participated in. The one you didn't lose you backed down and had Carver just agree to call it. A match you were going to lose FYI. So, the reality is, you'll likely lose anyways or back out smush
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Do you know what proof is? that isn't proof at all. In fact, it's the exact opposite of proof, it's simply more conjecture on your part. He LITERALLY states that Sids is trying to kill Mace.. he couldn't be anymore clear. You even admit he said this. The book says this. Case is closed.. he tried to kill him. Lucas commentary about him FEINGING weakness was at the end of the lighting.. EXACTLY when he states it and says he added this part later. Point is, at that point Sidious could've kept on firing his lighting a little longer.. he was totally drained of energy like he portrayed. This was done to make him look weak and feeble to Anakin. However, that was at the END of the fight and the END only. There is absolutely NO proof that if he kept going he would've won.. it's all speculating. What we do know is that sidious was TRYING to Kill mace and FAILED to do so. Period. In fact he was overpowered and disarmed. Only at the end when he realized he was doomed and he needed Anakin did he feign being totally weak with no energy left.
So what George Lucas says is incomplete thought?
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
1. Your "logic" is one of two things possibly both. Flawed or just confusing. I'm not understanding what you mean by the force doesn't go straight. It's like a wall that goes for an opponents in a since. The force doesn't go from the hand to the wall to the ground to the desk behind someone then to the target. It goes straight to the target. I would bet you that if you get a full suited night with a sheild and put him against yodas force push I wouldn't be surprised if the push was cutioned. As all anakin and I I wan had to do were put their arms up to block it. Also both have weak force shields and this is proven by how each has been penetrated by lower level force users.The protego charm is much more powerful than any physical object as it can deflect any spell and even a weaker version can vaporize humans. Wasn't hermione able to get up a sheild that kept out snatchers wasn't she able to get like a wall of it up in a matter of seconds? Just asking. I mean the point of sheild is to block an object. The force is no different hence the ability FORCE WALL/FORCE SHEILD. So how can protego not block the force?
3. Your powers of perception are frightening. Force wave is more powerful than force push and actually is pretty fast as seen by mace windu in the clone wars movie the one look like it was a cartoon strip made by 3rd graders. Anyways this further proves that even the force is seceptable to distance as seen by the battle between malgus and satelle Shan ( don't know if it's cannon or not though assuming it is) this shows that the force needs gestures as well. Also this proves that the force needs to cover the distance necessary to hit the opponent meaning that dumbledore could apparate out of the way.
5. That one clip of yoda only using force pull wow. As for his force powers he actually does need to concentrate if not he has problems as seen in his battle with dooku as when blocks fell upon him he showed struggle. Tell me that is not fact. Or when dooku levitated a little object toward him yoda seemed as if he was smuggling dropping his cane and that facial expression. Or when the yoda had to catch the pillar that was about to fall on obi and ani. Yes he caught it but the strain at which he did I it.
You actually may need to find something with proof to back yourself up. Saying protego won't work is speculation. Saying that the force push was a force wave was speculation. Do you need to look up the difference.
6. Never said there was. However wizards have their own durability and endurance.
7. Understand your point however in the world of Star Wars any thing out of place can cause for the smallest disruption.
7a. Like I said it all depends on what you mean by gestures. Do you mean the spell movements needed to do the spell or the need to move their hands? Voldemrot was able to just hold his hand out and say Avada kedavra and kill a death eater. So does this prove that if the wand is already up that the spell caster can use spells without the need of gestures. Also time wise it's plausible as dumbledore doesn't need to say words and all his gestures were either a gigantic spell ( firestorm ) or he needed to move someone out of the way ( expelliarmus in order of the Phoenix ) also Harry a 3rd year displayed an ability to use wand magic without gestures when he shoot snape with the expelliarmus spell with no real gestures.
Not replying to the other two as one has sidious doing force choke when we all know sidious is way more powerful in the force than yoda and that was force choke. And the other Ill do something special for it possibly.
