This is just going to go the same way again.
Arguing over stipulations because certain people just don't have a clue what they're talking about, especially regarding the Matrix. For the past pages it has been Rogue Jedi essentially just saying "I disagree." to people factually explaining what the Matrix is, and how it works.
It will go the same way again, but I won't say I told you so.
-AC
No, it's been a bunch of people giving opinion- not fact- on how much they think Neo can do, which is highly contestable and debatable, and using that to shut down absolutely anything the opposition says. The resulting bashing is the fault of BOTH sides and not any individual.
If people are unable to debate that in a reasonable way then the problem is with those people. Impediment is trying to show a little faith here, but I guess he could be let down.
That includes yourself, AC.
Of course it includes me, I'm a part of the thread.
If Rogue Jedi had his way, he would do (And has tried to do) the exact same thing. "He goes into the Matrix and just does this, dodges this, does this first.". It's a ridiculous thread, and I'm not denying I have been part of it, so you're not really revealing anything. You'll get no holier-than-thou attitude out of me here, I won't deny my involvement, but that's what this thread is and will continue to be.
The group of people who do not understand the Matrix is not what I am a part of. The group of people pushing a ridiculous fight with ridiculous stipulations is not what I am a part of. This isn't even stemming from me being a fan of either, I think Neo is a really ridiculous character to put in these situations, as is the version of Luke that is being used, and this thread proves it. Regardless of who is right or who is wrong, Neo is not just a guy with powers, he comes with a whole load of either factual or hypothetical storyline and circumstantial weight that makes for a very stupid Vs fantasy fight.
You might as well say NJO Luke Vs Superman. At least we could all agree that it's just two men fighting in a real world. It's not a matter of being unable to debate something reasonable in a reasonable way, it's the fact that everything involving this match is unreasonable, for both combatants. Then, between that and certain people having lots of knowledge of one and not the other, it's just a mess.
The result is a gigantic circle of hyperbole and disagreement. Most of this thread is people arguing about stipulations, and if that's the case, surely it's better to agree that it's a stupid fight and move on to perhaps a better thread. That has always been my point.
I've never launched any serious bashing against anybody here, and to be fair, I can't say I've seen it from anybody else to me either (Except from someone spamming, but that's expected), it's just a lack of understanding that a lot of people find frustrating.
I have admitted I am not the most knowledgable of Star Wars fans, so by that token I took it upon myself to research and learn what was being discussed. Others who do not know how the Matrix works have just convinced themselves they do. I have nothing against Impediment or the way he runs this forum, but I think it's obvious that the thread just doesn't work.
I doubt his job is made any easier when, stemming from this thread, so-called global mods have run off and made threads for the sole intent to spam and bait, which has been overlooked. I'm not saying you're wrong, really, I agree with you if anything. I just think you've interpreted my argument as aimed solely at people disagreeing with me, when it's not. I've seen Rogue Jedi in other Vs threads and he's not doing anything wrong, this is just a shitty thread.
-AC
I'm not defending the spin-off thread. I also absolutely agree that trying to make a vs. fight between a Matrix character and a non-Matrix character is an exercise in futility, andfor that matetr the super-powered Luke of the EU is a travesty of fiction.
But the fact of the matter is that super-powered Luke is a fact of the EU, and the idea that Neo is absolute God and Master of the Matrix and can do absolutely anything in it he likes... is not a fact of the Matrix films (which show nothing of the sort), it is a hypothesis.
RJ has been extremely attacked for, basically, stating this, and it does seem you have contributed to that. It's not on, and it is part of the reason the thread was closed. The fact that it hasn;t actually become outright flaming is why it's only a matter of the thread being closed, and not posters being warned.
Opinions are being disagreed with. These diagreements are reasonable. The ridiculous arguments sprining out of these disgreements are not going to be tolerated. The whole point and problem with a vs, thread like this is that there is no logical answer at all, so no-one can really be caned for holding... any opinion on it.
It's like you said, it's an exercise in futility, though.
If there's no reason to believe Neo can do all that stuff in the Matrix, as it's hypothesis, then there's even less reason to assume it's ok for the argument to be presented that Luke walks into the Matrix and can do anything he wants, overriding Neo. If anything, that is a worse argument.
