Originally posted by queeqI never said that Christian's do anything to me personally. They use democratic processes to push their opinion. Well, unless you consider Christians trying to condition me into subscribing to their believes a personal attack...which one might do.
I did... I still don't see anything they did to you, personally. Unless you mean the posts by Christians in this thread? 😉
Originally posted by willofthewisp
I have a question for all people who do not believe any religion at all or even the possibility of God.It seems through the media and message boards like this that atheists are much more likely to insult religious people and stereotype them as stupid and ignorant. Of course, the few atheists I have known have never acted that way, so please understand I am not grouping you together.
But my question is: does it bother you in some way when someone says they are of faith? It just seems like some atheists like to "do us a favor" by telling us how stupid we all are. I suppose that's the equivalent of a missionary going out and trying to convert, but it seems more aggressive. What is your take on people of faith? Do any faiths bother you more than others? What are your takes on Wicca and beliefs that don't really acknowledge a God per se? Just curious on what makes you tick.
What do you mean by "God?" The Christian God exclusively? That exclusiveness tends to turn many people off, and often, defensiveness follows.
It's been my experience that sincere theists are less likely than sincere atheists to admit that, ultimately, no one really knows if "God" exists. In my opinion, that is not admirable.
Originally posted by Mindshipwell the reason is theists completely believe in a god. that is a given. its much harder to admit a negative than to accept a positive
I'm not an atheist but I can appreciate your curiosity.What do you mean by "God?" The Christian God exclusively? That exclusiveness tends to turn many people off, and often, defensiveness follows.
It's been my experience that sincere theists are less likely than sincere atheists to admit that, ultimately, no one really knows if "God" exists. In my opinion, that is not admirable.
Originally posted by queeq
What did they ever do to you then?
Originally posted by Bardock42
Lots of things. And yet I am even one of the lucky people born in a mostly secular society.
Originally posted by queeq
Like what?
Originally posted by Bardock42
You didn't read any of the posts that came after that post, eh?
Originally posted by queeq
I did... I still don't see anything they did to you, personally.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I never said that Christian's do anything to me personally. They use democratic processes to push their opinion. Well, unless you consider Christians trying to condition me into subscribing to their believes a personal attack...which one might do.
Confusing conversation.... Sounds like you have not been harassed by Christians. You just don't like what they have to say. That's your right, just as it's their right to stand for their opinions.
And EVERYBODY uses the democratic process to push their opinion. That's what democracy is all about. Every politician tries to get his points across, legalised etc. The one who gets the largest support, gets his way. Why should a Christian suddenly be excluded from that process? Because if he is, it's not very democratic anymore.
Once you start excluding groups from the democratic process, you're on your way to dictatorship.
Originally posted by queeq
Confusing conversation.... Sounds like you have not been harassed by Christians. You just don't like what they have to say. That's your right, just as it's their right to stand for their opinions.And EVERYBODY uses the democratic process to push their opinion. That's what democracy is all about. Every politician tries to get his points across, legalised etc. The one who gets the largest support, gets his way. Why should a Christian suddenly be excluded from that process? Because if he is, it's not very democratic anymore.
Once you start excluding groups from the democratic process, you're on your way to dictatorship.
Again, you disregarded all my posts on the topic. I was forced into Religious education for years. I take it that doesn't count similarly to using the democratic process because "Everyone tries to convince you of their point ... wahh ... wahh", right?
So, using the democratic process is excluded from being harassed. If all nazis got together used the Democratic process to ..I don't know...ban Jews from marrying or something then the Jews would not have been harassed by the nazis? Serious?
Also, that's idiotic. Democracy is a dictatorship. The majority can do what the **** they want. Once you start excluding everyone from the democratic process you're on your way to freedom.
I am sorry, but just because Christians didn't come together to beat me with a bat to stop me from marrying a male I could possibly fall in love with, doesn't mean that Christian's didn't use other processes to force me to adapt their morality by the use of force (police). You have no right to exclude any kind of oppression, really. Also, before you talk bullshit again (which will obviously happen), remember that I know that other groups do similar shit (socialists, nazis, Muslims, Jews, communists, authoritarians), it just doesn't excuse Christian's from doing so.
Thanks for using the usual polite phrasing to continue this debate.
But you just have a problem with the democratic system. Yes, a majority can do whatever it wants, as long as they keep that majority. THat's part of the system you live in. If you don't like it, leave. Luckily for you most Western countries also have Trias Politica, where not everyone can just do whatever they want, not even when you're in power.
In the past people would be in charge by birthright and only a small elite ruled the country and made everyone do whatever they want. Some consider democracy an improvement. It just sounds you don't like any form of government with another opinion that yours.
And harassment is something else than getting sent to religious schools. Blame your parents for that for frocing you to go to schools you didn't liek, not the schools, or the religious people. I've been going to religious schools all my life and I have had no problems at all. And disagreeing with people there just helped me to learn to think for myself.
No insult intended, but you frustrations sound stronger than your arguments.