I'll get to the other three later.
1. Sigh. You want visual aids for me to explain my point? Here:
Most attacks emanate from attacker to target in a singular path, this is called line of sight(LOS):
[attacker] -----------------------> [target] [wall]
A shield deflects an attack by coming between an attacker and his target (thus blocking LOS):
[attacker] ---------X(shield) [target] [wall]
TK does not cross the distance between attacker and target and hits instantaneously and thus cannot be blocked by a shield. Proven when Jedis use force abilities even while not having clear LOS of their target (as shown by the examples I provided) as well as the fact that if TK emanated via LOS, things like force pull, or lifting objects, etc. (essentially, the vast majority of force TK abilities wouldn't make sense).
[attacker] <TK>[target]----->[wall] (force push)
[attacker] <------[target]<TK> [wall] (force pull)
And I don't even think force shield/barrier/armor is a canon ability. I don't even think "force wall" exists. Did you make that up?
3. Relative to a force push, which hits instantaneously, force wave is "slow" as it still emanates at an observable pace. It is FAST if we are going simply by its speed. And from how it was seen creeping towards Dooku, how it hits at an aoe and seems to be more powerful than any of Obi Wan's/Anakin's regular force pushes, this def is a force wave.
Lol. I play Swtor. Have 3 characters at max level. And not only is the game non-canon, a whole bunch of abilities don't work even close to the same way as the movie/canon animation versions do. Like force abilities being visible and creating shockwaves. And even in the game, force push (a jedi guardian ability) hits instantly. Might as well use Starkiller "feats", tho.
5. He was using force abilities seamlessly in combat. In the same episode, he also used force push while hiding behind a rock and behind some clone troopers with no clear LOS. You using instances where he was fighting other force users (which is not the case here) who were using their own abilities against him (or when he's lifting a massive weight) is irrelevant as Dumby isn't a force user. (and does not weigh heavy enough for Yoda to struggle against). In the instances where he fought non-force users (like the video I posted) he needed no effort to use the force and used it seamlessly.
Every instance of force push in the movie and animation hit instantenously. This is fact. TK abilities do not need to move via LOS as the force they are exerting is not always relative to the caster (the force can come from any direction). This is fact. There is more evidence (of the Dooku incident) pointing to this being a special case TK attack (like Force Wave) than it is a standard force push. Yes, it is inconclusive on what SPECIFIC attack it was, but it didn't behave like any standard force push performed out there (emanated via LOS, slow moving relative to other force push) and had qualities similar to what a force wave is. In the end, My proof > yours.
Protego blocking TK is pure speculation. As force powers behave differently than physical objects or spells. Yoda being weaker in Empires due to 20 meaningless years (to his race) is pure speculation. Dumbledore having comparable durability to clone troopers is stupid (and is also pure speculation). You stating that Dumby has better durability than heavily plated battle droids is pure speculation. You stating that Dumby can just apperate after getting nailed by a KOing force push is pure speculation. Your entire (wall o' force) description of how the force works is pure speculation (and downright wrong as there are specific instances where force abilities' behavior cannot fit within your description). Yes, you need to differentiate what proof is vs speculation although this could be due to you having a higher standard/requirement of proof for others than what you require of yourself. This is called double standards debating.
6. Yeah, the durability of a human (or humanoid) of their specific size/build.
7. I disagree, if anything, the force is (and needs to be) very resilient in its nature, effect and application of use. As it is a combat ability needs to have multiple methods/techniques for use in various different situations against various difficult/stressful/dangerous situations placed upon the caster. The only requirement constant has only been the need to concentrate. If anything, it is magic that is more prone to disruption as magic often requires you to fulfill specific requirements and conditions in order to perform it.
7a. You can argue that a spell would not need gestures, you can argue that a spell would not need words. Those are acceptable. Hell, I might even accept spells that require neither (given you extend me the same courtesy) if the caster is skilled and advanced enough (like Dumby). But a spell having neither words nor gestures nor time/concentration? You need to show that it's even possible to do that with any combative spell. As of now, you are speculating.
