Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Mad Jim Jaspers and the Fury fought across the universe, and I don't think they fought at superspeeds...
Beings that powerful can percieve time and space differently anyway so should be able to deal with speedsters. Grandmaster was able to perceive Makkari at high-speeds because he could alter time and space.
Maybe they were fighting at superspeed by default.
Originally posted by Larceny
Which has nothing to do with physical attributes, which we're discussing.Oh, we're talking about feats period? That'll take all day. Be more specific.
You're all over the place here.
Supeman's strength, speed, and durability? Little relevance to someone who's power encompasses a much broader array of abilities. It's funny that you actually believe physical attributes play such a major part in this fight when considering Thor's dealt with foes who's strength, durability, and speed dwarfs Superman's. His own, when stricken by WM Likely transcends Superman's, and if not he can easily amp to match it.
No, we're talking about amping, which Thor has done unless you'd like to write is off as his base. Again, something I doubt you wanna do.
Which was in correlation to Odin, at base, being slightly above your average Asgardian. The Kryptonoian reference has no relevance.
However it gives an idea of the speed they fought at. It gave us a time frame, and it gave us a distance. In the same breathe, it gave an idea of speed.
You're in a pretty high physical class when it takes someone pulling out the ALE to have to kill you in a mostly physical battle...
What does versatility have to do with anything? Superman is still much faster and stronger and performed just fine against a guy empowered by the source on a physical level. IM also had unlimited power...
What amp are you speaking of? When he dented caps shield, he also lost his arm to wolverine if I remember correctly...
Superman has also dealt with things that dwarf Thor many many times without amps...
The "idea of speed" isn't anything without any kind of number. Especially if it was an older comic where narration pretty much tells you things by the book.
Without playing semantics... Yes, Thor has more versatility, however, Superman's FAR SUPERIOR SPEED, DURABILITY, and STRENGTH more than make up for that unless you have rock solid proof of Thor being able to move himself at those speeds during battle or even on the regular.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
If Larceny can prove that Thor hasd control over time and space he canb deal with Supermans speed.
Dominus had control over both as well as reality...and Superman reversed the effects with T-vo.
Darkseid does as well with the Omega power and effect...
Even IF thor could pull any of the stuff being argued for, he'd still have to try to pull this off with a barrage of moon busting punches at speeds that make him look like he's standing still.
This really has become a "let's make excuses for Thor" thread...
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
HoM Scarlet Witch could remake realities that didn't necessarily imply she could perceive every single photon whizzing around her...
Maybe, maybe not. I dont know but I really would not expect people of that power to perceive reality the way we do. Hell even characters like Cap and Spiderman see bullets in slow motion by default really I think she should be able to perceive speedsters.
Even if she cant she should be able to then change her perception. Mantis could change her perception to percieve other timelines and hence characters of skyfather level should be able to do the same.
Originally posted by Avlon
It was his 1st time using the 'Vo against an extremely powerful opponent.It's not like he knew what Dominus was going to pull off on the fly while he was going back and forth.
That just makes it all the more impressive.
Its impressive but since Superman amped himself we cant assume that hes always going to be that powerful. 😐
Originally posted by Avlon
You're in a pretty high physical class when it takes someone pulling out the ALE to have to kill you in a mostly physical battle...What does versatility have to do with anything? Superman is still much faster and stronger and performed just fine against a guy empowered by the source on a physical level. IM also had unlimited power...
What amp are you speaking of? When he dented caps shield, he also lost his arm to wolverine if I remember correctly...
Superman has also dealt with things that dwarf Thor many many times without amps...
The "idea of speed" isn't anything without any kind of number. Especially if it was an older comic where narration pretty much tells you things by the book.
Without playing semantics... Yes, Thor has more versatility, however, Superman's FAR SUPERIOR SPEED, DURABILITY, and STRENGTH more than make up for that unless you have rock solid proof of Thor being able to move himself at those speeds during battle or even on the regular.
Again that has little relevance when your fighting someone with a unknown degree of strength. It could be a testament to the strength IM lacks as opposed to the strength Superman possess.
Versatility has a lot to do with this ability when that versatility encompasses the ability to amp your physical attributes to nigh infinite levels. Outside of that it gives you a host of other abilities to easily dispatch a one dimensional enemy. Which Superman is.
IM had unlimited power that he apparently didn't use to amp his physical attributes. Thor will. Also, that's sort of logical fallacy. It would be the same as me using the fact that Surfer has super strength, durability, and speed as proof as to why Thor beats Superman. Doesn't work like that.
