Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't think many people argue that Surfer's speedblitz ability is what wins it for him against Superman. Usually people point to his durability and power output. They also point to the exploitation of Superman's kryptonite and red sun radiation weaknesses, something he has exploited very often in the past with his other foes like Hulk, Gladiator, Wonderman and Vision.
but that doesn't fly...Thor can match Superman in durability nearly and exceeds superman's output...and can exploit superman's weakness to magic
the reason we superman supporters think thor loses is that all his advantages are simply useless if he cannot even comprehend his target because its moving so fast
therefore, if we say Surfer can beat superman, then he must be able to handle superman's speed
Originally posted by Master-Borg
but that doesn't fly...Thor can match Superman in durability nearly and exceeds superman's output...and can exploit superman's weakness to magicthe reason we superman supporters think thor loses is that all his advantages are simply useless if he cannot even comprehend his target because its moving so fast
therefore, if we say Surfer can beat superman, then he must be able to handle superman's speed
Handle? Most certainly.
Beat the shit out of in a race? Definitely.
Match combat speed blow for blow? Doubtful.
The Surfer could react to Superman's blitz, and he can travel fast enough to stay out of his reach, but he wouldn't jump around Superman like Spiderman does around random Joe Blow #332.
Originally posted by Creshosk
I have no problem letting travel speed translate to combat a little if they can react to and not hit things... You'll note tht I have not once said Superman beats Thor. I'm simply attacking the sham distinction that people perpetuate.
That just doesn't work to me.
Stunt drivers can drive at extremely high speeds in very densely packed object fields without running into a damned thing.
Much faster than any PRIDE fighter could drive, I assure you.
But if you went to the speed bag and tried to find who had the faster combat speed....
Well, what would you expect?
Originally posted by Soljer
Handle? Most certainly.Beat the shit out of in a race? Definitely.
Match combat speed blow for blow? Doubtful.
The Surfer could react to Superman's blitz, and he can travel fast enough to stay out of his reach, but he wouldn't jump around Superman like Spiderman does around random Joe Blow #332.
I think SS could match blow for blow pretty much, but would not be able to speedblitz him.
Originally posted by Master-BorgI do think Surfer can deal with Superman's speed. But he doesn't beat him with a speedblitz. That's a bit distinct from what you thought I said.
but that doesn't fly...Thor can match Superman in durability nearly and exceeds superman's output...and can exploit superman's weakness to magicthe reason we superman supporters think thor loses is that all his advantages are simply useless if he cannot even comprehend his target because its moving so fast
therefore, if we say Surfer can beat superman, then he must be able to handle superman's speed
Because I agree with the first part of what you said. Thor can match Superman in durability. Thor can exceed his power output. And Thor can exploit Superman's weakness to magic. But I also believe he can deal with Superman's combat speed with his FTL battle reflexes. Which is why I think Thor can do very well against Superman. Indeed, Thor does very well against Surfer too, historically speaking.
But Superman does utilize his combat speed effectively in combat. This is an advantage that Thor has not demonstrated himself. And FTL battle reflexes aren't the complete answer to Superman's combat speeds. But they do help prevent him from being completely overwhelmed by Superman's combat speed in a fight. As for Superman's combat speed, I still am not convinced that he can achieve a FTL speedblitz... especially through an appeal to travel speed.
Originally posted by Master-BorgOh... and co-signed again.
keyword: travelpoint: useless in a fight
EDIT: For clarification.
Originally posted by SoljerIts a good thing that superman is using something other than his own power to move in order to make your analogy not a false analogy, right?
That just doesn't work to me.Stunt drivers can drive at extremely high speeds in very densely packed object fields without running into a damned thing.
Much faster than any PRIDE fighter could drive, I assure you.
But if you went to the speed bag and tried to find who had the faster combat speed....
Well, what would you expect?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
As for Superman's combat speed, I still am not convinced that he can achieve a FTL speedblitz... especially through an appeal to travel speed.
how is the scan showing Superman building an entire city in moments an appeal to travel speed?
travel speed is flying in a certain trajectory
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
But Superman does utilize his combat speed effectively in combat. This is an advantage that Thor has not demonstrated himself. And FTL battle reflexes aren't the complete answer to Superman's combat speeds. But they do help prevent him from being completely overwhelmed by Superman's combat speed in a fight. As for Superman's combat speed, I still am not convinced that he can achieve a FTL speedblitz... especially through an appeal to travel speed..[/i]
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I didn't argue that was a travelling speed feat.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0so what were you talking about when you said you didn't buy Superman's FTL speedblitz through an appeal to travel speed?
I didn't argue that was a travelling speed feat.
as far as I know, non of the superman supporters have used travel speed to make the argument for his FTL speedblitz
Originally posted by Creshosk
Well Surfer then.I still think that reacting to things at a high speed will help them react to things at a high speed.
React.
Sure.
The Surfer can react to a punch thrown at high speeds, but cannot necessarily throw one at comparable speeds himself.
That and the fact that taking a literal side step is a very different action than 'swerving' on a surfboard.
Originally posted by SoljerAnd that's all I'm saying. I'm not saying, oh he can move fast there fore he can fight fast. I'm saying it helps. I mean if these FTL people don't slam into buildings while moving at the speeds they do, then the reverse of a building coming at them at FTL speeds they'd be able to dodge.
[b]React.Sure.
The Surfer can react to a punch thrown at high speeds, but cannot necessarily throw one at comparable speeds himself.
That and the fact that taking a literal side step is a very different action than 'swerving' on a surfboard. [/B]
To say that it doesn't translate at all ignores their reflexes.
Originally posted by Master-BorgI was referring to Creshock's argument that "FTL travel speed equals FTL combat speed." And yes, it appears that nobody else buys the argument. Considering his haranguing of me over it, to the point where me not believing that "FTL travel speed equals FTL combat speed" was a violation of the no-PIS rule, I thought that there might be other people out there willing to debate that position.
so what were you talking about when you said you didn't buy Superman's FTL speedblitz through an appeal to travel speed?as far as I know, non of the superman supporters have used travel speed to make the argument for his FTL speedblitz
Originally posted by Creshosk
And that's all I'm saying. I'm not saying, oh he can move fast there fore he can fight fast. I'm saying it helps. I mean if these FTL people don't slam into buildings while moving at the speeds they do, then the reverse of a building coming at them at FTL speeds they'd be able to dodge.To say that it doesn't translate at all ignores their reflexes.
Sure, it helps.
But, again...
Literally sidestepping is a very different movement than swerving - however they do it.