Look at it again. It was BOTH a force choke and a force lift. Force choke doesn't lift you dozens of feet in the air. It's standard application is simply to choke the person (like when Vader uses it). Sidious is not way more powerful than Yoda. Yoda was even able to force absorb a full-on lightning attack from him without a lightsaber. And their battle looked very competitive. I can accept maybe more powerful by a bit but within comparable ranges.
[QUOTE=15182368]Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. Sigh. You want visual aids for me to explain my point? Here:
Most attacks emanate from attacker to target in a singular path, this is called line of sight(LOS):
[attacker] -----------------------> [target] [wall]
A shield deflects an attack by coming between an attacker and his target (thus blocking LOS):
[attacker] ---------X(shield) [target] [wall]
TK does not cross the distance between attacker and target and hits instantaneously and thus cannot be blocked by a shield. Proven when Jedis use force abilities even while not having clear LOS of their target (as shown by the examples I provided) as well as the fact that if TK emanated via LOS, things like force pull, or lifting objects, etc. (essentially, the vast majority of force TK abilities wouldn't make sense).
[attacker] <TK>[target]----->[wall] (force push)
[attacker] <------[target]<TK> [wall] (force pull)
And I don't even think force shield/barrier/armor is a canon ability. I don't even think "force wall" exists. Did you make that up?
3. Relative to a force push, which hits instantaneously, force wave is "slow" as it still emanates at an observable pace. It is FAST if we are going simply by its speed. And from how it was seen creeping towards Dooku, how it hits at an aoe and seems to be more powerful than any of Obi Wan's/Anakin's regular force pushes, this def is a force wave.
Lol. I play Swtor. Have 3 characters at max level. And not only is the game non-canon, a whole bunch of abilities don't work even close to the same way as the movie/canon animation versions do. Like force abilities being visible and creating shockwaves. And even in the game, force push (a jedi guardian ability) hits instantly. Might as well use Starkiller "feats", tho.
5. He was using force abilities seamlessly in combat. In the same episode, he also used force push while hiding behind a rock and behind some clone troopers with no clear LOS. You using instances where he was fighting other force users (which is not the case here) who were using their own abilities against him (or when he's lifting a massive weight) is irrelevant as Dumby [b]isn't a force user. (and does not weigh heavy enough for Yoda to struggle against). In the instances where he fought non-force users (like the video I posted) he needed no effort to use the force and used it seamlessly.
Ok to address 7a a spell may require time but no a significant amount of time when you have reached the experience and power of Dumbledore. As of now this is reasoned judgement.
1. Thank you for that demonstration. I don't understand why you said sigh when you made that very overcomplicated. However the visual effects are correct with the exception of the tk one. The force is actually seceptable to distance. Say if yoda could use a force push from 10 meters away. It wouldn't make it to the target instantly it would take the time needed to cover 10 meters which is not instant. Not saying the force moves slow but it's seceptable to distance as seen by force lightning force wave force storm. These things do have to cover the distance as seen by when sidious shoot yoda with lightning, it took time to get there, whether it be second or two it took time, or when sidious shot windu with lightning windu was able to block it with his saber. You aren't trying to deny that protego can block it, just that it wouldn't have the chance to. Well the range he could use it as agreed is 50 ft. The reason you believe that the force hits instantaneously is because all of its feats are short ranged to my knowledge. So if this is true than that means that force push couldn't be used at far away distances. Everything from light to sound to frogs to flies even apparition is seceptable to distance even the force.
2. Force barrier does exist but the move that the Jedi use is known as Force Resistance. If you look it up you will find a description of it.
