I've always maintained that Batman is the better martial arts exponent. Easily.
The thing that Captain America has an advantage in is the fact that the SS serum basically makes him immune to the effects of lactic acid buildup. In simple speak, this means that his muscles never get fatigued, and consequently Steve can fight at full-steam indefinitely.
That is the only advantage afforded to him by the SSS.
Now, some say that the SSS also makes him at the peak of human ability. That is very true. However, Batman is also at the peak of human ability ....the only difference is he took the traditional route instead of imbuing some secret Government formula. The two are more or less peers.
The only physical difference is that the SSS enables Steve to go all out and never get tired. That is something that cannot be said about Bruce.
Sure, Bruce can be able to go further longer stronger than most 'humans' (an inside joke at DC ....check out a young Bruce Wayne kicking mature trees asunder), but sooner or later fatigue will set in. It will just take much longer than it would another person (for reference check out KnightFall ....before Bane broke Bruce's back, he systematically wore down the guy by causing crisis after crisis over a several week period. By the time Bane caught up with Bruce, Bruce was thoroughly spent).
Thus that is the major difference between Cap and Bruce in terms of physical ability. Both have done insane physical feats, both of them have throwing and accuracy abilities that can make BullsEye nod his head a bit, both can take down trained spec-ops vets like they were chumps, and both are simply awesome.
Both are also 'peak humans' (although DCs and Marvels understanding of 'peak human' is very questionable).
The only difference is in lactic acid buildup .
And there is one other difference .....Bruce is easily the better martial arts exponent. The guy has mastered 127 different styles, including some eclectic stuff. Not to say Cap is a worse fighter .....but in terms of MA Bruce is better.
Does this mean that Bruce can beat Cap, or Cap can beat Bruce?
No comment on that .....all I am saying is that Bruce is the better martial artist. Depending on the day, Cap could be a better fighter (and the next day Bruce could be the better fighter). But Bruce will always be the better martial artist.
Originally posted by spetznaz
I've always maintained that Batman is the better martial arts exponent. Easily.The thing that Captain America has an advantage in is the fact that the SS serum basically makes him immune to the effects of lactic acid buildup. In simple speak, this means that his muscles never get fatigued, and consequently Steve can fight at full-steam indefinitely.
That is the only advantage afforded to him by the SSS.
Now, some say that the SSS also makes him at the peak of human ability. That is very true. However, Batman is also at the peak of human ability ....the only difference is he took the traditional route instead of imbuing some secret Government formula. The two are more or less peers.
The only physical difference is that the SSS enables Steve to go all out and never get tired. That is something that cannot be said about Bruce.
Sure, Bruce can be able to go further longer stronger than most 'humans' (an inside joke at DC ....check out a young Bruce Wayne kicking mature trees asunder), but sooner or later fatigue will set in. It will just take much longer than it would another person (for reference check out KnightFall ....before Bane broke Bruce's back, he systematically wore down the guy by causing crisis after crisis over a several week period. By the time Bane caught up with Bruce, Bruce was thoroughly spent).
Thus that is the major difference between Cap and Bruce in terms of physical ability. Both have done insane physical feats, both of them have throwing and accuracy abilities that can make BullsEye nod his head a bit, both can take down trained spec-ops vets like they were chumps, and both are simply awesome.
Both are also 'peak humans' (although DCs and Marvels understanding of 'peak human' is very questionable).
The only difference is in lactic acid buildup .
And there is one other difference .....Bruce is easily the better martial arts exponent. The guy has mastered 127 different styles, including some eclectic stuff. Not to say Cap is a worse fighter .....but in terms of MA Bruce is better.
Does this mean that Bruce can beat Cap, or Cap can beat Bruce?
No comment on that .....all I am saying is that Bruce is the better martial artist. Depending on the day, Cap could be a better fighter (and the next day Bruce could be the better fighter). But Bruce will always be the better martial artist.
You cant prove that Batman is a better MA than Cap. Cap knows lots of styles as well. Batman fought Cap H2H and said it seemed if Cap almost had the advantage. Even without the SSS hes beaten martial experts and made Thunderstrike look silly. The SSS gives him the advantage without it it would probably be a draw.
Apparently it was stated in WW2 that he had mastered every style but I dont have the scan.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You cant prove that Batman is a better MA than Cap. Cap knows lots of styles as well. Batman fought Cap H2H and said it seemed if Cap almost had the advantage. Even without the SSS hes beaten martial experts and made Thunderstrike look silly. The SSS gives him the advantage without it it would probably be a draw.Apparently it was stated in WW2 that he had mastered every style but I dont have the scan.
I can show that Batman knows 127 styles (I can even give you an ISBN number plus page number if you want to order the issue yourself from Barnes and Noble or Amazon)
I can show the martial arts lineage Bruce went through as a young man, and what he also had to go through again when he was broken.
I said that the SSS gives Cap an advantage, but only in terms of lack of fatigue poisons building up in his system.
Cap would ALMOST seem to have the advantage if they were equal. That is logical.
I would PAY to see where it says that Steve had mastered every style, but I am not going to hold my breath on you providing that
Originally posted by spetznaz
I can show that Batman knows 127 styles (I can even give you an ISBN number plus page number if you want to order the issue yourself from Barnes and Noble or Amazon)I can show the martial arts lineage Bruce went through as a young man, and what he also had to go through again when he was broken.
I said that the SSS gives Cap an advantage, but only in terms of lack of fatigue poisons building up in his system.