What people seem to find frustrating it the fact that this isn't a "What If?" fantasy battle, it's Rogue Jedi sitting there saying "Neo couldn't do this, cos Luke would definitely counter it like this, then do this, which Neo wouldn't counter.". You can say that about anything. You could sit there saying "England could beat Brazil with two men. All they'd have to do is score more, then not let the others score by doing this.".
Regardless of whether RJ is wrong or not, he clearly doesn't understand the Matrix enough to comment on it with any credibility, and my whole point was trying to make him understand both that and the fact that it's a ridiuclous thread.
You're right though, essentially there's no "right" answer unless the fight has happened for real. There's not much more anybody can say.
-AC
AC,
If you were grouping myself into the category of one not understanding how the Matrix works, I obviously disagree.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He couldn't, because only Neo controls the Matrix, and by definition, the "force" would be something created to exist inside of it, since it is a force, not reality itself.
Since Neo is just a mathematical probability DESIGNED into the code of the matrix (Remember the Architect and the Oracle corroborated the design of the Matrix and incorporated "The One" "probability"?), why wouldn't Luke (who has a superior mind and abilities that should let him almost effortlessly use the Matrix just as any other "The One" has.) fall into that minute probability?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Neo manipulates the Matrix because it is a program, not because it's a reality and open to anybody with reality warping skills. It's his to control and his alone, or someone else with the same access, Luke is not one of those. He's just a man, not a carrier of the program.
He is not "carrying" a program*. It is simply the existence or inevitability of the existence of the probability of finding a specific type of mind-matrix chemistry in a human. Note that potential existence of "The One" can actually be greater than one. More than one person at a time can have the potential to unlock "The One"'s abilities.
Also, quoting Morpheus' explanation of "The One" is not a very good source. Morpheus is portrayed as an almost borderline insane and obsessive compulsive pursuer of "The One". He had elevated and false perceptions of what "The One" could do.
Neo could NOT manipulate the matrix as he saw fit. Neo, in the movies, is NOT portrayed as an idiot...he is actually portrayed as a very intelligent person. So why would he go through all the troubles that he did IF he could manipulate the matrix as he saw fit?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So Neo would control the force also, he could remove it from existence if he wanted. If this fight were in the Matrix that is.-AC
Neo can not replicate the abilities of the Force in the Matrix. We see that in the movies. Since I understood the Matrix, I said waaaaaay back at the beginning of this thread that they would to fight in an alternate Matrix that granted them all their powers and abilities.
Observe what I said previously:
Originally posted by dadudemon
If Neo was to have all of his powers in a fight with Luke, it really wouldn't work because Neo's powers are dependent upon being "plugged into the matrix". So an alternate universe would have to be created that gave Neo all his powers and allowed Luke to retain his powers. That doesn't make much sense because Neo's powers are incumbent upon being in an interface that allows him to "see" the code and be one with the "Matrix OS". (I just made that phrase up...I know, bare with me.)If Neo was the God of the Matrix as some tout him to be, a fight with ANY agent would end faster than it takes Bardock to eat a bowl of cereal. Neo isn't "wtf pwning" in the Matrix like that because his limitations are his mind. He can only manipulate the matrix so much. By manipulate, it means he is reprogramming the matrix on the fly with his mind.
I made that point to come to another one.
Neo is THE best "The One" to be born among humans. We know this because the Architect said that there were 5 others before him AND his realization in the word games came "faster" to Neo than the others.
Recall "that was faster than the others" -Architect.
Neo has shown force-like abilities like stopping bullets. Luke has stopped blaster fire from a friggin' AT-AT with his force shield...comparable feats...but Luke takes the cake on this "force" comparison feat.
Fact is...Neo can NOT control the Matrix as well as you are giving him credit for. His uber "control the Matrix" feats are very linear and one dimensional because it takes extreme focus of his human mind to do so. As I've already pointed out, if the Wachowski brothers wanted Neo to be as awesome as you and others have pointed out, he wouldn't have fought all of the Frenchman's henchmen...he would have just shot the bullets right back at them with his "control the matrix" powers, right?