3. There probably has been I just don't remember probably in TCW with its six seasons but I don't recall that there was an instance when force push wasn't used in a short distance. Most if not all of its examples have been in close range. That is why it's always shown as instant sense they are so close and the moment you put your hand up the push comes out. However everything must answer to distance. No matter how fast you go you have to cover that distance. If yoda is going to use it at 50 ft then it has to cover that 50ft. There is no way to question that. It has to cover 50ft whether or not it's instantaneous. Even yoda it took the push a second or two most likely just a second to hit palpatine and they were at a long distance. Dooku it took him a second or two before it hit anakin. Even the force has to answer to distance.
4. Like a lightsaber being able to block spells. Yes I know that this is not a part of this battle but that is speculation. Also yours is speculation that protego can't block the force. The fact that these are two separate universes and deal with two different types of attacks it's unknown whether or not one can block the other. Do not say by logic the force can't be blocked. Well from 50ft I bet it can. All of this is speculation as there are too many factors that each uninverse brings to the table that turn a lot of things to speculation. However protego blocks energy, it even blocks solid objects so this could translate to being able to block yoda if he were to just run up to him. Oh dear so you believe that yoda sitting on his butt for twenty years not doing anything, adding on to his hundreds of years after he became grandmaster and had people like windu and dooku do the work for him while he was able to just mediate on the force and not practice in a combative use, you believe that he was just as powerful as his prime. You have proven that you don't know these things. This is fact as seen by his fights with opposing force weilders, he fails to just launch out force push after force push, his telekenisis shows his struggle to lift three at the very least medium died to small peeves of rocks. While dooku who has been training throughout the war was able to lift 10s if not hundreds of pillars at one time with one weighing way more than all three of those rocks combined. So this is fact you have been defeated on this point so just accept it.
the movies show his most accurate depiction and his most accurate depiction is him struggling. No matter what you say or show it can't block the fact that this dude struggles with the force while people thought to be below him what he struggles with they do on a constant basis.
Dumbledore would be able to apparate out of the way before he gets hit. Also the force is pushing you. Look at what happened to palpatine. He was pushed but he flew then fell. If dumbledore is flying he could definitely apparate before he hits the ground and don't say so now your back to using dumbledore trying to make him a durable person comparing him to palaptine. Any could survive that push.
I mean look at it. A 65 year old dude with no force wall could survive it. Anyone could survive that I mean really. You make his force pushes look like they are just instant kill when they aren't stop doing that. If dumbledore gets hit he could apparate out of it you have no proof that he can't since there have been beings that are non force sensitives that have survived the force push of dooku and the combined might of obi wan and anakin. He's powerful but no instant kill powerful.
Also du,bled ore was able to withstand that poison in Harry Potter half blood prince killing him from the inside. He's dealt with more pain than what a simple 50ft away force push from someone who hasn't trained his combative abilities in tears can do.
Force choke actually can lift you feet off the ground. Yes it's main purpose is to choke but it can lift if the user wants to. Anakin has done it, dooku has done it, sidious has done it, ventress may have done it.
Ok now I'm starting to understand what you explicitly mean by speculation because you use it all the time. Ok it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Dumbledore as seen in the movies needs neither words nor gestures like the force needs no words but they have too use there hands if to use in a combative way. Dumbledore as seen in the movies doesn't need words nor SPECIFIC specific being the keyword gestures to use spells u less it's a gigantic wide range spell such as firestorm, or the aqua spell. Immobulus, the only gesture shown is to launch it where the vast majority of opponents are. Considering the fact that it's only one opponent he could aim his wand in almost any vicinity in which yoda is coming and use it.
[QUOTE=15182368]Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. Sigh. You want visual aids for me to explain my point? Here:
Most attacks emanate from attacker to target in a singular path, this is called line of sight(LOS):
[attacker] -----------------------> [target] [wall]
A shield deflects an attack by coming between an attacker and his target (thus blocking LOS):
[attacker] ---------X(shield) [target] [wall]
TK does not cross the distance between attacker and target and hits instantaneously and thus cannot be blocked by a shield. Proven when Jedis use force abilities even while not having clear LOS of their target (as shown by the examples I provided) as well as the fact that if TK emanated via LOS, things like force pull, or lifting objects, etc. (essentially, the vast majority of force TK abilities wouldn't make sense).
