Those words aren't present in the translations I used, in fact I've never seen them used before at all, and regardless many means most, leaving an exception for Bahamut Shin. Once again, the Shadow Creepers aren't normal summons. They are only capable of being summoned by the remnants, and are made of tainted lifestream. Please, quit grasping at straws and concede, you're getting ridiculous here.
Supernova and the summons besides Bahamut Shin all have illusions for environmental effects.
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Those words aren't present in the translations I used, in fact I've never seen them used before at all, and regardless many means most, leaving an exception for Bahamut Shin. Once again, the Shadow Creepers aren't normal summons. They are only capable of being summoned by the remnants, and are made of tainted lifestream. Please, quit grasping at straws and concede, you're getting ridiculous here.Supernova and the summons besides Bahamut Shin all have illusions for environmental effects.
So where did u find that translation? You forgot im guessing? You obviously purposely put there so you can try to fool people into believing that "all" summons have that.
Shadow Creeps are infact summons as stated by the UOG, the only difference is that Shadow Creeps tap into the power of the negative lifestream as other summons tap into the power of the original lifestream, but there has never been shown any difference between the negative lifestream, and the original lifestream besides the fact that Sephiroth and his remnants are able to control it.
But nonetheless they are SUMMONs, just from the NL instead of the normal lifestream.
I'm debating here and all you're doing is giving me nothing except begging me to concede for some reason.
Where does it say "all"? No where, i dont see where ur getting that all summons besides bahamut sin does that (besides the fake quote you posted), infact we only see three, the two in crisis core, and kotr in ff7.
I never said it said all, as it excludes Bahamut Shin. The fact is that the quote does not specifically say any other summons can appear in the real world, and none of them are ever shown doing so. FF VII is not a good example, as it has been retconned.
So where did u find that translation? You forgot im guessing? You obviously purposely put there so you can try to fool people into believing that "all" summons have that.
LOL. No, actually I have a friend who speaks Japanese and gives me info from his Ultimanias and Complete Guides. Even if I were "making up quotes," which clearly I'm not given that you posted the same quote only slightly different, its better than you making socks to help yourself debate.
Shadow Creeps are infact summons as stated by the UOG, the only difference is that Shadow Creeps tap into the power of the negative lifestream as other summons tap into the power of the original lifestream, but there has never been shown any difference between the negative lifestream, and the original lifestream besides the fact that Sephiroth and his remnants are able to control it.
Wrong again, junior. The UOG says nothing whatsoever about Shadow Creepers. The Reunion Files says they are "summons," but they are not summons like the other summoned beasts. Actual summoned beasts require a materia to use and are their own entity, Shadow Creeper are the SHM manipulating negative mako.
The Crisis Core Complete Guide makes this perfectly clear when it says summons are used via materia, and the Shadow Creepers are not.
But nonetheless they are SUMMONs, just from the NL instead of the normal lifestream.
See above, sport. They aren't summons.
I'm debating here and all you're doing is giving me nothing except begging me to concede for some reason.
LOL. Debating? No, what you're doing is spouting unsupported nonsense and clinging to retconned sequences that the creators themselves have spoken against. You need to concede because you've lost, as clearly reference by the fact that only your sock ha agreed with you. 😆 😆
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
I never said it said all, as it excludes Bahamut Shin. The fact is that the quote does not specifically say any other summons can appear in the real world, and none of them are ever shown doing so. FF VII is not a good example, as it has been retconned.
That means that all summons environmental effects are illusions, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
According to the creators the summons in FF VII all bring you into an illusionary realm.
That means that all summons environmental effects are illusions,
You've been claiming that ALL summons are illusions, when the PROPER text doesn't say that at all.
FF7 is retconned? Because there were 2 summons in Crisis Core that brought Zack into a realm to fight means FF7 is retconned?
LOL. No, actually I have a friend who speaks Japanese and gives me info from his Ultimanias and Complete Guides. Even if I were "making up quotes," which clearly I'm not given that you posted the same quote only slightly different, its better than you making socks to help yourself debate.
And you've got to be quite ignorant as to think that i'm making "socks" to talk to you, please go ask a mod so you can prove yourself wrong once again.