If Neo had the uber control over the Matrix as everyone says, why did he not have ANY control over the trainman's Matrix? Neo was still connected to the Matrix...but was stuck in a subnet that was basically firewalled off main portion of the Matrix. I'll connect the dots for all of you..."It is simply the existence or inevitability of the existence of the probability of finding a specific type of mind-matrix chemistry in a human." Like I pointed out, more than one "The One" is a potential, even inside the Matrix. We saw in the first film several potential 'The One"'s..they possessed the ability to become "The One". Part of the programming in the Matrix that allowed for the ascension of a potential into "The One" was a very strong emotional attachment. As noted by the Architect, Neo was different because his was a very strong emotional attachment, not generally to humanity like the previous "The One"'s, but very specific: Trinity. This attachment allowed him to be both better and worse than the previous "The One"'s. (Depending on which scenario and perspective you'd like to approach from.)
*Yes, I realize that the mind acts as code and is translated into to code...but it is not a function of Neo being a program, it is a function of the Matrix accounting for someone like Neo existing. Technically, Neo can do what he does because the Matrix was programmed to do so.
Originally posted by dadudemon
AC,If you were grouping myself into the category of one not understanding how the Matrix works, I obviously disagree.
I didn't even know you had posted here.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Since Neo is just a mathematical probability DESIGNED into the code of the matrix (Remember the Architect and the Oracle corroborated the design of the Matrix and incorporated "The One" "probability"?), why wouldn't Luke (who has a superior mind and abilities that should let him almost effortlessly use the Matrix just as any other "The One" has.) fall into that minute probability?
First off, give me a reason as to why Luke, for no reason, could control the whole Matrix? He's just a man, he's not in possession of any power there. He'd just be a man in the Matrix using a program in the Matrix because that'd be where he got the powers from.
Luke wouldn't fall into that probability because he's not what Neo is. The stipulation is that he's a man from the real world who just goes in there.
Originally posted by dadudemon
He is not "carrying" a program*. It is simply the existence or inevitability of the existence of the probability of finding a specific type of mind-matrix chemistry in a human. Note that potential existence of "The One" can actually be greater than one. More than one person at a time can have the potential to unlock "The One"'s abilities.
But Luke isn't one, since we've established he'd be a real world man, so he'd have absolutely no connection to, nor ability to control or use, the Matrix.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Also, quoting Morpheus' explanation of "The One" is not a very good source. Morpheus is portrayed as an almost borderline insane and obsessive compulsive pursuer of "The One". He had elevated and false perceptions of what "The One" could do.
How? He said the one would end the war, he did. The prophecy was partly true.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Neo could NOT manipulate the matrix as he saw fit. Neo, in the movies, is NOT portrayed as an idiot...he is actually portrayed as a very intelligent person. So why would he go through all the troubles that he did IF he could manipulate the matrix as he saw fit?
Because otherwise we'd have a minute long movie, it's a bit hard to make a trilogy out of that.
Why would there even be a movie if he just went "Oh, gone."?
Originally posted by dadudemon
Neo can not replicate the abilities of the Force in the Matrix. We see that in the movies. Since I understood the Matrix, I said waaaaaay back at the beginning of this thread that they would to fight in an alternate Matrix that granted them all their powers and abilities.
A) He wouldn't need to use the force, I've explained why.
B) So you acknowledge that Rogue Jedi's proposals are as ridiculous as I've been saying? Nobody just strolls into the Matrix and whoops Neo, it's not that simple.
What you aren't grasping is that in ANY Matrix, Neo has an advantage. His powers and abilities directly relate, and are connected to, the Matrix. You can't ignore all the rules. It's as Ush said, an exercise in futility. You can't make up your own Matrix, that's not how Neo works.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Observe what I said previously:Neo has shown force-like abilities like stopping bullets. Luke has stopped blaster fire from a friggin' AT-AT with his force shield...comparable feats...but Luke takes the cake on this "force" comparison feat.
Stopping bullets is a lot more of a feat than stopping energy, in my opinion.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Fact is...Neo can NOT control the Matrix as well as you are giving him credit for. His uber "control the Matrix" feats are very linear and one dimensional because it takes extreme focus of his human mind to do so. As I've already pointed out, if the Wachowski brothers wanted Neo to be as awesome as you and others have pointed out, he wouldn't have fought all of the Frenchman's henchmen...he would have just shot the bullets right back at them with his "control the matrix" powers, right?
Yes, and how much awesome wirework, flashy choreography and such would that have required? Just because he didn't do it, doesn't mean he isn't capable of it. His powers suggest he is, the fact that it would make the movies significantly less interesting shows otherwise.