Originally posted by queeqRegardless of the nonsense you say, Christian's as a group, are strongly organized and similarly conditioned, so that they can use the democratic system to oppress people with their views on solely personal issues. And yes, I dislike the democratic system, but that doesn't mean that I also dislike groups that have in my opinion idiotic morals and on top of that force them on people. So, that's the reason I dislike Religion and some (though not all) religious people, hope that answers the initial question.
Thanks for using the usual polite phrasing to continue this debate.But you just have a problem with the democratic system. Yes, a majority can do whatever it wants, as long as they keep that majority. THat's part of the system you live in. If you don't like it, leave. Luckily for you most Western countries also have Trias Politica, where not everyone can just do whatever they want, not even when you're in power.
In the past people would be in charge by birthright and only a small elite ruled the country and made everyone do whatever they want. Some consider democracy an improvement. It just sounds you don't like any form of government with another opinion that yours.
And harassment is something else than getting sent to religious schools. Blame your parents for that for frocing you to go to schools you didn't liek, not the schools, or the religious people. I've been going to religious schools all my life and I have had no problems at all. And disagreeing with people there just helped me to learn to think for myself.
No insult intended, but you frustrations sound stronger than your arguments.
Not really. I still wonder what they did to you that make syou hate them so much. It doesn't sound very healthy.
The idea that Christians opppress and/or brainwash their members is seriously outdated, by the way. They are not sects. You sound rather biased without any serious foundation.
It seems you want room for your own freedom and prefer to take way the freedom of others to do what they believe. That makes you just as bad. You said you want the freedom to have an abortion if the need for that arises. Christians want the freedom to object to abortion. The group that gets the largest following wins. So I propose you get yourself strongly organised and large following, that you can condition in your own views. That is the freedom you have.
Science H Logic. Are you serious?
Originally posted by queeq
Not really. I still wonder what they did to you that make syou hate them so much. It doesn't sound very healthy.
Yeah, I will consult my psychologist about it. What I don't think is healthy is that you don't feel like admitting to your theistic leanings.
Originally posted by queeq
The idea that Christians opppress and/or brainwash their members is seriously outdated, by the way. They are not sects. You sound rather biased without any serious foundation.
It's not outdated. They might not put them in a room and beat them until they believe, but Christians (and most Religions up to date) use brainwashing techniques and conditioning of children to ensure that they will not run out of followers. Hardly deniable.
Originally posted by queeq
It seems you want room for your own freedom and prefer to take way the freedom of others to do what they believe. That makes you just as bad. You said you want the freedom to have an abortion if the need for that arises. Christians want the freedom to object to abortion. The group that gets the largest following wins. So I propose you get yourself strongly organised and large following, that you can condition in your own views. That is the freedom you have.
I want room for my freedom. Also for theirs, as long as it does not include the freedom to oppress people. I want every Religious person to have the right to practice their Religion and believe what they want, I do not want anyone to have the right to take away freedoms that do not affect you in any manner. It's not just Christians, as I said, it's anyone that wants to use legislation to stop doing something that does not harm any person except for possibly the person doing it. It's a pretty easy philosophical concept really.
So I propose you go **** yourself. hmm
You always enlighten us with your nice phrasing. Shows you certainly know how to have a civilised debate. Can't wait to see you start your own political faction.
Originally posted by Bardock42
It's not outdated. They might not put them in a room and beat them until they believe, but Christians (and most Religions up to date) use brainwashing techniques and conditioning of children to ensure that they will not run out of followers. Hardly deniable. hmm
Apart from certain sects, it's veryu deniable. Give us some proof then? How does, for instance, the Catholic Church brainwash their followers? Or the Presbyterians? Or the Southern Baptists? Or the Church of England? Of the Protestant Chruch in Europe? I'd like to see some evidence.
Originally posted by queeq
You always enlighten us with your nice phrasing. Shows you certainly know how to have a civilised debate. Can't wait to see you start your own political faction.Apart from certain sects, it's veryu deniable. Give us some proof then? How does, for instance, the Catholic Church brainwash their followers? Or the Presbyterians? Or the Southern Baptists? Or the Church of England? Of the Protestant Chruch in Europe? I'd like to see some evidence.
I never said that the leaders brainwash their followers. Though their is conditioning and brainwashing going on by parents of the children, which is not necessarily discouraged by the church.
Originally posted by queeq
That makes you just as bad. You said you want the freedom to have an abortion if the need for that arises. Christians want the freedom to object to abortion. The group that gets the largest following wins. So I propose you get yourself strongly organised and large following, that you can condition in your own views. That is the freedom you have.
if democracy includes the right of one minority to strip a right from another via personal beliefs and popular opinion, then what if a population voted for practicing religion to be illegal? would that be an example of democracy/freedom in action?
Originally posted by willofthewisp
It seems through the media and message boards like this that atheists are much more likely to insult religious people and stereotype them as stupid and ignorant. Of course, the few atheists I have known have never acted that way, so please understand I am not grouping you together.
Now where would you get an idea like that? hmmm.......
Originally posted by Bardock42
Again, you disregarded all my posts on the topic.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Also, that's idiotic. Democracy is a dictatorship. The majority can do what the **** they want. Once you start excluding everyone from the democratic process you're on your way to freedom.
