Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think your in love with Obi-Wan. too bad his jedi code wnt allow you to get intimate with him.
Save me the childish, pathetic insults. It is merely a sign of stupid desperation.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You actually think Force Pushing is a sign of weakness. i.e. hes done that because his Juyos not enough?????? yeah ok then so that means.......Anakin got Dooku into an armlock because his unparalled power and Djem So was not enough...
Lol, Anakin beat Dooku via a grappling move and superior physical power; Dooku's technical skill was miles ahead of Anakin's, but Anakin's physical dominancy allowed him to defeat the count. There's a HUGE difference between that and kicking someone.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maul hit Qui-Gon with his Lightsaber handle because he culdnt do it with his blade...
Lightsaber handle=legitimate strike. He cut down Qui-Gon with a saber, so thus, he penetrated Qui-Gon's defenses with a lightsaber. Kicking someone down a pit does not mean you can necessarily beat him in pure sabers.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Dooku took Anakin out with Force Lightning because he culdnt do it with his Saber..
It's simpler. Dooku was about to face two Jedi, his best choice would be to quickly take the simple opportunity and take out Anakin.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan Force Pushed Greivous because he culdnt outduel him anymore...
Obi-Wan was seen, in the fight, to completely dominate Grievous. It's not the same as Grievous forcing him back and then Obi-Wan pushing him... use evidence, for christ's sake.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace had to kick and disarm Sidious because theres no way he could have taken him with his blade..
Debatable. If you notice the fight and read the novel, you'd see Sidious was overwhelming him; Mace's Vaapad, and shatterpoint skills, as well as Sidious' 'rustiness' with a saber (gone in the Yoda fight) won him the fight.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidious was throwing pods at Yoda because there was nothing else he could do to him..
Sidious and Yoda are downright equal in saber combat. Sidious understood that, and chose to take the easier route of using his force powers.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Do you realise how unbelievably daft your logic is yet???? Or do i need to find more examples????
Now, think for yourself, alright? Someone is fighting you. You obivious far exceed them in combat skills; will you kick them or kill them with your weapon? It's obivious. Using something other than saber combat means that either you are incapable of taking the target out in another way, or is just easier. In Maul's case, it was the latter; Obi-Wan could not be easily defeated in a saber fight, so Maul took the easier route. Nothing wrong with that.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and by the way Maul defeated Obi1 almost the same way he defeated Qui-Gon. First he Pushed Qui-Gon and Obi-wans saber back towards them with his saber to create an opening, and then once he had that opening, he hit Qui-Gon to disorienate and stab him, but with Obi1 he decided to use that opening he created WITH HIS BLADE to push and disarm him instead.. in a split second decision when you have an opening you can do anything, as you dnt have time to stand there and decide which attack wuld be best in this opening. Also he didnt have his huge handle to hit Obi-1 with at that point like he did to Qui-Gon.
RIGHT. He beat him in a saberlock, that must mean Obi-Wan could be cut down! That makes no sense whatsoever; it's true that with a double-ended lightsaber, at that point, Maul could defeat Obi-Wan easier, but if he didn't kill him with a saber stroke, it's obivious he didn't find it to have a 100% gurantee of a dead Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and by the way you claim an enraged Obi1 culd pass Mauls defences but not vice versa... well after hitting his double bladed handle(which is no big blow to maul.. it just gets rid of his better weapon advantage), then they fought single saber to single saber.. and guess what? An enraged powered up Kenobi COULD NOT get past Mauls defences Saber to Saber!! and the fact that Maul used his Saber to create an opening just like he did to Qui-Gon clearly shows he Outduelled an Enraged Powered up Kenobi and clearly bested him in 35 seconds.
Still ranting about how he outduelled him... bested him, yes. But he, an offensive Sith using an offensive form, could not gain the upper hand and attacking position on Obi-Wan without Obi-Wan pressing the assault. That's damned impressive.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Since Kenobis Ataru did not improve much over the years, and an Enraged Powered up Kenobi could not pass Mauls defences, then it is very unlikely a more cool headed. ROTS Kenobi is gna pass his defences either.
Soresu- as seen in the Grievous fight- can CREATE openings, allowing Obi-Wan to take advantage of them. His far superior tactical mind will simply allow him to better take advantage of them.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And talking of defenses. You claim Kenobi was only being forced back by Anakin because thats his defensive style... well do you not think while fighting off 2 jedis Maul might be slightly on the defence as well, so will legitimately move back from time to time???