Originally posted by dadudemon
If Neo had the uber control over the Matrix as everyone says, why did he not have ANY control over the trainman's Matrix? Neo was still connected to the Matrix...but was stuck in a subnet that was basically firewalled off main portion of the Matrix. I'll connect the dots for all of you..."It is simply the existence or inevitability of the existence of the probability of finding a specific type of mind-matrix chemistry in a human." Like I pointed out, more than one "The One" is a potential, even inside the Matrix. We saw in the first film several potential 'The One"'s..they possessed the ability to become "The One". Part of the programming in the Matrix that allowed for the ascension of a potential into "The One" was a very strong emotional attachment. As noted by the Architect, Neo was different because his was a very strong emotional attachment, not generally to humanity like the previous "The One"'s, but very specific: Trinity. This attachment allowed him to be both better and worse than the previous "The One"'s. (Depending on which scenario and perspective you'd like to approach from.)
The Trainman's world was not part of the Matrix, it was a void between the Matrix and the source, so I'm not sure what you're on about there. It's not "another" Matrix, or someone else's Matrix. It's a place, just a place. He was not in his dominion, at all.
Furthermore, the rest of that is irrelevant, I am aware of who the one is, and why, it doesn't suggest Luke would win this fight. Luke couldn't be "the one" because he is not born in the Matrix, he's real world. Additionally, it's called the "one" for a reason. One "one" per version of the Matrix. Sati didn't become the "one" until Neo was gone.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriI didn't even know you had posted here.
Awesome.
An apology is in order then.
I apologize for the assumptively patronizing tone in my previous post.
Now if only all other discussions could be handled like this(people admitting fault)...debates wouldn't end up with threads getting closed.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
First off, give me a reason as to why Luke, for no reason, could control the whole Matrix? He's just a man, he's not in possession of any power there. He'd just be a man in the Matrix using a program in the Matrix because that'd be where he got the powers from.
I have given reason. Since we are talking about Luke Skywalker, we must take into consideration that Luke has shown very brief and instant mastery of very difficult skills. An example was Luke employing his abilities to overload some powerful droids with a technique that took a previous Jedi Master a decade to perfect. Luke did this in a mere instant. There are numerous instances of Luke "learning" things in moments what took others years. He has an extremely rare mind. Being very much an enlightened being (just as "The One's" are/were) and in tune with the force, it should be child's play for him to become "Matrix Enlightened". "The One" is associated with the ability to greatly think outside the box. He (or she) is the product(or rather, probability) of a few million humans. Why would it be beyond the grasp of Luke's mind to think outside the box especially considering Luke can see significantly into the future and use Battle Meditation and techniques alike?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Luke wouldn't fall into that probability because he's not what Neo is. The stipulation is that he's a man from the real world who just goes in there.But Luke isn't one, since we've established he'd be a real world man, so he'd have absolutely no connection to, nor ability to control or use, the Matrix.
That is illogical. Luke and Neo are both fictional characters. In this fictional comparison, they are BOTH from the real world. The premise IS that they are fighting each other in the Matrix. If it doesn't make sense in your mind or is considered a futile vs. discussion, simply use your imagination. Sometimes, you have to employ illogic in order to explore a different form of logic.
Just pretend Luke has been fit with a cerebral interface for the Matrix.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
How? He said the one would end the war, he did. The prophecy was partly true.
Morpheus had limited knowledge on what "The One" actually was. As soon as Neo became "The One", everything should have become hunky dory for the people of Zion, but it didn't. Why would Morpheus later use Neo as a tool instead of the God people suppose he is?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Because otherwise we'd have a minute long movie, it's a bit hard to make a trilogy out of that.Why would there even be a movie if he just went "Oh, gone."?
It looks like we agree on this point.
The Wachowski bros. wrote Neo with limited abilities for a reason. You and others cannot call Neo "the god of the matrix" and give him the ability to do as he sees fit because he simply did not exhibit that in the movies. Saying what he should be able to do in the Matrix when it directly contradicts the movies.
Just that everyone is aware, Neo is NOT literally a/the God of the Matrix and he cannot manipulate it as he sees fit. To say otherwise is what Robtard calls fanboyism.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A) He wouldn't need to use the force, I've explained why.
This contradicts the premise of the thread.
