Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I'm too tired, and I don't care enough. Next time, maybe.
You don't care enough to answer, then perhaps you shouldn't use interest as a motivation in your participation.
And, according to your previous posts, each and every directed criticism was an open criticism. Does that no longer apply, suddenly? Can you not quote each and every post you've made where you quoted only me and criticized only my statements and behavior? If your posts were open and undirected, you should have no shortage of post to direct me towards.
Originally posted by Devil King
You don't care enough to answer, then perhaps you shouldn't use interest as a motivation in your participation.And, according to your previous posts, each and every directed criticism was an open criticism. Does that no longer apply, suddenly? Can you not quote each and every post you've made where you quoted only me and criticized only my statements and behavior? If your posts were open and undirected, you should have no shortage of post to direct me towards.
It is 11:31 at night. Feel free to go back reread all the posts. Find the answers you are looking for yourself, or do what you have already done and ignore what I have said.
Originally posted by Devil King
Being a mormon isn't in question, being an atheist is. But your refusal to dismiss your self-identification with mormonism is the line you will not cross.
I am a Mormon. I attend church quite often. There is no denying that.
Originally posted by Devil King
Not only because of your refusal, but because you default to their teachings.
Sometimes, yes. If you cut out the "God" stuff in Mormonism, I am sure that you would agree with almost all the concepts taught. (That really is a poor way to relate it to you...but you get the point, right?)
Originally posted by Devil King
Stating that you dismiss your religion when it comes to those things that religion condemns is not taking a little from column A and column B, much less is it logical to assume that one can arbitrairily turn off their religion simply because it runs contrary to their momentay goals.
I guess this is where you and I fundamentally disagree then.
Think of it from a different perspective:
If I was to have this same conversation with a Stake President (Similar to an Arch Bishop.) in my Church, he would be saying the same thing about Mormonism.
Originally posted by Devil King
Money is widely criticized by Jesus.
It appears you missed my point.
Originally posted by Devil King
Introspection is derailed because religion expects you to default to it's teaching.
I can agree there. I was referring to prayers about personal problems...or other solutions that may surface from introspection. However, introspection most certainly does not have to be monopolized by religion and nor should it. You can argue that the perspective on the thoughts that are derived from introspection have a religious element to them and you maybe right, however, God and His teachings are usually the last thing on my mind when doing so and that was my point in bringing it up.
Originally posted by Devil King
Science doesn't attempt to explain away god, despite what many will claim.
I don't really know what to say to that......hmm....that's obvious? 😕 But why does religion have to be involved with science to begin with? (Unless you are measuring something involving religion.) That was really my point.
Originally posted by Devil King
Yes, there is a much better way to approach science: from a totally subjective perspective.
Seriously, I feel dumb...because I don't get it.
Was that sarcasm/a pot shot at over zealous religionists who claim to be scientists?
Originally posted by Devil King
I'm not completely unawares that you can't be dim enough to ask what you do that is religious and then follow it up with multiple examples of how totally and consciously removed from the concept of atheism you truly are.
LOL!!! no, dude, I ask questions and answer them so people can follow my thought process. I have a bad habit of sometimes rambling and not making sense.
And to address your very real and valid point at the end there...
Isn't it possible to go through the motions just to keep your little world together while you try to "figure things out"? That's basically what I'm doing, bro.
Originally posted by Devil King
i do not think god does what he wants; god has no want.
Fair enough. That makes sense too. 👆
Originally posted by Devil King
Despite your accusation being wrong in regards to my statement at the time, the logic of your assumed accusation applies.
Wow...I have no idea what you were saying there. 🙁
Originally posted by Devil King
No, I don't think I was disadvantaged in my education. Like anyone, my education was what I made of it.
That's absolutely true and I am surprised that I didn't think of that.
Originally posted by Devil King
According to the numbers, I might have been at a disadvantage in regards to the teacher my senior year, but she was not an unfair influence on my perspective, she only served to illustrate how biased she was, not a religion that can be widely interpreted. She was just th one with the red pen in that specific situation.