[attacker] <TK>[target]----->[wall] (force push)
[attacker] <------[target]<TK> [wall] (force pull)
And I don't even think force shield/barrier/armor is a canon ability. I don't even think "force wall" exists. Did you make that up?
3. Relative to a force push, which hits instantaneously, force wave is "slow" as it still emanates at an observable pace. It is FAST if we are going simply by its speed. And from how it was seen creeping towards Dooku, how it hits at an aoe and seems to be more powerful than any of Obi Wan's/Anakin's regular force pushes, this def is a force wave.
Lol. I play Swtor. Have 3 characters at max level. And not only is the game non-canon, a whole bunch of abilities don't work even close to the same way as the movie/canon animation versions do. Like force abilities being visible and creating shockwaves. And even in the game, force push (a jedi guardian ability) hits instantly. Might as well use Starkiller "feats", tho.
5. He was using force abilities seamlessly in combat. In the same episode, he also used force push while hiding behind a rock and behind some clone troopers with no clear LOS. You using instances where he was fighting other force users (which is not the case here) who were using their own abilities against him (or when he's lifting a massive weight) is irrelevant as Dumby [b]isn't a force user. (and does not weigh heavy enough for Yoda to struggle against). In the instances where he fought non-force users (like the video I posted) he needed no effort to use the force and used it seamlessly.
Ok to address 7a a spell may require time but no a significant amount of time when you have reached the experience and power of Dumbledore. As of now this is reasoned judgement.
U
1. Thank you for that demonstration. I don't understand why you said sigh when you made that very overcomplicated. However the visual effects are correct with the exception of the tk one. The force is actually seceptable to distance. Say if yoda could use a force push from 10 meters away. It wouldn't make it to the target instantly it would take the time needed to cover 10 meters which is not instant. Not saying the force moves slow but it's seceptable to distance as seen by force lightning force wave force storm. These things do have to cover the distance as seen by when sidious shoot yoda with lightning, it took time to get there, whether it be second or two it took time, or when sidious shot windu with lightning windu was able to block it with his saber. You aren't trying to deny that protego can block it, just that it wouldn't have the chance to. Well the range he could use it as agreed is 50 ft. The reason you believe that the force hits instantaneously is because all of its feats are short ranged to my knowledge. So if this is true than that means that force push couldn't be used at far away distances. Everything from light to sound to frogs to flies even apparition is seceptable to distance even the force.
2. Force barrier does exist but the move that the Jedi use is known as Force Resistance. If you look it up you will find a description of it.
3. There probably has been I just don't remember probably in TCW with its six seasons but I don't recall that there was an instance when force push wasn't used in a short distance. Most if not all of its examples have been in close range. That is why it's always shown as instant sense they are so close and the moment you put your hand up the push comes out. However everything must answer to distance. No matter how fast you go you have to cover that distance. If yoda is going to use it at 50 ft then it has to cover that 50ft. There is no way to question that. It has to cover 50ft whether or not it's instantaneous. Even yoda it took the push a second or two most likely just a second to hit palpatine and they were at a long distance. Dooku it took him a second or two before it hit anakin. Even the force has to answer to distance.
4. Like a lightsaber being able to block spells. Yes I know that this is not a part of this battle but that is speculation. Also yours is speculation that protego can't block the force. The fact that these are two separate universes and deal with two different types of attacks it's unknown whether or not one can block the other. Do not say by logic the force can't be blocked. Well from 50ft I bet it can. All of this is speculation as there are too many factors that each uninverse brings to the table that turn a lot of things to speculation. However protego blocks energy, it even blocks solid objects so this could translate to being able to block yoda if he were to just run up to him. Oh dear so you believe that yoda sitting on his butt for twenty years not doing anything, adding on to his hundreds of years after he became grandmaster and had people like windu and dooku do the work for him while he was able to just mediate on the force and not practice in a combative use, you believe that he was just as powerful as his prime. You have proven that you don't know these things. This is fact as seen by his fights with opposing force weilders, he fails to just launch out force push after force push, his telekenisis shows his struggle to lift three at the very least medium died to small peeves of rocks. While dooku who has been training throughout the war was able to lift 10s if not hundreds of pillars at one time with one weighing way more than all three of those rocks combined. So this is fact you have been defeated on this point so just accept it.