Also, Neo has NEVER shown the ability to erase the physics of the Matrix, only manipulate them limitedly. (I use the word "limitedly" not to gimp Neo, but because Neo is limited by his human mind...as I've pointed out.)
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
B) Nobody just strolls into the Matrix and whoops Neo, it's not that simple.
If both characters have all their abilities as this thread's premise states, yes, Luke can easily kill Neo without even moving. It's that simple.
However, if i wanted to, I could argue on the Neo side and easily claim Neo winning in the Matrix. However, I see NJO Luke winning this without putting forth much effort.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What you aren't grasping is that in ANY Matrix, Neo has an advantage.
Relative to Luke...no. Far from it.
I hate to take this direction...but if you believe what you do above, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of where Neo gets his powers from. His powers work in The Matrix BECAUSE it is programmed to do so. Neo has his abilities in the Matrix because it was programmed to give him those abilities. Put Neo in any other Matrix not programmed as such and Neo is just the same as any other.
However, when considering Luke, Luke will always have the abilities that he gets solely from his mind no matter the Matrix he is in. In actuality, you statement is only true for Luke and not Neo.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
His powers and abilities directly relate, and are connected to, the Matrix.
And only that specific Matrix.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You can't ignore all the rules.
I would appear the other way around. Each character has their full abilities, as I've stated already.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's as Ush said, an exercise in futility.
It's only an exercise in futility for those who can't "free [their] mind". 😆
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You can't make up your own Matrix, that's not how Neo works.
That doesn't make sense if you interpreted my suggestion correctly. IF the "battle matrix" I have proposed allows both characters to fight at their full powers, it is absolutely how Neo could fight Luke.
I could get all fanboyish and say shit like, "Luke can just use force feedback and shatterpoint together to pinpoint and fry Neo's mind without having to do anything! ZOMG! I WIN!"...but that's lame.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Stopping bullets is a lot more of a feat than stopping energy, in my opinion.
I agree...to a certain point. Stopping blaster bolts? Yes. Stopping blaster fire from an AT-AT? Sorry, man, there is a geometric difference there. I forgot that the AT-AT of that time was equipped with turbolasers and not laser-cannons. Turbolasers are some bad ass motherf**kers.
"A single blast from a turbolaser could completely incinerate a fully shielded starfighter..."
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Turbolaser
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Just because he didn't do it, doesn't mean he isn't capable of it. His powers suggest he is, the fact that it would make the movies significantly less interesting shows otherwise.
Wrong. He didn't do it because he can't do it. We've established this already. Saying that he doesn't have those powers because it would ruin the ability to have a movie and then saying he has those powers but doesn't use them so that we have a movie are similar, but not the same. The Wachoswki Bros. wrote Neo with limitations. One of the major limitations is Neo's mind. I've given examples of those already. Neo is limited, on purpose, by the Bros. BECAUSE Neo is supposed to still be human on the other end.
If neo was so ridiculously strong as you and others believe, everyone of his strikes should have caused significant damage because they carried an absurd amount of force, right?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The Trainman's world was not part of the Matrix, it was a void between the Matrix and the source, so I'm not sure what you're on about there. It's not "another" Matrix, or someone else's Matrix. It's a place, just a place. He was not in his dominion, at all.
That's only slightly true.
Mobil Avenue is linked to the Source...but is not controlled by the Source. Neo's "mind" got trapped in Mobil Avenue. Mobil Avenue is a very small Matrix program created by the Trainman.
I described Mobil Avenue as "firewalled" from the Matrix...or the Source because it IS connected it but is not controllable by the Source.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Furthermore, the rest of that is irrelevant, I am aware of who the one is, and why, it doesn't suggest Luke would win this fight. Luke couldn't be "the one" because he is not born in the Matrix, he's real world.
It was never established that "The One" had to be born in the Matrix.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Additionally, it's called the "one" for a reason.
You and I both know that "The One" has nothing to do with quantifying how many enlightened saviors there can be in the Matrix. You are taking the title of the savior out of context. "The One" is not a new title brought about by the Matrix movies.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
One "one" per version of the Matrix. Sati didn't become the "one" until Neo was gone.-AC
Sati never became "The One". I assume you are referring to The Matrix Online.