Cap would ALMOST seem to have the advantage if they were equal. That is logical.
I would PAY to see where it says that Steve had mastered every style, but I am not going to hold my breath on you providing that
Look at the scan above. Even if he know more doesnt even neccesarily make him better because Batmans MA feats dont even come above Caps anyway.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Mew.BTW, Cap used to have enhanced superstrength at one point in his career back in the eighties. Does that count as his strongest incarnation? Or are we really just talking about their most regular incarnation?
Didnt Cap use to have superstrength during WW2?
Originally posted by Silent Master
Well, let me be the first to say that that post kind of knocks the taste out of my mouth!
I doubted that it existed, and basically dared Phantom Zone to produce a scan.
Well ....I had not even posted that reply before Silent Master posted said scan.
Good work PZone and SMaster, and yup ....you got me good.
Now let me go curl up in some corner (LOL)
Seriously ....good job. Always a pleasure when someone can knock one back with proof.
Originally posted by spetznaz
Well, let me be the first to say that that post kind of knocks the taste out of my mouth!I doubted that it existed, and basically dared Phantom Zone to produce a scan.
Well ....I had not even posted that reply before Silent Master posted said scan.
Good work PZone and SMaster, and yup ....you got me good.
Now let me go curl up in some corner (LOL)
Seriously ....good job. Always a pleasure when someone can knock one back with proof.
Fair enough mate. 👆
The serum does a lot more than prevent "lactic acid build up." It turned a dumb scrawny kid into a strategic tactical genius. It amped his mind as well as his body. Captain America isn't just "peak human" he is "peak human." And the serum keeps him at maximum human performance.
I am not saying Bruce is bad. By all means no. He is the best at what he does. Bruce trained his body and mind to rival and even surpass those of an olympic athlete, but the super soldier serum provides all that and much more. Bruce puts up a valiant heroic fight, but eventually he gets outlasted and put down by Captain America. Unfortunately for Bruce, Captain America is the best at what he does: being America's "Super Soldier."
-Evangel94
Come on this is not even worth debating. It has to be Cap. No one who reads comics seriously can objectively pick bats. Its clsoe but cap has better skils, speed, strength and endurance. Cap has the SSS and trains all day long every day. Bruce surely does not train as hard as cap because he has a multi billion dollar enterpirise to be involvbed with as well as being a superhero
captain america +'s
-captain is an american weapon, a one man army of sorts.
- he was "assigned" the task of taking out hitler.
-beat the black panther in personal combat
-only given a shield, imagine if it were a personal force field
-personally trains most of the best superheroes ma
-super soldier serum enhanced body, intensive daily training for hours even though he really can't weaken
-almost tireless
-uncanny accuracy
-peak human everything including thought processes
-fought along side wolverine as equals and is respected by him
-trained the likes of Buchanan "bucky" Barnes, later to become the winter soldier
batman +'s
-natural peak human=intense training
-master of tons of arts and some forbidden techniques
-many gadgets and deploys them with unnatural skill and accuracy
-silent ninja-like movements, attack, stealth, suit etc
-self-appointed one man army with great battle record
-trained the likes of Dick grayson, jason todd,(hush,nightwing) and other vigilantes
tough call but i (imo) would go for ...........cap solely due to the super soldier serum. i mean, a super soldier is just that, a super soldier.
maybe cap is holding back in someway cause in the ultimates he is pretty badass
Originally posted by OneDumbG0that was the U.S agent, a power broker enhanced agent. he could lift ten tons routinely.
Mew.BTW, Cap used to have enhanced superstrength at one point in his career back in the eighties. Does that count as his strongest incarnation? Or are we really just talking about their most regular incarnation?
Originally posted by severanceWow doesn't train as hard? Nah he still trains hard despite having his company how do you think he can beat the crap out of super powered beings above peak human like Bane or Killer Croc. Batman and Cap are on the same level but the serum gives Cap the edge. Like somebody said being adept and mastering are two different things.
Come on this is not even worth debating. It has to be Cap. No one who reads comics seriously can objectively pick bats. Its clsoe but cap has better skils, speed, strength and endurance. Cap has the SSS and trains all day long every day. Bruce surely does not train as hard as cap because he has a multi billion dollar enterpirise to be involvbed with as well as being a superhero
personally i give the slight edge to bruce on account of being the better martial artist. not only does he know more MA's than cap he also knows some lethal moves (of couse he won't do them here). now a simple question, does SSS offer some sort of healing factor? i was just wondering since cap seems to have insane endurance. of course its not like logan's or Deadpool's but does he heal faster than a normal human?
at any rate, the point i'm trying to make is that bruce can break Cap's leg or arm and just KO him? Cap wasn't "blunt trauma proof". just a thought though. i'm open to opinions.
I'm giving it to bruce 5.5/10 for the time being though.
~Sado
Originally posted by iceman24567
Wow doesn't train as hard? Nah he still trains hard despite having his company how do you think he can beat the crap out of super powered beings above peak human like Bane or Killer Croc. Batman and Cap are on the same level but the serum gives Cap the edge. Like somebody said being adept and mastering are two different things.
Bane and killer croc are barely superpowered. My point is Cap has all day to train Bruce doesn't. Wasn't suggesting Bruce doesn't train hard. Also becaus eof SSS Steve can recover faster than Bruce from his training so he can train harder for longer. As he has peak human reflexes and strength etc. he will be better than Bruce at fighting it is as simple as that