John McClane versus Indiana Jones

Originally posted by Nightstick
I think what I said was you down play his enemies and you do. You refer to them as midgets, aged, fat etc. All in an appearent attempt to make them sound a lot less significant then McClanes. Again what is Maggie Q going to do against Pat Roach. What is she going to do against Ernie Reyes Jr and his friend from the graveyard. In the first fight she can't hurt him, in the second she is out numbered and can't keep up.

I see, so you're happy to give the Indy bad guys their gear, blown guns and what not, but Min doesn't get her gun? Let me guess, Hamster-boy wouldn't either, right? As he'd obviously obliterate any Indy villain with his agility, quickness and fire-power he was packing in the films.

It's a fact, McClane faces and overcomes much tougher, better armed and far deadlier opponents, as seen in the films. You of course will ignore this.

Good day.

Originally posted by Robtard
I see, so you're happy to give the Indy bad guys their gear, blown guns and what not, but Min doesn't get her gun? Let me guess, Hamster-boy wouldn't either, right? As he'd obviously obliterate any Indy villain with his agility, quickness and fire-power he was packing in the films.

It's a fact, McClane faces and overcomes much tougher, better armed and far deadlier opponents, as seen in the films. You of course will ignore this.

Good day.

Nice try, but no. Indy's villians get their blow guns and what not because they had them. If I remember right it was John not Min who started their fight armed, with a gun to the back of her head no less.

So yes hamster-boy would get his gun. Though I still don't like his odds against two stealthy, proficient fighters, on their home turf with ranged weapons. I mean even if he was a better fighter/acrobat type then either of the graveyard defenders indevidualy. Their are 2 of them and his is not that much better. Added to which they seemed to have better accuracy with their weapons then he did with his.

Prove your "fact" please. I think they have both over come tough and deadly opponent. I wouldn't truly down play any of their opponent as you seem to want to.

Originally posted by Nightstick
When you talk about Indy having trouble standing are you refering to "Crystal Skull" where he road a test rocket at unknown, but obvoisly high speed. With no cushion, no harness, no help absorbing the g-force like actualy pilots get. The same ride that knocked unconciouss the larger, younger, Russian soldier that actually rode it out on the chair. If that your argument for "Gravity" beating Indy you might want to look into such amazing concepts as g-force and pressure. Just a thought.

No Indy's in ability to knock out the boxer doesn't speak for Indy's lack of hitting power which he displays in spades(knock out 2 guys in one hit, sending a Thuggee spraling backward like ten feet). It speaks to the boxers toughness.

"Judo chops" was not meant to be entirely literal. It was more a statment on her fighting style in general and in some senses a joke. She like the mechanic proved herself to be a tough competent fighter.

Fore sure, that was taken as was read, the Judo chops thing.

Even so, G-forces etc, for an Indy that already transcends normal physics, as the punch power estimation figures would denote on the Indy side here would have us believe, that would be a mere trifle, like recieveing toast from an electric toaster.

That wouldn't have had McClane falling over.... He experinced the Gforce of a cabin ejector seat x the energy of that pressure wave from 20 grenades going off below him also in DH2.

And went about his day.

Originally posted by Nightstick
Luck is a usable factor, but it fair to say they both have luck coming out their ears.

Ask any pilot or any body who knows anything about air combat. The way that pilot operated damn near ruined the film for the more militarily minded members of the audience. He more or less sat their and made himself a target and didn't take time to aim.

Was the tank crew the most competent. No. More then the pilot, i'd say so.

Fair points you raise, yet what evidence is there that the pilots actions were not subject to McClane luck...?

Also, those folk you mention..... Ibet they had their equivalents all over the world in various fields of expertise that could punch holes in the artistic licence afforded to the parts, but when it comes down to it, the most relaistic is the more believable and the Mac had the believeablity satkes covered, over indy too.

You know: Nuclear proof fridges, The entire plots of all his films, gophers that seem to pass comment on his every move, like in KOTCS etc.

No amount of gophers or CGI monkeys will save Indy IV from being the indefendable bad comedy mirror indy universe episode of the X-Files that it is.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Fore sure, that was taken as was read, the Judo chops thing.

Even so, G-forces etc, for an Indy that already transcends normal physics, as the punch power estimation figures would denote on the Indy side here would have us believe, that would be a mere trifle, like recieveing toast from an electric toaster.