Very disheartening that you would contest the EU while introducing elements of the Matrix EU. In fairness, you were recently enlightened to the EU's presence in this debate for the Star Wars side, so why not incorporate the EU from The Matrix, right? Fair's fair.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I have given reason. Since we are talking about Luke Skywalker, we must take into consideration that Luke has shown very brief and instant mastery of very difficult skills. An example was Luke employing his abilities to overload some powerful droids with a technique that took a previous Jedi Master a decade to perfect. Luke did this in a mere instant. There are numerous instances of Luke "learning" things in moments what took others years. He has an extremely rare mind. Being very much an enlightened being (just as "The One's" are/were) and in tune with the force, it should be child's play for him to become "Matrix Enlightened".
See, this is where it all goes wrong. You give a reasonably "fair" (As fair as non-canon vs canon can be) account of Luke's non-canon skills, then you make the MASSSIVE leap in saying "It should be child's play for him to become Matrix enlightened.". Now what do you base that on?
Being a fast learner, to put it bluntly, does not grant you the ability Neo has. He's the one for a reason, Luke was not born in the Matrix. It's impossible. Even if he could gather a degree of power in the Matrix, it's never gonna surpass Neo.
Originally posted by dadudemon
"The One" is associated with the ability to greatly think outside the box. He (or she) is the product(or rather, probability) of a few million humans. Why would it be beyond the grasp of Luke's mind to think outside the box especially considering Luke can see significantly into the future and use Battle Meditation and techniques alike?
The fact that he is a real world human who is essentially visiting the Matrix, he doesn't actually have any reason, power or right to manipulate it. Where has this come from? "He's mastered the force well in the E.U. so therefore he'd definitely manipulate the Matrix.". It's ridiculous.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That is illogical. Luke and Neo are both fictional characters. In this fictional comparison, they are BOTH from the real world. The premise IS that they are fighting each other in the Matrix. If it doesn't make sense in your mind or is considered a futile vs. discussion, simply use your imagination. Sometimes, you have to employ illogic in order to explore a different form of logic.
No, that's just bs. I'm not going to ignore the rules of the Matrix and Neo's power/connection to it. That's the problem with Vs fights, some are just stupid and do not deserve time of thought. Instead of recognising this, people ignore shit that matters in favour of a "discussion". Thus, you have a thread like this.
Neo isn't born in the real world, Luke is. If Luke isn't, then he's only as powerful as a Trinity or a Morpheus, and therefore he's not gonna be able to fight Neo.
It's a stupid fight, I'm not gonna ignore that so we can pretend it works.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Just pretend Luke has been fit with a cerebral interface for the Matrix.
No, because he hasn't, and there's absolutely no reason to believe he has, apart from trying to make this a lasting thread.
So, no.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Morpheus had limited knowledge on what "The One" actually was. As soon as Neo became "The One", everything should have become hunky dory for the people of Zion, but it didn't. Why would Morpheus later use Neo as a tool instead of the God people suppose he is?
Because he was not fully knowledgeable on what he was told by the Oracle. Technically true, he just interpreted it incorrectly.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It looks like we agree on this point.The Wachowski bros. wrote Neo with limited abilities for a reason. You and others cannot call Neo "the god of the matrix" and give him the ability to do as he sees fit because he simply did not exhibit that in the movies. Saying what he should be able to do in the Matrix when it directly contradicts the movies.
It doesn't contradict the movies, the movies just wouldn't have lasted five minutes if he'd done that. It's not my fault the Wachowskis have implied and shown that the rules give him such amazing powers, and then realised he can't show them. If we go by what he is, WHERE he is, then what I am saying his capacity is, isn't outlandish.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Just that everyone is aware, Neo is NOT literally a/the God of the Matrix and he cannot manipulate it as he sees fit. To say otherwise is what Robtard calls fanboyism.
It's implied that he can, his powers and purpose suggest he can do that. He doesn't because otherwise it'd be a shit movie.
Originally posted by dadudemon
This contradicts the premise of the thread.Also, Neo has NEVER shown the ability to erase the physics of the Matrix, only manipulate them limitedly. (I use the word "limitedly" not to gimp Neo, but because Neo is limited by his human mind...as I've pointed out.)
Fact remains, he has shown ability to manipulate the programmed reality of the Matrix, this includes reading the code and programming of his opponents so that he is able to beat them. He does this by fighting because it's a movie.
You can't say "Pretend this could happen." and then rule out a very possible and PROBABLE hypothesis of Neo's powers.
