John McClane versus Indiana Jones

Originally posted by Nightstick
On the other hand I don't recall Silent Bob saving Indy's bacon.

I do recall McClane being held at gun point a few times. However where as McClane fights gangs of people. Indy takes on Armies. In other words as soon as McClane has war declared on him by something equivlent to the Third Reich and proceeds to win. Let me know.

Actually he did try to negotiate/talk down Gruber.

That wasnt silent Bob. Silent Bob would have not spoken at length beratting McClane for his lack of SW enthusiasm.
Sorry mate, but theres definitely no similarity in terms of egregious heinousity whatsoever. And at least the Warklock was useful in the plot. But those f**king Gophers and monkeys..? Indys comedic over exaggerated falling down routine in KOTCS..?

He may take on armies, but since they are historically not recognised to have been destroyed by Indy, we know just how good he is at taking on armies. But pretty much everyone McClane had faced is dead. Army or not.

Ok but considering the fact that modern day CIA were better trained and had modern day tech etc, I'd rather fight a very very small proportion of the third reich and leave at that.
Its just silly if you'll forgive me for saying so to make like Indy fought the entire German army.

Notice Indy killing Hitler when he met him face to face...?

No he saluted him instead.

Also: It was Dwayne T Robinson trying to appease Gruber.

I seem to recall McClane shooting him, making him fall out of the window.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth

Notice Indy killing Hitler when he met him face to face...?

No he saluted him instead.

McClane would have killed Der Fuhrer on the spot and used Adolf's limp single-testicled corpse to cover his escape, jumped into the nearest Kubelwagen and made a hasty retreat out of Berlin, most likely leaving the Reichstag ablaze behind him.

Originally posted by Robtard
McClane would have killed Der Fuhrer on the spot and used Adolf's limp single-testicled corpse to cover his escape, jumped into the nearest Kubelwagen and made a hasty retreat out of Berlin, most likely leaving the Reichstag ablaze behind him.

Damned straight. ✅

Witnesses might even have had to use the germanic equivalent of words "Oh the humanity" to describe the carnage.

Okay guys all the McClane would wreck the Third Reich on his own stuff is "cute", but lets be honest folks it took McClane something like an hour and a half(film time, in universe it was more like a day) to take out something like 12 terrorists. Look back at the posted clips here..

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=478733&pagenumber=7

Indy takes out more guys in less then 10 minutes then McClane did in the entire first movie.

Look at the convoy chase scene. Starting on horse back with out weapons. Indy takes out a car, a truck, a motorcycle, and a squad of soldiers.

Near the end of said scene he gets shot and keeps going. The closest he gets to medical treatment is a field dressing. When McClane gets shot or seriously injured he leaves in an ambulance. Not Indy.

As for complaints about Indy's soppy romance scenes. At least he never had a teary eyed hug scene with another man like McClane did with Al.

Lets get back to number though. How many guys did Hans have 12 or so, how many did Stuart have 10-20 maybe, Now Simon had a goodly number(but how many did McClane take out), Gabriel again had handfull(maybe a platoon size at best). So Indy more or less took out more guys in the convoy scene then McClane did in any indivual movie. Heck Indy took out 5-6 guys with one bullet in moments. Mind you thats something like half the number of guys Hans had so Indy did in seconds what it took McClane half a movie to do. In other words if one of them can take on Armies its Indy. How do we know this. Well because he has. It also means Indy is far more of a "killing machine" then McClane. They is a very serious chance that Indy killed more people in Raiders then McClane has in all his movies put together.

I'm sure you guys will ramble about how McClanes enemies are tougher with out really showing any evidence, but it makes no difference. Everything McClane does would be a day at the office for Indy.

You know, now that I think about it, Indy killed more men. Hmm...

Originally posted by Nightstick

I'm sure you guys will ramble about how McClanes enemies are tougher with out really showing any evidence, but it makes no difference.

It's just a fact, and I do realize you will continue to ignore it and dismiss the virtual mountain of evidence shown to you, but alas, some people just want to play games. 🙂

Originally posted by Robtard
It's just a fact, and I do realize you will continue to ignore it and dismiss the virtual mountain of evidence shown to you, but alas, some people just want to play games. 🙂

Not your best counter, but hmm. What can I say.

I do enjoy the fact that you ignore the bulk of the post. The post that more or less disproves the McClane takes out more people then Indy. The idea that John is more of a killing machine. That he is more durable and less sappy then Indy etc etc.

Let leave that aside for a moment though. Lets posit a couple of fights..

Min unarmed(as she was) vs both the cemetary defender in the cemetary armed with their blow guns? Why in the cemetary. Well because while they(the defenders) faced Indy on their home turf Min did not face McClane on hers.