That's a healthy perspective, imo. A lot of people would get down in the dumps about those memories and let it eat at them. This could be an example of a person who doesn't employ God to overcome aversion or unpleasant situations. (I am sure you didn't pray during your time in class with this teacher.) Though you are not atheist, it does further DigiMark's point.
Originally posted by Devil King
Direct me to a post where you criticize Queeq.
*Lurch voice* You rang?
Does my testimony count? I know he criticised me several times. As I ciritcised him. But for some reason it doesn't get nasty with most people. I don't need everyone to agree with me, but I do appreciate a proper debate without labelling and name calling. I cannot really remember Shaky doing that. So in case you consider name calling and criticising the same thing, then no, he didn't criticise me.
Originally posted by dadudemon
There is no denying that.
But you have, multiple times. You do this through your claims that you are a mormon one minute and an atheist the next. I have already addressd healthy skepticism. Questioning is natural, circumstantial and arbitrary dismissal in favor of your momentary desire or circumstance, is not. To consciously dismiss what god wants when you make a descision is theism, not skirting the egde of atheism.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Sometimes, yes. If you cut out the "God" stuff in Mormonism, I am sure that you would agree with almost all the concepts taught. (That really is a poor way to relate it to you...but you get the point, right?)
Willfuly cutting out god is opposed to atheism, in that one never considers god in his descisions or judgements if he is an atheist. He doesn't take a moment to think what god might not like about what they're doing or even to dismiss god. (Not considering god is not an implication of morals in the descision making process; just to direct it specifically to the topic.)
Originally posted by dadudemon
I guess this is where you and I fundamentally disagree then.Think of it from a different perspective:
If I was to have this same conversation with a Stake President (Similar to an Arch Bishop.) in my Church, he would be saying the same thing about Mormonism.
He would be saying what, the same as you or the same as me?
I don't think that it's just you and I that fundamentally disagree.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It appears you missed my point.
then do feel free to explain it to me again.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I can agree there. I was referring to prayers about personal problems...or other solutions that may surface from introspection. However, introspection most certainly does not have to be monopolized by religion and nor should it. You can argue that the perspective on the thoughts that are derived from introspection have a religious element to them and you maybe right, however, God and His teachings are usually the last thing on my mind when doing so and that was my point in bringing it up.
So, you are saying is that like most human beings, religious or otherwise, religion and dogmatic teachings do not enter into your though process when deciding what and how you're going to behave in any given situation.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I don't really know what to say to that......hmm....that's obvious? 😕 But why does religion have to be involved with science to begin with? (Unless you are measuring something involving religion.) That was really my point.
that is not obvious to most people. Neither can it be claimed as logical by someone who defaults to religion when asked questions they can't explain without their religion.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Seriously, I feel dumb...because I don't get it.Was that sarcasm/a pot shot at over zealous religionists who claim to be scientists?
no, it was a simple statement about people who assume that science is the other side of the coin from religion.
Originally posted by dadudemon
LOL!!! no, dude, I ask questions and answer them so people can follow my thought process. I have a bad habit of sometimes rambling and not making sense.And to address your very real and valid point at the end there...
Isn't it possible to go through the motions just to keep your little world together while you try to "figure things out"? That's basically what I'm doing, bro.
it's very possible. In fact it is the most prevelant default mode for most people who claim to be "religious". But it also highly illustrates their hypocrisy. I'm sure it could serve as a condemnation of christian scientists
Originally posted by dadudemon
Wow...I have no idea what you were saying there. 🙁
I'm saying when you accused me of it, you were wrong.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That's a healthy perspective, imo. A lot of people would get down in the dumps about those memories and let it eat at them. This could be an example of a person who doesn't employ God to overcome aversion or unpleasant situations. (I am sure you didn't pray during your time in class with this teacher.) Though you are not atheist, it does further DigiMark's point.