Nope, two entirely separate instances. The issue where Thor dented Caps shield was years before he lost his arm. BTW, he didn't lose his arm to Wolverine. It's was lost due to unknown means.
My point. Hence, it's pointless to use that as an argument.
That's where common sense comes into part. For example, a gun is shot and Superman snatches the bullet before it hits the intended target. No, an exact speed isn't given, but an idea of the necessary speed is.
Far superior strength and durability? That's comical. His only true advantage is speed which a simple amp will eliminate.
Originally posted by Larceny
Again that has little relevance when your fighting someone with a unknown degree of strength. It could be a testament to the strength IM lacks as opposed to the strength Superman possess.
An unknown degree of strength is something that Thor has currently. He surely hasn't shown anything comparable to Supes since his rebirth...
I know infinity man took planet busting shots and took Superman very seriously. Apparently Metron believed in Supes as well. It still took the ALE to defeat IM.
Originally posted by Larceny
has a lot to do with this ability when that versatility encompasses the ability to amp your physical attributes to nigh infinite levels. Outside of that it gives you a host of other abilities to easily dispatch a one dimensional enemy. Which Superman is.
Nigh infinite levels...like a certain infinite guy with the sources power. I think I've seen that before.
Once again I gave Thor credit for his versatility BUT the big difference is that he would be KO'd or too busy trying to defend himself to use any of it.
That and the fact that your "one dimensional" guy is faster, stronger, has caught Thors hammer with one hand, can vibrate intangible through blasts, and feign invisibility from speed alone. Then there is that wonderful attack that taps into his opponents power source and let's Supes choose the battle conditions.
Even if we ran with the unproven Thor amp, I would imagine that would be mighty difficult for him to do when he's basically frozen in time as a statue compared to his opponent from the beginning.
Originally posted by Larceny
had unlimited power that he apparently didn't use to amp his physical attributes. Thor will. Also, that's sort of logical fallacy. It would be the same as me using the fact that Surfer has super strength, durability, and speed as proof as to why Thor beats Superman. Doesn't work like that.
Wait... a logical fallacy that he didn't amp up when he was killing new gods easily... and then you are trying to debate with examples where THOR hasn't amped up in a fight in the way that you want at all?
Bordernline hypocrisy right there.
Originally posted by Larceny
, two entirely separate instances. The issue where Thor dented Caps shield was years before he lost his arm. BTW, he didn't lose his arm to Wolverine. It's was lost due to unknown means.
Strangely enough Superman has been attacked by many many powerful beings and things...and has never lost an arm.
Originally posted by Larceny
point. Hence, it's pointless to use that as an argument.
Average kryptonian>>>>Average Asgardian. Just putting things into perspective.
Originally posted by Larceny
c where common sense comes into part. For example, a gun is shot and Superman snatches the bullet before it hits the intended target. No, an exact speed isn't given, but an idea of the necessary speed is.
Common sense would tell you that Superman has tons and tons of speed feats in many different scenarios where Thor has almost none.
The example you are trying to pass off (which is still from ODIN and not THOR) is not even a good one. Nothing was said of speed and magic was used apparently. In the old days of comics..narration would have handled that.
Surely if it's commonplace you can come up with tons of examples of Thors awesome speed.
Originally posted by Larceny
superior strength and durability? That's comical. His only true advantage is speed which a simple amp will eliminate.
The only comical thing is Thor being compared to Supes physically. He needs a hammer and now the Odinforce just to have a decent debate.
Even with that he's outmuscled and outsped.
All the versatility in the world isn't going to help you if your opponent is literally hundreds to thousands of times faster than you and stronger to begin with. There are tons of guys that are far more versatile than the Flash but would lose to him...
Standing still the guy (Supes) can crack a moon, add speed to that and it's just adding far more power exponentially to the hits.
I'll leave it alone at this... it is pretty obvious that it's an excuse fest at this point for Thor.
Originally posted by Master-Borg
you haven't proved at all that Thor can amp his speed, let only to FTL levels.
You mean let alone, not let only.
As far as I know, Thor has never had trouble hitting the top tiers. He got blitzed in his first encounter with the Surfer. After that he's shown himself to be pretty capable.
Originally posted by llagrok
You mean let alone, not let only.As far as I know, Thor has never had trouble hitting the top tiers. He got blitzed in his first encounter with the Surfer. After that he's shown himself to be pretty capable.
Don't you correct him! He's a Harvard graduate!
Or, at least, a State University of New York grad...