That wouldn't have had McClane falling over.... He experinced the Gforce of a cabin ejector seat x the energy of that pressure wave from 20 grenades going off below him also in DH2.

And went about his day.

The thing is. That Indy had already taken a beating and spent an undisclosed amount of time in the trunk of a car, that and the speed of the rocket is unknown and as such so are the G-Forces in questions.

As for McClane in Die Hard 2. When/what scene are refering to?

Originally posted by Nightstick
Did ya miss the whole fridge, cliff, sub conversation. Nothing, no lumps McClane has taken even compare. Indy can take hit at just shy of 60 that would have ended DH 1 McClane or any McClane for that matter.

What do you mean more advanced opponents? Just what forms of fighting does McClane have experience with that Indy doesn't? Truth is given Indy's traveling he is probably far more familiar with a variety of fighting styles then McClane. The only thing I can think of(for McClane) is hamster boys modified parkour and that's not really a fighting form and not all that different from some of the things Indy has seen.

Yes Hamster boy was the primary pick styles wise, the training that the fort brag trained cia killers had,
but in terms of physical fitness, more perfected technique etc that comes in time is a whole other force to consider.

That and the fact that most of Indy's opponents seem to go down after one shot that (in some cases wouldnt put down my granny), except the half decent fighters who always whip Indy's arse, suggests that back then, villians werent shit..

Where had Indy seen Parkour. And hey. If it keeps you elusive, its a good thing in combat.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Fair points you raise, yet what evidence is there that the pilots actions were not subject to McClane luck...?

Also, those folk you mention..... Ibet they had their equivalents all over the world in various fields of expertise that could punch holes in the artistic licence afforded to the parts, but when it comes down to it, the most relaistic is the more believable and the Mac had the believeablity satkes covered, over indy too.

You know: Nuclear proof fridges, The entire plots of all his films, gophers that seem to pass comment on his every move, like in KOTCS etc.

No amount of gophers or CGI monkeys will save Indy IV from being the indefendable bad comedy mirror indy universe episode of the X-Files that it is.

None of the films are terribly realalstic. Though Die Hard 1 is likely the closest. Never claimed they were. The point was is that the pilot was and idiot. Frankly you don't have to know anything about air combat to know hovering stationary underneath an opponent rolling back ward. Is a bad idea.

As for the luck argument. Both of them are stupid levels of lucky. So its not like it will be the deciding factor.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Can you see Mac jumping into a jeep with 3 russians and KOing them with a few punches? At 58 years old? Can you see Mac KOing two guys with one punch?

I guess we'll see in about two pictures time, but I'd bet 'yes' sooner than Idy will in to pictures time.
He is smart enough to know though that if you want to destroy an enemy, you destroy the enemy, rather than just tap their glass jaws and leave em alive to risk trying to machine gun your arse later on.. THATS why McClane just does what he can to end the lives of his opponents, then worried about other shit later.

Also, suffice it to say in the toughness stakes, you'll never see McClane replaced by Shia Lebouf.

Originally posted by Nightstick
None of the films are terribly realalstic. Though Die Hard 1 is likely the closest. Never claimed they were. The point was is that the pilot was and idiot. Frankly you don't have to know anything about air combat to know hovering stationary underneath an opponent rolling back ward. Is a bad idea.

As for the luck argument. Both of them are stupid levels of lucky. So its not like it will be the deciding factor.

Well it is in McClanes case.

There couldnt have been 4 movies, otherwise.

In Indy's case it was just greed/bad writing getting greenlighted that lead to Indy IV. 😛

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Yes Hamster boy was the primary pick styles wise,
but in terms of physical fitness, more perfected technique etc that comes in time is a whole other force to consider.

That and the fact that most of Indy's opponents seem to go down after one shot that (in some cases wouldnt put down my granny), except the half decent fighters who always whip Indy's arse, suggests that back then, villians werent shit..

Where had Indy seen Parkour. And hey. If it keeps you elusive, its a good thing in combat.