Originally posted by dadudemon
If both characters have all their abilities as this thread's premise states, yes, Luke can easily kill Neo without even moving. It's that simple.
But the thread's premise is utterly stupid. "Luke walks into the Matrix with all his E.U. powers and fights Neo.". It's impossible.
Originally posted by dadudemon
However, if i wanted to, I could argue on the Neo side and easily claim Neo winning in the Matrix. However, I see NJO Luke winning this without putting forth much effort.
I don't, so we disagree.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Relative to Luke...no. Far from it.I hate to take this direction...but if you believe what you do above, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of where Neo gets his powers from. His powers work in The Matrix BECAUSE it is programmed to do so. Neo has his abilities in the Matrix because it was programmed to give him those abilities. Put Neo in any other Matrix not programmed as such and Neo is just the same as any other.
However, when considering Luke, Luke will always have the abilities that he gets solely from his mind no matter the Matrix he is in. In actuality, you statement is only true for Luke and not Neo.
Who is putting Neo in a random Matrix where he hasn't got the power, though? That's gimping him, that's what you are doing, that's why this fight is ridiculous. "Let's pretend Luke has cerebral interface and they're in a new Matrix.", no, cos that's retarded, sorry.
Originally posted by dadudemon
And only that specific Matrix.
The one you are making up, which as far as I'm concerned, doesn't exist. There's the one Matrix.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I would appear the other way around. Each character has their full abilities, as I've stated already.
Which is stupid and impossible for many power, storyline and continuity reasons.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It's only an exercise in futility for those who can't "free [their] mind". 😆
A.K.A. be retarded enough to pretend shit that isn't actually possible or logical for the sake of a discussion which has turned into shit.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That doesn't make sense if you interpreted my suggestion correctly. IF the "battle matrix" I have proposed allows both characters to fight at their full powers, it is absolutely how Neo could fight Luke.
This is based upon me not interpreting your suggestion as ridiculous and pointless, which I do. Sorry to inform you.
If your entire argument hinges upon a new Matrix, you're gimping Neo, so I will not adhere to it.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I could get all fanboyish and say shit like, "Luke can just use force feedback and shatterpoint together to pinpoint and fry Neo's mind without having to do anything! ZOMG! I WIN!"...but that's lame.
So is this thread and gimping Neo or gimping Luke, which is all that is ever going to happen, unless we "suspend" reality to the point where we become retards and ignore everything for the sake of this thread existing, rather than being sensible and ending the thread.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I agree...to a certain point. Stopping blaster bolts? Yes. Stopping blaster fire from an AT-AT? Sorry, man, there is a geometric difference there. I forgot that the AT-AT of that time was equipped with turbolasers and not laser-cannons. Turbolasers are some bad ass motherf**kers.
I still find that hard to take seriously since it's non-canon Vs canon and, as Ush said, a travesty of fiction.
-AC
Originally posted by dadudemon
A single blast from a turbolaser could completely incinerate a fully shielded starfighter..."
Yes, as above.
Secondly, I laugh at Star Wars Wiki.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Wrong. He didn't do it because he can't do it. We've established this already. Saying that he doesn't have those powers because it would ruin the ability to have a movie and then saying he has those powers but doesn't use them so that we have a movie are similar, but not the same. The Wachoswki Bros. wrote Neo with limitations. One of the major limitations is Neo's mind. I've given examples of those already. Neo is limited, on purpose, by the Bros. BECAUSE Neo is supposed to still be human on the other end.If neo was so ridiculously strong as you and others believe, everyone of his strikes should have caused significant damage because they carried an absurd amount of force, right?
He didn't do it because he didn't do it. Everything about the nature of his powers suggests he can.
If he went around killing people easily, it would be ridiculous. It's the same in any movie. Spider-Man could beat Dr. Octopus with relative ease, had it done it in the movie, it wouldn't have been as interesting would it.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That's only slightly true.Mobil Avenue is linked to the Source...but is not controlled by the Source. Neo's "mind" got trapped in Mobil Avenue. Mobil Avenue is a very small Matrix program created by the Trainman.
It's not A Matrix, it's a program outside the Matrix that Neo is not part of.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I described Mobil Avenue as "firewalled" from the Matrix...or the Source because it IS connected it but is not controllable by the Source.