Or even Min unarmed vs the German Mechanic unarmed in a parking lot?

Lets even go with hamster boy with his pistol vs both grave yard defender in the graveyard with their blow guns?

Wait wait a Platoon of Russian or German soldiers with vehicular support vs Hans gang in a warehouse?

Lets try another Gabriels force vs a tank, a convoy of soldiers, and lets throw in a few planes etc?

Or Hans gang in the Thuggee Temple or even the Nakatomi building vs the entire Thuggee order?

Answer the above questions with an honest answer. Then try and tell me that McClane faced deadlier/tougher foes.

Hahahahahaa, I do love how you catered/gimped all those fights to better fit your argument, cute, very cute. I'm actually surprised you didn't pit the black techno nerd in DH1 against the Russians.

Min would have kicked that mechanic's ass, he was slow and his old-school pugilist stance would have been easy for her to dodge/counter.

I don't recall what Gabriel had off the top of my head, only watched that movie once.

Han's (who's a genius) gang had machine guns, explosives and a rocket launcher, they would have cut through the zealot Indians like butter and they would have destroyed the Russians with their antiquated weapons, though not as easy as the Indians.

Hamster boy had more than just a gun, he had body-armor and multiple machine guns and explosives I think, so yeah, he destroys the blow-dart brothers.

So, despite you catering the fights to what you thought were to your argumen'ts advantage, once again the facts prove you wrong, though we both know you ignore facts. Oh, McClane does face deadlier foes, just a fact 🙂

It's 12:40 am here, I have to hit the mattress, you know, work in the morning. You enjoy your morning tea, it's what, about 9:00 am in the U.K.

Here are the facts, movie by movie:

Indy:

Raiders of the Lost Ark: Indy kills 43. 34 were killed by the Ark, but if you are gonna count the 15 that were blwon up on the Jet in DH2, then it's only fair to count the 34 Nazis killed by the Ark.

Temple of Doom: Couldn't find an exact figure, but there had to be at least 100 thuggees killed as Indy escaped the flood through the tunnels, then at least 10 others I can recall.

The Last Crusade: Again, I couldnt find an exact figure, but I am thinking 10 to 15.

Crystal Skull: 11

McClane:

DH: 10

DH2: 23 (15 on the plane.

DH3: 13

DH4: 10ish?

Do the math.

Originally posted by Robtard
Hahahahahaa, I do love how you catered/gimped all those fights to better fit your argument, cute, very cute. I'm actually surprised you didn't pit the black techno nerd in DH1 against the Russians.

I didn't cater to anyone. Tell me where I catered/gimped. I gave enemies what they had in the enviroment or similiar enviroments to where they faced Indy/McClane.

Originally posted by Robtard

Min would have kicked that mechanic's ass, he was slow and his old-school pugilist stance would have been easy for her to dodge/counter.

Exactly how do you expect her to hurt him. He took repeated full on blows from Indy who can put something like 2000psi into a hit. That literaly a ton of force behind his blows. Their is no, absalutly no evidence that Min can hit remotly that hard. She could dodge and counter until she was blue in the face and exhausted and the mechanic would brush himself off and put his fist threw her face.

Originally posted by Robtard

I don't recall what Gabriel had off the top of my head, only watched that movie once.

Well he had a small detachment of armed merc, a helicopters, trucks, cars etc

Originally posted by Robtard

Han's (who's a genius) gang had machine guns, explosives and a rocket launcher, they would have cut through the zealot Indians like butter and they would have destroyed the Russians with their antiquated weapons, though not as easy as the Indians.

Firstly the difference between weapons between the '50's and '80's at least on a small unit tactical level are neglible. A Thompson, M-14, or AK will kill you just as dead as an Berreta, MP5, or Styr(sp?). Just to drive this point home the U.S Army used the Coly .45 from 1911 to the mid 80's and their is still some dispute about wether it was a good idea to convert to the berreta. In fact certain spec ops units in the U.S military haven't made the change. How about the infamous AK-47 which first saw use in, you guest it 1947 and is still a common in sight on the modern battlefield and still a match for the the American M-16. Better in some areas in fact. So with the silly antiqueted wepons argument out of the way. You are really going to suggest a group of 12 high tech theives are going to take out a platoon of Russian spec ops. Now they obviously have a better shot at beating the Thuggee's, but the Thuggees have a huge numbers advantages and ranged weapons of their own in the way of bows(yes these are aniqueted weapons 🙂 ). The truth is with bows as fire support their are likely enough Thuggees to bumb rush Gruber's goons. They also displayed absurd stealth abilities.

Originally posted by Robtard

Hamster boy had more than just a gun, he had body-armor and multiple machine guns and explosives I think, so yeah, he destroys the blow-dart brothers.