We have seen villians drop in single hits in Die Hard to. Perhaps not as much, but have you stopped to think that maybe that speaks more to Indy's displayed hitting power then the weakness of his opponents. The fact that he can send a Thuggee flying back like 10ft suggests hitting power beyond that of the best real world boxers. Why well when the American Testing company tested Rocky Marciano's hitting power they concluded that he could hit with enough energy to lift a 1000lbs 1 foot. That woud tranlate to knocking 200lbs 5ft. Which Indy more or less doubled. If Marciano, one of the hardest hitters in boxing history could only hit with 1000psi(a fair estimate based on modern hitters) that means Indy is literaly hitting with a ton of force. Which yes folks is more then enough to put away most people. McClane on the other hand has not done anything to suggest that kind of hitting power.

The decent fighters McClane fights do just as good a job if not better at wrecking him then Indy's.

Dude, I said Indy had not seen Parkour. However the acrobatic/gymnastic/capoira/tae kwan do employed by the graveyard defenders was actually fairly close to the stuff hamster-boy was pulling off.

Originally posted by Nightstick
The thing is. That Indy had already taken a beating and spent an undisclosed amount of time in the trunk of a car, that and the speed of the rocket is unknown and as such so are the G-Forces in questions.

As for McClane in Die Hard 2. When/what scene are refering to?

I guess that why they arent valid excuse for Indy's failure against Gravity.

The scene where he is trapped in sealed cockpit of Esparonza's plane, and the CIA merc guys lob about 20 grenades in through the windows and have the window escape routes covered by gunfire if need be, McClane in a trademark field inventiveness moment straps himself in hurriedly. He pulls the lever and boom the grenades go off just as he is catapulted far above at substantial g force and free for the grenade flavoured death that looked so inevitable only moments before.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Well it is in McClanes case.

There couldnt have been 4 movies, otherwise.

In Indy's case it was just greed/bad writing getting greenlighted that lead to Indy IV. 😛

I'll be honest i'm not sure exactly what you are saying.

As for your commentary on "Crystal Skull". While I had my reservations at first to. Repeat viewings and understanding the years between both both in story and out. It got better. It is a matter of understanding pulp fiction, pop culture etc. Lucas and Speilberg. While they didn't make a perfect picture did an awsome job of tieng Indy into the 50's(and at the same time the 2000's). If one looks at where pulp heros and pop culture were at in the 30's then compares it to the 50's. KOTCS is more or less right on the mark.

Originally posted by Nightstick
I'll be honest i'm not sure exactly what you are saying.

As for your commentary on "Crystal Skull". While I had my reservations at first to. Repeat viewings and understanding the years between both both in story and out. It got better. It is a matter of understanding pulp fiction, pop culture etc. Lucas and Speilberg. While they didn't make a perfect picture did an awsome job of tieng Indy into the 50's(and at the same time the 2000's). If one looks at where pulp heros and pop culture were at in the 30's then compares it to the 50's. KOTCS is more or less right on the mark.

The unsightly skidmark, perhaps...? The movie was shit.
Shuia Lebouf...? How was he 50s except for the really really bad Marlon Brando/James Dean impression.

Indy's OAP soppy marriage fest...? WTF You'd never see McClane go through that soppy shit. Hes a killer. 😛

The rest was taken as granted. How very 'Rick Dangerous 2' of them.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I guess that why they arent valid excuse for Indy's failure against Gravity.

Are you purposely not listening. After being crammed in a trunk for some time and being beat up. Indy lost his footing after being unexpectadly rocket at high speeds with no cushion or brass.

Once again I suggest you look into concepts like g-force and pressure.

Or how about this. Indy walked away from the g-forces expelled by an atomic explosion. Again with none of the customary absorption equipment used by pilots and submerged with a sub. Incuring the pressures in doing so. In other words the rocket on a test site with extra-terrestrial tech available no less. Must have been moving at a substantial speed to effect him.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth

The scene where he is trapped in sealed cockpit of Esparonza's plane, and the CIA merc guys lob about 20 grenades in through the windows and have the window escape routes covered by gunfire if need be, McClane in a trademark field inventiveness moment straps himself in hurriedly. He pulls the lever and boom the grenades go off just as he is catapulted far above at substantial g force and free for the grenade flavoured death that looked so inevitable only moments before.

It a great feat, but it doesn't compare to either the nuke or even possible the rocket sled. As being in an actuall ejection seat designed to help absorb g-force/pressure/and shock would be most usefull. Indy on the other hand didn't have that advantage.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
The unsightly skidmark, perhaps...? The movie was shit.
Shuia Lebouf...? How was he 50s except for the really really bad Marlon Brando/James Dean impression.