Wrong again, junior. The UOG says nothing whatsoever about Shadow Creepers. The Reunion Files says they are "summons," but they are not summons like the other summoned beasts. Actual summoned beasts require a materia to use and are their own entity, Shadow Creeper are the SHM manipulating negative mako.
All materia does is TAP INTO THE POWER OF THE LIFESTREAM
The SHM were able to control a small portion of the NL thus they were able to summon the shadow creepers WITHOUT materia.
The Crisis Core Complete Guide makes this perfectly clear when it says summons are used via materia, and the Shadow Creepers are not.
See above, sport. They aren't summons.
LOL. Debating? No, what you're doing is spouting unsupported nonsense and clinging to retconned sequences that the creators themselves have spoken against. You need to concede because you've lost, as clearly reference by the fact that only your sock ha agreed with you. 😆 😆 [/B]
You've been claiming that ALL summons are illusions, when the PROPER text doesn't say that at all.FF7 is retconned? Because there were 2 summons in Crisis Core that brought Zack into a realm to fight means FF7 is retconned?
No, I've alwasy said that it wasn't the case with Bahamut SHin, the only actual summon to not draw you into an illusion.
Also, it was three summons in Crisis Core and the fact that the CC CG says the majority of summons do i, with the exception of B Shin.
Exactly, they are SUMMONsAll materia does is TAP INTO THE POWER OF THE LIFESTREAM
The SHM were able to control a small portion of the NL thus they were able to summon the shadow creepers WITHOUT materia.
Summoned creatures have always been around with the planet, the Shadow Creepers are a manipulation of the NL by the SHM, much as the SHM are NL being manipulated by Sephiroth's will. They aren't summons in the proper sense. The SHM aren't summons, so why do you think the Shadow Creepers are?
Again, all materia does is tap into the power of the lifestream, SHM are capable of controlling a small portion of the NL thus they are able to summon the shadow creepers WITHOUT materia
Wrong again, sport. Materia bring an already existing creature to attack the victim, the shadow creatures are corporeal NL. If the SHM decided to shape some NL into a poodle, it wouldn't be a summon.
Comprehend facts, they are summons.
I need to comprehend facts? 😆😆😆 Don't be so silly, sport.
What am i spouting that is "unsupported"? How about you explain how "all" summon require them to bring them into a realm to hurt them, oh thats right, your fake text already got corrected, guess you cant do that.
Find me a quote saying not all summons in FF VII are causded by an illusion and then we'll talk. Until then, the only exception the creators made was B Shin, meaning you've lost.
Now back on topic, as demonstrated by the game, its creators, common sense, and the attack itself, Supernova is inarguably an illusion. To say otherwise is laughable.
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
No, I've alwasy said that it wasn't the case with Bahamut SHin, the only actual summon to not draw you into an illusion.
Also, it was three summons in Crisis Core and the fact that the CC CG says the majority of summons do i, with the exception of B Shin.
Summoned creatures have always been around with the planet, the Shadow Creepers are a manipulation of the NL by the SHM, much as the SHM are NL being manipulated by Sephiroth's will. They aren't summons in the proper sense. The SHM aren't summons, so why do you think the Shadow Creepers are?
Wrong again, sport. Materia bring an already existing creature to attack the victim, the shadow creatures are corporeal NL. If the SHM decided to shape some NL into a poodle, it wouldn't be a summon.
All matera does is aids the person into tapping into different parts of the lifestreams power, depending on what materia is using, but all it really is, is just the power of the lifestream, as stated in the UOG:
"Materia links someone to the planet and allows
them to use its powers, its most likely that the materia allows someone to tap into the Lifestream's energy and manifest it as a spell based on the specs of the materia they're using."
SHM were able to summon without Materia because they have some control over the Negative Lifestream, but Shadow Creepers are STILL summons as stated by the creators themselves.
Find me a quote saying not all summons in FF VII are causded by an illusion and then we'll talk. Until then, the only exception the creators made was B Shin, meaning you've lost.
If all summons were illusions, then the word "many" would be replaced by the word "all", or in your case, if you cut out the word "many of" leaving it to just "the summons" then it COULD be taken as "all of the of summons"
If it wasn't only Bahamut Shin that could interact with the real world, they would have listed other summons. This is a simple fact. They outright stated many, many is not just three, many is a large number, and because they only gave one exception, there is only one exception.