The only depressing thought I have in regards to the situation is that others won't think objectively about the situation. Many people will associate the truth that they have to conform and kowtow to succeed in school in order to succeed at life after high school because they think that high school defines your life after it.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is 11:31 at night. Feel free to go back reread all the posts. Find the answers you are looking for yourself, or do what you have already done and ignore what I have said.
So, you did not claim that all posts you've made are directed generally, and not specifically?
and you care so little that you said anything at all? Is that not what you're saying now?
I listen to you just fine, like I have for the last three years of posts and private messages. The apparent disconnect in logic between one statement and the next aren't relevant?
Well.....errr.... what I posted... 😕
But in case you didn';t read the rest of my post... I guess, here it is again.... 😕
Originally posted by queeq
Does my testimony count? I know he criticised me several times. As I ciritcised him. But for some reason it doesn't get nasty with most people. I don't need everyone to agree with me, but I do appreciate a proper debate without labelling and name calling. I cannot really remember Shaky doing that. So in case you consider name calling and criticising the same thing, then no, he didn't criticise me.
You're intelligent, it wasn't that hard
Originally posted by queeq
in case you consider name calling and criticising the same thing, then no, he didn't criticise me.
So the answer is: YES he criticised me but not in nasty ways. But I guess a testimony doesn't count in your court of law. You could have just said so.
But go on and play your game, DK, play your bring-lots-of-evidence-before-I-believe-you-so-I- don't-have-to-accept-anything-I-don't-like-for-any-reason game... Hope you enjoy it on your own.
Originally posted by queeq
You're intelligent, it wasn't that hard
Funny, that doesn't look like a quote of anything Shaky said.
Maybe he'll post it once he cares enough and has gotten some rest.
Originally posted by queeq
So the answer is: YES he criticised me but not in nasty ways. But I guess a testimony doesn't count in your court of law. You could have just said so.
I'm sorry, where are the posts where he criticized you for arguing with me and the method you employed to do so?
That's asinine. I never said "testimony" doesn't count. I said irrelevant "testimony" doesn't count. And if your examples, which neither of you seem to be able to post, are relevant to the specific disagreement, they would be, well...relevant.
Originally posted by queeq
But go on and play your game, DK, play your bring-lots-of-evidence-before-I-believe-you-so-I- don't-have-to-accept-anything-I-don't-like-for-any-reason game... Hope you enjoy it on your own.
It doesn't have to be "lots-of-evidence", it has to be any at all.
I'm sure in your next post, you'll have examples of his directed condemnation of your posts in regards to our (yours and mine) disagreements. (This means you'll have quoted posts by shaky, not you reposting more irrelevant posts of your own)
In fact, if you post at all, you have already dismissed your claim that I argue with myself on my own. I look forward to you not derailing threads by responding to me with sarcasm, accusation and claims of victimization.
Originally posted by Devil King
But you have, multiple times. You do this through your claims that you are a mormon one minute and an atheist the next.
No, I am a Mormon who has atheistic doubts. I swing back and forth all the time.
Originally posted by Devil King
I have already addressd healthy skepticism. Questioning is natural, circumstantial and arbitrary dismissal in favor of your momentary desire or circumstance, is not. To consciously dismiss what god wants when you make a descision is theism, not skirting the egde of atheism.
I can and will continue to have conflicting ideals. It doesn't matter that you don't agree with it. I can, will, and do have atheistic thoughts and actions. Sometimes, it gets to the point to where I know that religion is a farce and atheism the obvious and correct choice. Again, I can and will continue to flip-flop on a whim between atheism and Mormonism.
Originally posted by Devil King
Willfuly cutting out god is opposed to atheism, in that one never considers god in his descisions or judgements if he is an atheist.
Who said I was willfully cutting out God? Who's to say that what you say is true? So you mean to tell me that all of a sudden "POOF!" someone is atheist and never looks back again? Dude, you have to allow for doubt in something like theism vs. atheism. (I read back over my point here...and it seems rather antagonistic on my part.)