Indy's OAP soppy marriage fest...? WTF You'd never see McClane go through that soppy shit. Hes a killer. 😛

The rest was taken as granted. How very 'Rick Dangerous 2' of them.

The simply answer is in the 30's pulp heros ran around the jungles fighting the supernatural for the most part. Look at Doc Savage and Tarzan. That what adventure was that's what pop culture was. By the time of the 50's it was aliens, UFO's, and Spies.

However as whether the movie was good or not is an oppinion thing. So I doubt we can settle this argument in a debate forum.

As for the so called "soppy sh*t" McClane did more or less everything he did for his wife. We also got "soppy" make up scenes with his wife at the end of the first 2 movies and he was all emotional about his daughter in 4. So as they both have some emotional baggage.

Well to be fair the distance from the nuke of which yield we do not know may have helped, but I conecde that the the fridge was propelled a few hundred feet.

Yeah but then attesting further to the Luck of McClane, when a short time later, McClane survived a fully gased up Jet Snowski explodeding while he was a foot above it.

The understanding of Gs and pressure you claim will allow you to see that that, just after the cockpit escape feat was a bit flipping bloody blimming impressive, was it not, guvnor...? 😛

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
The unsightly skidmark, perhaps...? The movie was shit.

Was worse than shit, since it lured you into a false pretense that this was yet another good Indy film and not the shit that was Temple of ShitDoom.

It started out genuinely good, the scene in the government warehouse was classic Indy, they even gave the true fans a little shout out with the glimpse of the Ark. Sure the fridge scene was silly and beyond illogical, but some cheese-stick is expected in and Indy film.

Then we skip forward to the first real exposure of 'brown', Shea Lebouf rolling in looking look some retard-reject off the Wild One set... pretty much shit rolling downhill from there. The monkeys, Shea being Tarzan-esque, extra-dimensional aliens etc.

Originally posted by Nightstick
The simply answer is in the 30's pulp heros ran around the jungles fighting the supernatural for the most part. Look at Doc Savage and Tarzan. That what adventure was that's what pop culture was. By the time of the 50's it was aliens, UFO's, and Spies.

However as whether the movie was good or not is an oppinion thing. So I doubt we can settle this argument in a debate forum.

As for the so called "soppy sh*t" McClane did more or less everything he did for his wife. We also got "soppy" make up scenes with his wife at the end of the first 2 movies and he was all emotional about his daughter in 4. So as they both have some emotional baggage.

Like I said: I understand all that.

But Im saying there is more PIS in Indy IV than there is in the actions of a polit on Die Hard 4.0.

Yeah but its still like comparing Platoon to Gone with the wind in terms of sappy, mushy shit of the entire Allen-Ford story arc in this movie.

Originally posted by Robtard
Was worse than shit, since it lured you into a false pretense that this was yet another good Indy film and not the shit that was Temple of ShitDoom.

It started out genuinely good, the scene in the government warehouse was classic Indy, they even gave the true fans a little shout out with the glimpse of the Ark. Sure the fridge scene was silly and beyond illogical, but some cheese-stick is expected in and Indy film.

Then we skip forward to the first real exposure of 'brown', Shea Lebouf rolling in looking look some retard-reject off the Wild One set... pretty much shit rolling downhill from there. The monkeys, Shea being Tarzan-esque, extra-dimensional aliens etc.

Yup werent any "comedy" CGI gophers in even one of the DHs.

Also, McClane isnt overwhelmed and captured in every movie..
Indy collaborates with the enemy.

McClane doesnt negotiate with terrorists.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Yup werent any "comedy" CGI gophers in even one of the DHs.

On the other hand I don't recall Silent Bob saving Indy's bacon.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth

Also, McClane isnt overwhelmed and captured in every movie..
Indy collaborates with the enemy.

I do recall McClane being held at gun point a few times. However where as McClane fights gangs of people. Indy takes on Armies. In other words as soon as McClane has war declared on him by something equivlent to the Third Reich and proceeds to win. Let me know.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth

McClane doesnt negotiate with terrorists.

Actually he did try to negotiate/talk down Gruber.