Originally posted by Bardock42
I Also, before you talk bullshit again (which will obviously happen), remember that I know that other groups do similar shit (socialists, nazis, Muslims, Jews, communists, authoritarians), it just doesn't excuse Christian's from doing so.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Regardless of the nonsense you say
Originally posted by Bardock42
So I propose you go **** yourself. hmm
I was gonna add posts like this from others here, but I thought showing how many of these "respectful" comments came from one user was a much more powerful argument. ✅
Good post.
Originally posted by Schecter
if democracy includes the right of one minority to strip a right from another via personal beliefs and popular opinion, then what if a population voted for practicing religion to be illegal? would that be an example of democracy/freedom in action?
No one is stripping rights from anyone. As stated before, there is a Trias Politica in most Western Democracies and there is such a thing as the constitution. In most Western democracies the Freedom of Religion is a constitutional right. Removing unborn embryos from a womb is not a right included in the constitution. It is in fact no right at all until it's legalised. That's basically what's going on: a group of people trying to attain a new right.
And yes, if a 2/3 majority would decide to remove the constitutional right of Freedom of Religion and would even forbid it, then that would be democratic indeed. A People's Democracy like the Soviet Union did have religion forbidden, so it's not such a big fantasy thing to have such a situation. Freedom is take too much for granted these days, be happy with the freedom you have. And feel free to attain more, just don't go screaming you have the RIGHT to have all the freedom you think you deserve.
Originally posted by willRules
Now where would you get an idea like that? hmmm.......I was gonna add posts like this from others here, but I thought showing how many of these "respectful" comments came from one user was a much more powerful argument. ✅
Would be a good point if I would only insult religious people or if queeq would be openly Christian. Since neither of those applies your point is just that I am rude and use strong and offensive language in my posts...which, I doubt comes as a surprise to anyone.
Also, how is stating that someone disregarded what I said disrespectful?
Originally posted by queeqYou are correct about it just being a right when it becomes legalized or at least not forbidden. But the freedom I have already, I can go around killing people, I can smoke marijuana and I can go abort children of pregnant women. The freedom is not what I am "screaming" about, it's the right to use the freedoms that do not harm any other person. Which is obviously a philosophical belief and as such debatable. But I feel like I have very much the freedom to be annoyed at people that are opposed to that believe I hold. Kinda like Religios people can be annoyed at people trying to ban their believes. Or force them to be atheist or something.
Good post.No one is stripping rights from anyone. As stated before, there is a Trias Politica in most Western Democracies and there is such a thing as the constitution. In most Western democracies the Freedom of Religion is a constitutional right. Removing unborn embryos from a womb is not a right included in the constitution. It is in fact no right at all until it's legalised. That's basically what's going on: a group of people trying to attain a new right.
And yes, if a 2/3 majority would decide to remove the constitutional right of Freedom of Religion and would even forbid it, then that would be democratic indeed. A People's Democracy like the Soviet Union did have religion forbidden, so it's not such a big fantasy thing to have such a situation. Freedom is take too much for granted these days, be happy with the freedom you have. And feel free to attain more, just don't go screaming you have the RIGHT to have all the freedom you think you deserve.
I brought this up in the "blank vote" discussion. The problem with democracy is that it should work and be fair in theory, but it assumes that the citizens of a democracy are unbiased and informed which of course is not the case.
When I was around 12 years old, I began to question different things in the Bible that I did not understand. Instead of giving me a solid explanation, fellow church goers said that "I was reading it wrong" although they could not give me an explanation from the Bible that refuted my opinion. Eventually, I stopped going to church and was bombarded over and over again with all these folks bugging me about coming back, over and over again I refused to go. So I would see church members in public and they would shun me as if I were the devil incarnate. It was like being in high school and people telling me I should be like "blah blah blah."
My point is this, the majority have never been open to respecting those of another creed. Each "ism" (race, gender, religion, etc.) works in this way. For example, concerning race one should know things about their heritage and where they came from and there is no shame in showing pride in that culture. The problem comes when you begin to let that pride turn into something that allows irrational reasoning to occur.
Some black nationalists believe that white people are an inferior people because they are not supposed to be the "original man" and are therefore caveman who lived in dank regions in Europe.
The French Revolution cause a lot of change and brought about democracy which people tend to celebrate in the Western world. They were all about the "common man", unless you were a woman. J.J. Rousseau, French philosopher who is said to be a influence on how the U.S.'s founding fathers understood the "social contract theory", said this "Rousseau feared that ’the women make us into women.’ In response to criticism of his work, Rousseau made his position completely clear: ’I am not of your opinion when you say that if we are corrupted it is not the fault of women, it is our own; my whole book is undertaken to show how it is their fault,’” (Hunt 98; quoted from a report I did on Wednesday, I can give full citation if necessary). Thinkers of the French Revolution believed that if you let your woman speak in public that you would lose your balls and shaft, and it would all turn into a vagina... So it is no surprise women do not come up in the Constitution , or anything concerning race.
People take their beliefs as fact which raises issues all around. That is why people of religious paradigms tend to be so "intense" about things because THEY KNOW THEY ARE RIGHT, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE; hence, my sig having a quote from William Blake.