Ah, but Maul was moving back the whole 2 vs. 1 fight, wasn't he? Using some blocks is legitimate. He was basically only defending until he knocked down Obi-Wan; both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan aren't drastically below Maul, together, they will eventually pwn him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And stop giving me this padwan rubbish. we all know he was ready to be knighted in that movie so padawan was just a name at that point.
So, I'll change that; Maul could not easily overcome a 13 years younger Obi-Wan who did not even master his chosen form. What does it make Maul?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Since most your argument is based on Young Obi1s fight on Maul, I think this alone shows ROTSObi1 does not clearly outclass Maul as you seem to think. So I dnt really need to adress ALL of your other points.
I fail to understand how you can still claim that Maul's saber skills >>>>>> TPM Obi-Wan's saber skills, when Obi-Wan was having the upper hand on him. If the difference is as big as you would like to pretend, Maul should have WTFpwned Obi-Wan effortlessly.
Let's drop this argument, though. You are NOT going to concede, I see that now.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your usual flawless logic! by this logic if every jedi/sith whose a little bit less goes down a whole level, then very soon wed be in minus ratings.also just because Kenobi found Dookus style more devastating than Mauls doesnt mean Dookus lightsaber skills are more devastating than Mauls.. it just means Kenobi has a harder time against Makashi then against Juyo.
But Obi-Wan said that Dooku was FAR more devestatingly powerful than Maul. FAR, yes, FAR, the guy who Obi-Wan admitted to overpowering him was FAR weaker than his current opponent. Need I say more? It's at least the difference of a level.
If AOTC Obi-Wan, far more experienced and a master (although not DA ULTIMATE master like in ROTS) of Soresu, had a harder time against Dooku than his weaker, less experienced incarnation had against Maul. Connect the dots yourself.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Oh and by the way Maul needs to be a high level master of Makashi and Djem So to Master his Juyo. which means if his Juyo is not effective against Kenobis Soresu then he can switch to Makashi. or Teras Kasi, or whatever works. This also shows Maul is more technically skilled than Anakin or Obi1.
And when, exactly, did you decide one needs to be a master of Makashi and Djem So to be a master of Juyo? But this is irrelevant. If Juyo fails, all other, inferior forms fail. Maul's Makashi, if he indeed mastered it, would be no where near as good as Obi-Wan's.
Maul knows more, it's true, but his prowess with his best form is inferior to Obi-Wan's prowess with his best form; and unlike Maul, Obi-Wan proved he can fluently fuse numerous forms.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and you seem to keep forgetting Greivous cant use the Force to defend himself. So no Greivous doesnt have faster reflexes than Maul, because with the help of the Force Maul can "See Things Before they Happen.." I know he took down other Jedis with Force Powers but Maul is more powerful than the vast majority of jedis.
It's true, but Grievous' machine abilities will allow him to match with Maul's force capacities (which are not exactly oh-so-amazing).
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I personally think Mauls kicks help a lot as well to take down Obi1 as he doeant seem to have much defence against this while saber fighting.. and yes Mauls kicks are better than Anakins, due to his Martial Arts.
I fully agree with this, but Anakin, being a master of Djem So and showed to use overpoweringly powerful strikes will likely overcome Maul in BRUTE strength. Technique > Strength, of course, but if a kick straight to the face from Anakin could do little to disarm Obi-Wan, I doubt a kick from Maul will do severe damage to Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think iv provided more than a good argument here as to why Maul has more than just a chance here. So until you come out with something new, i dnt see the need in keep repeating myself, which I think we are both doing here to be honest.
Let's see... you could not successfully throw off my points about:
-NG's rankings.
-Obi-Wan's superior Soresu mastery in comparison to Maul's mastery of Juyo.
-The fact that a weaker, inferior Padawan using a form weak in defense could not have his defenses easily penetrated by the saber skills of Maul's Juyo.
-The fluent usage of several forms in Obi-Wan's arsenal.
-Obi-Wan's overcoming of enemies who are faster and more brutal than Maul.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lets just accept that you dnt accept my arguments here nd i dnt accept yours, so theres no point in us both carrying on pointlessly rambling and repeating ourselves.
Agreed. Let's just respectfully disagree; we'll do little to convince each other.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
anyone can read them all (if thery really bored) and make up there own mind.
Yup.
And to Gideon; I've been a martial artist for over 8 years, and I know the fact that technique > strength, but this is not always the case. Occasionally, brute power can be more useful; it's rare, but it happens.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
But, despite many people saying that the Old Sith are the strongest, I'm of the opinion that the modern sith are far superior to the old sith. Aka Marka Ragnos, Revan, etc... and so are the Jedi.