The Shadow Creepers are not traditional summons, they have nothing to do with the planet. They, like the SHM themselvers, are just manipulated stagnant mako. The SHM are "summoned" by Sephiroth just as the SCs are "summons" of the SHM.
Now, since you can't form a coherent argument I'm afraid you're going to have to go one ignore.
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
[B]If it wasn't only Bahamut Shin that could interact with the real world, they would have listed other summons. This is a simple fact. They outright stated many, many is not just three, many is a large number, and because they only gave one exception, there is only one exception.
The Shadow Creepers are not traditional summons, they have nothing to do with the planet. They, like the SHM themselvers, are just manipulated stagnant mako. The SHM are "summoned" by Sephiroth just as the SCs are "summons" of the SHM.
They are SUMMONs, stop arguing with the creators words, SHM are physical manifestations of Sephiroth, SHM SUMMONED the Shadow Creepers, as the UOG says, they are SUMMONs.
Summons are from the power of the lifestream
Shadow Creepers are from the power of the negative lifestream
there hasn't shown to be any difference between the negative lifestream and the regular lifestream besides the fact that the negative are different color and are under Sephiroths control.
Again, like the creators said: Shadow Creepers are summons, don't argue the creators word.
Now, since you can't form a coherent argument I'm afraid you're going to have to go one ignore.
Originally posted by fascistcrusaderIt doesn't even hint at it being an illusion.Their own world would be wherever summons exist when their not being summoned.
Did you read it? It says they bring you into their own space(see: illusion) and that Bahamut Shin can interact with the real world. If they weren't illusionary then they wouldn't specify between the summons "own realm" and the real world. Also, as pointed out earlier Crisis Core clearly shows us they take their victim into an illusionary realm.
It doesn't even hint at it being an illusion.Their own world would be wherever summons exist when their not being summoned.
It states that they're illusions quite explicitly. They don't exist when they're not being summoned. This isn't FF IV where all the summons hang out underground when not beng called, they simply aren't around when they aren't being used. Go play Crisis Core, it will explain everything.
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
*facepalm*
Calm the feck down.
Pointing out the gaping hole in your "argument" is in no way a logical falacy. Saying that space is made up of matter is the fallacy.
No, it was a fallacy of equivocation because, and as was quite clear, both I and the text were speaking of "space" as in a certain area that encompasses matter. Not actual empty space.
Once again, go play Crisis Core.
Already been done. Three times. The third time with an extremely thorough and complete FAQ. Every time we're shown a Summon, the scenery changes to fit "their own unique space." Nothing indicates that anything about that is a product of an illusion, and the creators' words disprove that. That you would make such an assumption says a lot about your lack of a brain.
No, it was a fallacy of equivocation because, and as was quite clear, both I and the text were speaking of "space" as in a certain area that encompasses matter. Not actual empty space.
No, they were speaking of an illusionary space that the victim is drawn into.
No, it was a fallacy of equivocation because, and as was quite clear, both I and the text were speaking of "space" as in a certain area that encompasses matter. Not actual empty space.
Unfortunately for you they were clearly speaking of an illusiionary space, even Terry can admit that.
Already been done. Three times. The third time with an extremely thorough and complete FAQ. Every time we're shown a Summon, the scenery changes to fit "their own unique space." Nothing indicates that anything about that is a product of an illusion, and the creators' words disprove that. That you would make such an assumption says a lot about your lack of a brain.
You sure have a problem facing reality. We are clearly shown that its an illusion. Zack is not drawn in to anything, the landscape simply changes. That alone proves it is illusionary, silly. By the way, you shouldn't flame after being proven wrong by myself and the game's creators. It makes you look ridiculous.
Caecilius, refrain from insults, thank you.
By the way, fascistcrusader, there is a fallacy in your argument. "Their own unique space" in no way translates to "an illusion." "Space" in this context is most likely "the intervening contents of a volume", which, as it is qualified as "unique", probably means the Summon's personal "dimension", where it exists when not in use. Therefore, it would seem that when a Summon is used, there is a temporary breach between dimensions where the Summon and the victim exist in both dimensions at once.
So, no, not really illusory.