Originally posted by Devil King
He doesn't take a moment to think what god might not like about what they're doing or even to dismiss god. (Not considering god is not an implication of morals in the descision making process; just to direct it specifically to the topic.)
Great...usually neither do it. This is my point and why we disagree. It is NOT a simple black and white process. If it was, then it would be a simple decision and there would be no such things as doubter on either side. There may come a time when I completely discard atheism ideals...but that most certainly is not now.
Originally posted by Devil King
He would be saying what, the same as you or the same as me?
Neither. He would be saying what you are saying...except flipping the words and ideas "atheism" and "mormonism".
Originally posted by Devil King
I don't think that it's just you and I that fundamentally disagree.
That should be obvious. But since you and I are discussing it, that is the restriction I put into that sentence.
Originally posted by Devil King
then do feel free to explain it to me again.
I do no subscribe to the thought that I should earn money to do good, I believe that I earn money for my own personal selfish needs without regards for a God or doing good. Unless I am forced to, God never enters into the equation or my thoughts when it comes to things of money.
I could even post scriptures that Mormons believe that directly contradict my thoughts.
Originally posted by Devil King
So, you are saying is that like most human beings, religious or otherwise, religion and dogmatic teachings do not enter into your though process when deciding what and how you're going to behave in any given situation.
Are you talking about things like WWJD? (What Would Jesus Do) I strongly disagree with your point of view. I would say that the vast majority of people rely on their religious beliefs to govern their behaviors (the ones they view as debatable, moral, etc.) in some form or another. This would not be the case with an atheist who takes no thought or regard to things like "WWJD"; God or things of God would not enter into the equation.
Originally posted by Devil King
that is not obvious to most people. Neither can it be claimed as logical by someone who defaults to religion when asked questions they can't explain without their religion.
Sounds like you misinterpreted my perspective when I answered your question about being created in the image of Santa God.
Remember this?
Originally posted by dadudemon
My religion tells me that I should say yes. My own personal beliefs, which are not necessarily the beliefs of my religion, also say yes that we are/were created in the image of God....but these very same personal beliefs say that no God exists.
Sounds pretty consistent that I am conflicted with a theistic and an atheistic perspective. Do you agree?
Originally posted by Devil King
no, it was a simple statement about people who assume that science is the other side of the coin from religion.
Oh. Well I'm glad that I'm not one of those people.
Originally posted by Devil King
it's very possible. In fact it is the most prevelant default mode for most people who claim to be "religious". But it also highly illustrates their hypocrisy. I'm sure it could serve as a condemnation of christian scientists
Hypocritical? If you say I am, I am.
Originally posted by Devil King
I'm saying when you accused me of it, you were wrong.
I'm still lost. When did I accuse of something? If I was wrong, I will definitely admit fault and apologize.
Originally posted by Devil King
The only depressing thought I have in regards to the situation is that others won't think objectively about the situation. Many people will associate the truth that they have to conform and kowtow to succeed in school in order to succeed at life after high school because they think that high school defines your life after it.
Heh heh, I learned more about succeeding at life by working for my money...something that I couldn't/didn't learn in a school building or Church.
Originally posted by queeq
But go on and play your game, DK, play your bring-lots-of-evidence-before-I-believe-you-so-I- don't-have-to-accept-anything-I-don't-like-for-any-reason game...
😆 😆 😆 😆
LMFAO.
Excessive much with your hyphenated adjective? That was as excessive as the joint in my sig. 😉
LOL, I just read it again and its still made me "lol".
Anyway, I don't know how you would search for what DK is looking for. You would have to remember specific examples and then use the search feature for them...the search feature on this board is not good enough, imo, to provide DK with adequate evidence to support your case....unless you can remember specific examples. I don't know what they call it in a court but you may have to concede the point because of lack of evidence. 😕