It doesn't matter, because it's still separate from the Matrix and that's why Neo didn't have power there.
This is another reason the thread is shit. It just goes off in too many directions.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It was never established that "The One" had to be born in the Matrix.
If they weren't they couldn't have entered the Matrix to do what Neo did.
Originally posted by dadudemon
You and I both know that "The One" has nothing to do with quantifying how many enlightened saviors there can be in the Matrix. You are taking the title of the savior out of context. "The One" is not a new title brought about by the Matrix movies.
It is absolutely to do with that. If there were more than one, it wouldn't have been part of the prophecy that there was only one. Morpheus and everyone else would have been searching for multiple people, and the Oracle would have known this.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Sati never became "The One". I assume you are referring to The Matrix Online.Very disheartening that you would contest the EU while introducing elements of the Matrix EU. In fairness, you were recently enlightened to the EU's presence in this debate for the Star Wars side, so why not incorporate the EU from The Matrix, right? Fair's fair.
That's not really E.U. as a lot of it was written by the Wachowskis themselves.
-AC
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I'm not defending the spin-off thread. I also absolutely agree that trying to make a vs. fight between a Matrix character and a non-Matrix character is an exercise in futility, andfor that matetr the super-powered Luke of the EU is a travesty of fiction.But the fact of the matter is that super-powered Luke is a fact of the EU, and the idea that Neo is absolute God and Master of the Matrix and can do absolutely anything in it he likes... is not a fact of the Matrix films (which show nothing of the sort), it is a hypothesis.
RJ has been extremely attacked for, basically, stating this, and it does seem you have contributed to that. It's not on, and it is part of the reason the thread was closed. The fact that it hasn;t actually become outright flaming is why it's only a matter of the thread being closed, and not posters being warned.
Opinions are being disagreed with. These diagreements are reasonable. The ridiculous arguments sprining out of these disgreements are not going to be tolerated. The whole point and problem with a vs, thread like this is that there is no logical answer at all, so no-one can really be caned for holding... any opinion on it.
Lowering all pointed fingers, I believe what's being asked for is a bit too much. All bickering set aside, regardless if RJ was on the verge of "being attacked" or whatever, we're only doing our primary function, and that is being human.
If a person states: "Hey I can fly." Obviously there will be others who disagree because as far as I know, people can't fly. However that person will urge on telling all, that they indeed can fly, and plenty more will disagree and attempt to show this individual "their" side of the story however right or wrong it may be. Irritation and patience has always been a weakness in the human race, I believe we can't hardly be blamed for any of this. RJ stated his opinion, we disagreed, it raged on, and since we're human we continued to explain our side.
It's only natural that insults and massive flaming will ensue because our patience is being put to the test. I don't think RJ is at fault here for keeping a diligent mindset on what he's saying and I don't think we're wrong for pressuring him with our opinions on what he thinks.
If this goes on, the mods will have to ask us to stop living...
This is why arguments over religion, music, sports teams and to a certain point, several films, are never finished. Because these sort of threads are supposed to remain open-ended. The character one favors as an individual should be the winner. Isn't that how these threads work? We voice why the character we favor would win and leave it at that? How can there even be a victor at all?
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
In certain threads there can be general agreement, but when the stipulations essentially cause tens of pages or arguing...there's no hope.Either way, I've gone as far with this thread as I care too. If Dadudemon wishes to continue, he can PM me his reply.
-AC
As have I. I believe Neo can take this win, Luke from ep. 4-6 can not stand up to him. The thread starter first began with that version of Luke and that's the one I'm sticking with, also because I know so much about that version of Luke. He is strong, and extremely intelligent when it comes to catching on, a freakin' Jedi protege, however in The Matrix it'll take all his skill to even get close to Neo.
This is my choice and I'm sticking to it.
Yes, I know and I'm totally considering that, however I don't know anything about NJO Luke, therefore I cannot decide who'd win without proper knowledge of both fighters. Since I know ep. 4-6 Luke better, I shall acknowledge him as the contender so I can finally make a decision and be on my way.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Even if the thread starter realized ROTJ Luke had no chance against Neo, and decreed that we are talking NJO Luke?It's totally within his rights to do so if he wishes.
Originally posted by Scythe
The thread starter first began with that version of Luke and that's the one I'm sticking with, also because I know so much about that version of Luke.