When he faced McClane. I recall a single pistol, but I could be remembering wrong.

Originally posted by Robtard

So, despite you catering the fights to what you thought were to your argumen'ts advantage, once again the facts prove you wrong, though we both know you ignore facts. Oh, McClane does face deadlier foes, just a fact 🙂

How did I cater any of these fights? You have proven nothing besides your lack of knowledge in the area of fire arms and other combat related topics

Originally posted by Robtard

It's 12:40 am here, I have to hit the mattress, you know, work in the morning. You enjoy your morning tea, it's what, about 9:00 am in the U.K.

In that case good night. Normaly i'd have work myself, but I managed a day off which is nice. When one is normaly at work from 10am to 10pm give or take. Anyhow cheers.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Here are the facts, movie by movie:

Indy:

Raiders of the Lost Ark: Indy kills 43. 34 were killed by the Ark, but if you are gonna count the 15 that were blwon up on the Jet in DH2, then it's only fair to count the 34 Nazis killed by the Ark.

Temple of Doom: Couldn't find an exact figure, but there had to be at least 100 thuggees killed as Indy escaped the flood through the tunnels, then at least 10 others I can recall.

The Last Crusade: Again, I couldnt find an exact figure, but I am thinking 10 to 15.

Crystal Skull: 11

McClane:

DH: 10

DH2: 23 (15 on the plane.

DH3: 13

DH4: 10ish?

Do the math.

I'm not exactly sure where you are getting your numbers, but in "Temple" Indy took out 9-10 on the rope bridge alone, 1 in the Obi-Wan, tossed 2ish into the volcanoe, ran 1 threw the rock crusher, hung the assassin, and took out about 3 in the mining cart chase. So his kill count, not counting the flood which wasn't his doing. Would be around 17 at least and that's just with a quick review of the film. In "Crusade" their was one on the Coronado, 4 in Venice, 3 in the castle, at least 1 in the bike chase, 1 pilot, and about 7 in the tank chase. Again this is from aquick review of the film and again it is about 17. "Raiders" is a bit more hazy, but I think their were 2-3 in Marions bar, 2-3 in Cairo, the Mechanic, 3 in the car off the cliff, and at least 1 more that got ran over. So the "Raiders" kill count may be the lowest, but it is still up their with McClanes average movie and I don't have "Crystal Skull" handy to review. Not to mention this doesn't take into account the scores more that Indy knocked out and maimed along the way. Nor does it take into account some of the more ambigous could be deaths from wrecks, falls, and beatings.

Again Indy faced as many enemies in the posted convoy chase scene as McClane did in the entirety of his first movie and this was a single scene for Indy.

Just and addendum to my commentary on the Thuggee's on a quick review of the film. They not only had bows, but also single shot rifles/carbines and what appeared to be double action revolvers.

So even if we front Gruber's posse the Nakatomi building. Terrain they are going to know much better then the Thuggee they are still fighting something like 10x their numbers. 2 dozen(give or take) of which are armed with bows and another 5-10 with fire arms. In other words Hans and his boys are out of luck.

Originally posted by Nightstick
I'm not exactly sure where you are getting your numbers, but in "Temple" Indy took out 9-10 on the rope bridge alone, 1 in the Obi-Wan, tossed 2ish into the volcanoe, ran 1 threw the rock crusher, hung the assassin, and took out about 3 in the mining cart chase. So his kill count, not counting the flood which wasn't his doing. Would be around 17 at least and that's just with a quick review of the film. In "Crusade" their was one on the Coronado, 4 in Venice, 3 in the castle, at least 1 in the bike chase, 1 pilot, and about 7 in the tank chase. Again this is from aquick review of the film and again it is about 17. "Raiders" is a bit more hazy, but I think their were 2-3 in Marions bar, 2-3 in Cairo, the Mechanic, 3 in the car off the cliff, and at least 1 more that got ran over. So the "Raiders" kill count may be the lowest, but it is still up their with McClanes average movie and I don't have "Crystal Skull" handy to review. Not to mention this doesn't take into account the scores more that Indy knocked out and maimed along the way. Nor does it take into account some of the more ambigous could be deaths from wrecks, falls, and beatings.

Again Indy faced as many enemies in the posted convoy chase scene as McClane did in the entirety of his first movie and this was a single scene for Indy.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
My point was that if the McClane supporters are gonna use McClane using his lighter to explode the jet, then we can use all the thuggess that died in the flood. They were battling Indy, they were pursuing Indy, they were killed. Same with the nazis killed by the Ark. Indy obtained the Ark, was there when the Nazis opened it, he didnt even bother to wrn them not to look at it. So yeah, he killed them.