the movies show his most accurate depiction and his most accurate depiction is him struggling. No matter what you say or show it can't block the fact that this dude struggles with the force while people thought to be below him what he struggles with they do on a constant basis.
Dumbledore would be able to apparate out of the way before he gets hit. Also the force is pushing you. Look at what happened to palpatine. He was pushed but he flew then fell. If dumbledore is flying he could definitely apparate before he hits the ground and don't say so now your back to using dumbledore trying to make him a durable person comparing him to palaptine. Any could survive that push.
I mean look at it. A 65 year old dude with no force wall could survive it. Anyone could survive that I mean really. You make his force pushes look like they are just instant kill when they aren't stop doing that. If dumbledore gets hit he could apparate out of it you have no proof that he can't since there have been beings that are non force sensitives that have survived the force push of dooku and the combined might of obi wan and anakin. He's powerful but no instant kill powerful.
Also du,bled ore was able to withstand that poison in Harry Potter half blood prince killing him from the inside. He's dealt with more pain than what a simple 50ft away force push from someone who hasn't trained his combative abilities in tears can do.
Force choke actually can lift you feet off the ground. Yes it's main purpose is to choke but it can lift if the user wants to. Anakin has done it, dooku has done it, sidious has done it, ventress may have done it.
Ok now I'm starting to understand what you explicitly mean by speculation because you use it all the time. Ok it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Dumbledore as seen in the movies needs neither words nor gestures like the force needs no words but they have too use there hands if to use in a combative way. Dumbledore as seen in the movies doesn't need words nor SPECIFIC specific being the keyword gestures to use spells u less it's a gigantic wide range spell such as firestorm, or the aqua spell. Immobulus, the only gesture shown is to launch it where the vast majority of opponents are. Considering the fact that it's only one opponent he could aim his wand in almost any vicinity in which yoda is coming and use it.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
1. Sigh. You want visual aids for me to explain my point? Here:Most attacks emanate from attacker to target in a singular path, this is called line of sight(LOS):
[attacker] -----------------------> [target] [wall]
A shield deflects an attack by coming between an attacker and his target (thus blocking LOS):
[attacker] ---------X(shield) [target] [wall]
TK does not cross the distance between attacker and target and hits instantaneously and thus cannot be blocked by a shield. Proven when Jedis use force abilities even while not having clear LOS of their target (as shown by the examples I provided) as well as the fact that if TK emanated via LOS, things like force pull, or lifting objects, etc. (essentially, the vast majority of force TK abilities wouldn't make sense).
[attacker] <TK>[target]----->[wall] (force push)
[attacker] <------[target]<TK> [wall] (force pull)
And I don't even think force shield/barrier/armor is a canon ability. I don't even think "force wall" exists. Did you make that up?
3. Relative to a force push, which hits instantaneously, force wave is "slow" as it still emanates at an observable pace. It is FAST if we are going simply by its speed. And from how it was seen creeping towards Dooku, how it hits at an aoe and seems to be more powerful than any of Obi Wan's/Anakin's regular force pushes, this def is a force wave.
Lol. I play Swtor. Have 3 characters at max level. And not only is the game non-canon, a whole bunch of abilities don't work even close to the same way as the movie/canon animation versions do. Like force abilities being visible and creating shockwaves. And even in the game, force push (a jedi guardian ability) hits instantly. Might as well use Starkiller "feats", tho.
