Safer Sephiroth vs. Kain

^ very good point.

Originally posted by fascistcrusader
How do you not get this? You pretty much answered it in the question.

They images in the training room aren't real, they're illusionary. These same images can cause lethal damage, as we're told by Hojo and the fact that a fake Sephiroth broke Zack's sword. This proves that illsuions can cause damage in the world of FF VII.

No, this proves Shinra has the technologies to make their holographs capable of damage

Summons are magic based, thus it's different.

That proves nothing.

No, this proves Shinra has the technologies to make their holographs capable of damage

Summons are magic based, thus it's different.

You can't be serious. FIrst its "if summons weren't real they couldn't hurt you," now its "well some non real things can hurt you because they have the technology for it."

That makes absolutely no sense. A magic based thing is more likely to do the impossible than something tech based. Besides which, the summons themselves aren't what's fake, its their effect on the environment, such as Ifrit giving the illsuion that you're in a fiery chasm or Supernova giving the illsuion that the solar system is being wiped out.

That proves nothing.

It proves you have trouble with logic.

Well i was thinking the same thing to be honest, You're argument in a nutshell appears to be, This proves A, which must prove B too, because their both letters.

It's bewildering how you have come to those conclusions. And amusing that you believe everyone else in wrong. Certainly when i have everyone else tellnig me i'm not correct, i rethink my position. Though you don't seem to, which is.... interesting.

I appreciate it's an old game and it's a potential basis for an arguement to say that they didn't have the option of doing so. However, since very few (Neo Bahamut, Leviathan and Knights of the Round) of the summons in the original game change the battlefield. I must say I don't believe you are correct about summons on the whole. I have only seen Youtube Clips but i don't see anyone 'summoning' the Ifrit, it almost seems to attack of it's own will to me. And that's the suggestion i'm putting forth.

When a summon is called forth to fight by someones side, it doesn't change the area via illusion. While the summon alone has the power to do so, and uses said power when it fights one on one.

Though i repeat myself to remind you, I do not believe that the Supernova attack destroys the planets and then makes the sun expand. Simply because if he could do that it's highly unlikely he'd need the Black Materia.

And for the record, i do not appreciate that final comment, i see it as an insult.

Genesis was the one who summoned Ifrit at Wutai, summons never just apopear out of nowhere. And appealing to the majority isn't an argument. If I went into a meeting of the Flat Earth Society and told them the Earth was round no one would agree with me, but it wouldn't vhange the facts.

First of all The virtual reality training similator in no way have anything to do with summons.

Second of all, the quote never claimed that Bahamut Sin was the only summon capable of causing damage to the real world, Shadow Creepers proves that as well.

Thirdly the quote never claimed that all or even most of summons brought their target into their own unique space, infact we only see a few in the entire compilation, again, illusions were never heard of, proved, or even mentioned in the entire series.

So you're willing to say that all the other summons in FF7 are wrong, because the latest game has one summon that appears to be different?

For someone who claims to stand with logic that looks bad.

Evil, look up the term retcon. The latest addition to a series is canon, anything before it that contradicts it ceases to be canon.

Look up the term exception -.-'

Every other summon from every other Final Fantasy game doesn't shown for you're claim to be true. Go figure.

There's no such thing as an exception to a retcon, once the new version comes out, its the canon version unless explicitly stated other as in the SW Infinities titles.

Ifrit, and all of the Bahamuts don't look like they pull the illusion/own space thing in FF VII, and they clearly do in Crisis Core, the CCCG says many of them do it in FF VII despite us only seeing KotR do it in that game. Its been retconned, there's really no way around it.

Well, there are hundreds of summons that all come into the summoners world, and fight on behalf of them, in real world, with no illusions.

The FF Movie Advent Children supports this.

One summon comes along in a game, that this does not apply for. If it were more, you're argument would carry more weight. However, seeing how it is only one, it is far more logical to assume it is an exception.

And that's the bottom line

I just gotta say...Seph is my ace but it's painfully obvious that Supernova is an illusion. If Seph really wanted to kill everyone, he woulda just did Supernova and there wouldn't be AC movie. If he can actually do it and it actually does what it shows, how the hell did they beat him.

Unless y'all gonna say he never chose to use it, but that seems kinda dumb seeing as how he went through all that BS just to use Meteor to destroy the planet when coulda just did Supernova.

But OMG, Seph still rapes this dude. The guy could deplete Kain's magic and continuously hit'im wit Supernova over and over. Gameplay battles are the worst when it comes to RPG guys.