Mala Ram actually caused the flood I think. Anyhow I see the circumstances as different McClane took an active, in fact proactive part in the jets destruction. I mean taking them out was his intention. Where as Indy had little to no control over the flood or the Ark.

The big difference between the 2 is even if Indy has only killed as many as McClane. He ruitinely takes on considerable more at a time. Its just that many of them end up unconsious or maimed instead of dead.

Well, I see it as they were in combat with Indy, he lived, they died. And what about the dudes chasing Indy in the rail cars? Should they be counted? I would think so. There were at least ten of them.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Well, I see it as they were in combat with Indy, he lived, they died. And what about the dudes chasing Indy in the rail cars? Should they be counted? I would think so. There were at least ten of them.

It's kind of like if you were in a fight with somebody and somebody else ran up behind said person and knocked them out cold. Yes your still standing and your opponents not, but your not the one that knocked'em out. Its not like an infantrymen is going to get credit for an air strike or a fencer in a dual for an erent lighting strike that takes out his opponent.

One of the rail cars was Indy's doing. It had 3-4 guys in and I counted it. The other was taken out by Willy or Short Round I can't remember which.

I don't really agree that the thuggess who were caught in the flood or the Nazis killed by the Ark should count, I was just pointing out that it took zero skill for Mac to flick a zippo and drop it. It's frigging ridiculous to say Mac is a better HAND TO HAND combatant when all he did was light a lighter and drop it. Or when Mac fought Karl's brother, dude was killed by gravity. Mac fell down the stairs with him, and was lucky enough that dude broke his neck. It's not like Mac grabbed his neck and broke it himself.

Lets go over Mac's h2h combat history:

DH1: Beats Karl
DH2: Beats John Amos, loses to the Colonel
DH3: Has his ass kicked by gangbangers, is rescued by Zeus
DH4: Loses to the Ninja chick. Yes, loses the HAND TO HAND battle, had to use a frigging SUV to kill a GIRL

These are only the ones I remember, have I forgotten any?

Indy? Well, it's fact that he fought far more h2h, multiple enemies at a time, has a one punch KO, takes far more punishment than Mac did, and the only fight he "Lost" was to the big bald Nazi. But if Mac killing the Ninja chick or squirrel boy counts as a h2h win, then Indy never lost a fight, because the big bald nazi dying from the propellor blade should count as a win. When did Mac kill six Nazis with one bullet? Never.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I don't really agree that the thuggess who were caught in the flood or the Nazis killed by the Ark should count, I was just pointing out that it took zero skill for Mac to flick a zippo and drop it. It's frigging ridiculous to say Mac is a better HAND TO HAND combatant when all he did was light a lighter and drop it. Or when Mac fought Karl's brother, dude was killed by gravity. Mac fell down the stairs with him, and was lucky enough that dude broke his neck. It's not like Mac grabbed his neck and broke it himself.

Lets go over Mac's h2h combat history:

DH1: Beats Karl
DH2: Beats John Amos, loses to the Colonel
DH3: Has his ass kicked by gangbangers, is rescued by Zeus
DH4: Loses to the Ninja chick. Yes, loses the HAND TO HAND battle, had to use a frigging SUV to kill a GIRL

These are only the ones I remember, have I forgotten any?

Indy? Well, it's fact that he fought far more h2h, multiple enemies at a time, has a one punch KO, takes far more punishment than Mac did, and the only fight he "Lost" was to the big bald Nazi. But if Mac killing the Ninja chick or squirrel boy counts as a h2h win, then Indy never lost a fight, because the big bald nazi dying from the propellor blade should count as a win. When did Mac kill six Nazis with one bullet? Never.

Most the fights in any of these movies are not straight hand to hand. Normally improvised weapons are employed by both Indy and John. Anyhow McClane did take out a couple of guys in the luggage area in "Die Hard 2" using what ever he could find. Some of it was melee and hand to hand. In said fight John did well for himself.

Yes it took zero skill for John to use his lighter, but it was still an active action, performed by him with intent to kill. Which is far different from Indy outrunning a flood and his pursuers not.

Originally posted by Nightstick
Most the fights in any of these movies are not straight hand to hand. Normally improvised weapons are employed by both Indy and John. Anyhow McClane did take out a couple of guys in the luggage area in "Die Hard 2" using what ever he could find. Some of it was melee and hand to hand. In said fight John did well for himself.

Yes it took zero skill for John to use his lighter, but it was still an active action, performed by him with intent to kill. Which is far different from Indy outrunning a flood and his pursuers not.

This is the problem, people are bringing up feats that are of no relevance. All that matters here are hand to hand feats. **** guns, **** zippos, **** SUV's. They are in a bare metal room and have to duke it out hand to hand.