5. He was using force abilities seamlessly in combat. In the same episode, he also used force push while hiding behind a rock and behind some clone troopers with no clear LOS. You using instances where he was fighting other force users (which is not the case here) who were using their own abilities against him (or when he's lifting a massive weight) is irrelevant as Dumby [b]isn't a force user.
(and does not weigh heavy enough for Yoda to struggle against). In the instances where he fought non-force users (like the video I posted) he needed no effort to use the force and used it seamlessly.Every instance of force push in the movie and animation hit instantenously. This is fact. TK abilities do not need to move via LOS as the force they are exerting is not always relative to the caster (the force can come from any direction). This is fact. There is more evidence (of the Dooku incident) pointing to this being a special case TK attack (like Force Wave) than it is a standard force push. Yes, it is inconclusive on what SPECIFIC attack it was, but it didn't behave like any standard force push performed out there (emanated via LOS, slow moving relative to other force push) and had qualities similar to what a force wave is. In the end, My proof > yours.
Protego blocking TK is pure speculation. As force powers behave differently than physical objects or spells. Yoda being weaker in Empires due to 20 meaningless years (to his race) is pure speculation. Dumbledore having comparable durability to clone troopers is stupid (and is also pure speculation). You stating that Dumby has better durability than heavily plated battle droids is pure speculation. You stating that Dumby can just apperate after getting nailed by a KOing force push is pure speculation. Your entire (wall o' force) description of how the force works is pure speculation (and downright wrong as there are specific instances where force abilities' behavior cannot fit within your description). Yes, you need to differentiate what proof is vs speculation although this could be due to you having a higher standard/requirement of proof for others than what you require of yourself. This is called double standards debating.
6. Yeah, the durability of a human (or humanoid) of their specific size/build.
7. I disagree, if anything, the force is (and needs to be) very resilient in its nature, effect and application of use. As it is a combat ability needs to have multiple methods/techniques for use in various different situations against various difficult/stressful/dangerous situations placed upon the caster. The only requirement constant has only been the need to concentrate. If anything, it is magic that is more prone to disruption as magic often requires you to fulfill specific requirements and conditions in order to perform it.
7a. You can argue that a spell would not need gestures, you can argue that a spell would not need words. Those are acceptable. Hell, I might even accept spells that require neither (given you extend me the same courtesy) if the caster is skilled and advanced enough (like Dumby). But a spell having neither words nor gestures nor time/concentration? You need to show that it's even possible to do that with any combative spell. As of now, you are speculating.
Look at it again. It was BOTH a force choke and a force lift. Force choke doesn't lift you dozens of feet in the air. It's standard application is simply to choke the person (like when Vader uses it). Sidious is not way more powerful than Yoda. Yoda was even able to force absorb a full-on lightning attack from him without a lightsaber. And their battle looked very competitive. I can accept maybe more powerful by a bit but within comparable ranges. [/B]
1. Even the force is seceptable to distance. Add to the fact it's 50 ft. Protego can block physical objects spells all of that. You are seriously cutting down how much I can type you alone take up half of my writing space. Protego not being able to block the force is speculation. As it goes straight for its target he can put up a sheild from 50ft.
2. Force resistance
3. Only reason it seems instantaneous is because they are so up close. Yoda vs sidious not that far apart 10ft max. Ventress and the guards 5-10ft max. Dooku maybe a little more than 10ft but not by much. You see all of these are 1/5 of the distance possible. So add that to the equation.
5. I will have to rematch that episode.
6. The need to concentrate and when you do a force push lightning or you know all the combative abilities hand gestures not digging just fact. Magic does need concentration like the force and if broken can't go as well.
7a. Well accept it or not it's true as seen in the movies. The force however needs gestures as seen in the video you posted yoda needed his hands however there are some objects that you don't need gestures for I will admit that as seen by darth Vader in ESB. However it did take a few seconds before they were able to do what they needed to and if there concentration were broken it would be unsuccessful.