He wouldnt rape Kain at all, Kain would be completly invulerable with his shield and then do an instant spirit death and Sephiroth falls before he even starts a supernova, the move is so slow to activate

The reason Sephiroth didn't (or rather, couldn't) use his supernova attack on the Planet is because, and as with other Summons, as soon as it's activated, everyone is drawn into a location completely separate from the Planet. It's simply not applicable in damaging the actual FFVII Planet, or anyone that's not drawn into the summon's setting, which is why he relied on meteor. So no, as with other such summons, it's not in any way an illusion. His attack is truly that powerful, it was just useless for Sephiroth in achieving the particular goal he had set out to do. However, in this thread, where he's against one opponent, it most certainly does apply, as the summon would naturally draw Kain into its unique location, where he would then be able to be affected by the destructive power of Sephiroth's attack.

Originally posted by Angeal
The reason Sephiroth didn't (or rather, couldn't) use his supernova attack on the Planet is because, and as with other Summons, as soon as it's activated, everyone is drawn into a location completely separate from the Planet. It's simply not applicable in damaging the actual FFVII Planet, or anyone that's not drawn into the summon's setting, which is why he relied on meteor. So no, as with other such summons, it's not in any way an illusion. His attack is truly that powerful, it was just useless for Sephiroth in achieving the particular goal he had set out to do. However, in this thread, where he's against one opponent, it most certainly does apply, as the summon would naturally draw Kain into its unique location, where he would then be able to be affected by the destructive power of Sephiroth's attack.

Umm first you say all summons are drawn to a completely different location from the planet, then you contradict yourself by saying so he summons meteor (wtf?)

First of all, not all summons draw the party into a completely different location from the planet, in the entire compilation, you only see a total of 3, 1 in FF7, and the fights in CC where the summon bring Zack to their realm to fight them.

Even if Supernova was powerful enough to blow earth, he would STILL need meteor, because meteor is there to create the perfect wound on the planet, Sephiroth never wanted to destroy the planet.

Originally posted by Burning thought
He wouldnt rape Kain at all, Kain would be completly invulerable with his shield and then do an instant spirit death and Sephiroth falls before he even starts a supernova, the move is so slow to activate

Shield doesn't last forever, does instant spirit death work on Bosses?

The strongest gameplay Sephiroth was the one in the flashback when he's in your party, because he was simply invulnerable.

Kain's a tool. He would get curbstomped by a SOLDIER 3rd.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Umm first you say all summons are drawn to a completely different location from the planet, then you contradict yourself by saying so he summons meteor (wtf?)

1. Equip your dictionary.
2. Stay awake at the computer screen.
3. Read through my post carefully.

I never once stated that all summons draw their targets into their personal dimensions; if you think otherwise, quote me for truth.

First of all, not all summons draw the party into a completely different location from the planet, in the entire compilation, you only see a total of 3, 1 in FF7, and the fights in CC where the summon bring Zack to their realm to fight them.

Disregarding the fact that your numbers are totally wrong there, it doesn't matter, as it's clear (hopefully to you as well now) that I know that there are certain summons that simply interact with the real world.

Even if Supernova was powerful enough to blow earth,

There's no "if" about it, and it's capable of destroying an entire solar system.

he would STILL need meteor, because meteor is there to create the perfect wound on the planet, Sephiroth never wanted to destroy the planet.

Well technically we don't know that he couldn't simply have used supernova to create the same effect by simply toning it down and focusing it, but the point remains that his supernova can only affect its own realm and the people it draws into it, so we're not disagreeing here; he required meteor for a specific goal that he wasn't capable of achieving with supernova, not because his supernova lacked the power, but simply because the nature of the attack prevented it from achieving what meteor could.

Originally posted by Terryc250
Shield doesn't last forever, does instant spirit death work on Bosses?

The strongest gameplay Sephiroth was the one in the flashback when he's in your party, because he was simply invulnerable.

No, but to Kain Sephiroth would not be a Boss 🙂 and Shield doesnt last forever, tell kain that when he casts it again before the spell finishes

gameplay Kain would stomp all the soldiers at once.....theyll have to wait their turn while Kain simply destroys each of them one after the other

Here's how Kain's entrance to the world of FF VII would go: He shows up, does some naughty things, ShinRa sends a SOLDIER 3rd out to deal with him, he's impaled on the sword because SOLDIERs are much faster than Kain, and he's dead. Kain would be laughed at in FF VII.