That's not really fair...The Jedi are above yes but in no way does Maul or Dooku compare to heavy hitters of the Old Sith.
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
That's not really fair...The Jedi are above yes but in no way does Maul or Dooku compare to heavy hitters of the Old Sith.
Maul, possibly not. Dooku? Name me one ancient Sith that can take him on in saber combat. It's just my personal opinion that the Ancient Sith were artifact-using force masters... except for possibly Kun, Revan, and Bane, I don't see any of them challenging Dooku in saber skills. Though, once again, my knowledge of the Ancient Sith is limited, but they seemed to be ridiculously overestimated on additions.
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Well I don't think a saber duel is all that important.
It's only one part of the fight. Their power in the Force is what really matters.
Questionable. Occasionally, duels are solved by either the force or the saber- they're equally important. It's also my favorite part of fighting ^^.
Ulic would put up a decent fight but lose fairly easily, similarly to AOTC Obi-Wan; Revan, with the proof that's surrounding him taking on very exceptional foes will probably make him a challenge to Dooku. But not AS good as Dooku.
The power in the force, also, let me remind you is a huge part of saber fighting; both Sidious and Yoda, some of the more impressive fighters, use a huge amount of the force to augment their saber-fighting.
Nontheless, there are few Ancient Sith who I can confidently say are beyond Dooku in force powers, too; there's a difference between portraying things on film and on comics and novels.
I wasnt going to continue, but have to respond to some of the things youve sed.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Save me the childish, pathetic insults. It is merely a sign of stupid desperation.
chill out mate. that wasnt an insult. it was a blatant joke.. if you took that seriously then you seriously need to get out more! anyway dnt worry i wnt joke with you anymore!
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Lol, Anakin beat Dooku via a grappling move and superior physical power; Dooku's technical skill was miles ahead of Anakin's, but Anakin's physical dominancy allowed him to defeat the count. There's a HUGE difference between that and kicking someone..
Lol! How?? if you grapple sum1 and then stab them, or if you kick some1 and then stab them... whats the difference.. either way your outduleing the other person which is why theyve left the opening and your able to take it..
Anakin beat the Count because with the advantage of his power he became a better duelist. thats why he was a level 9. and you havent been able to prove my point wrong, about kicking, grappling, pushing sum1 during a fight to get their defence down... its all the same crap! so ur argument that Maul Force Pushed Obi1 because he culdnt outduel him is not valid.
Just like it wuld be complete nonsense to say that Anakin grappled Dooku because he culdtnt outduel him! you just go for whatever opening you get during the fight. and take it.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Lightsaber handle=legitimate strike. He cut down Qui-Gon with a saber, so thus, he penetrated Qui-Gon's defenses with a lightsaber. Kicking someone down a pit does not mean you can necessarily beat him in pure sabers...
for GODS sakes..... Obi-Wan was on the floor and disarmed, therfore wuld have easily been cut down with A Saber, therfore just as legitimate as what Maul did to Qui-Gon!!!
hows hitting with a handle any more legitimate than kicking or force pushing the guy.. they were both meant to disorientate the guy so Maul can make his strike.. and they were both done because Maul forced an opening on them with HIS SABER!!!
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
It's simpler. Dooku was about to face two Jedi, his best choice would be to quickly take the simple opportunity and take out Anakin....
exactly simpler! doesnt mean he culdnt have outduelled them both. but it was also a display of how much more superior he was than either of them. Mauls push in the middle of such an intense lightsaber duel was also a display of superiority, as were his very powerful kicks.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Obi-Wan was seen, in the fight, to completely dominate Grievous. It's not the same as Grievous forcing him back and then Obi-Wan pushing him... use evidence, for christ's sake.....
the principle is the same. ur saying Maul pushed Obi1 and disarmed him becuase there was nothing else he could do..
well as the fight with Obi1 and Grevious shows, thats just not true.. because even though we know Obi1 was outduelling him, he still CHOSE to Force push and consequently disarm greivous. its just a more efficient move, which only the superior duelist will get the oppurtunity to do mid-saber fight.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Now, think for yourself, alright? Someone is fighting you. You obivious far exceed them in combat skills; will you kick them or kill them with your weapon? It's obivious. Using something other than saber combat means that either you are incapable of taking the target out in another way, or is just easier. In Maul's case, it was the latter; Obi-Wan could not be easily defeated in a saber fight, so Maul took the easier route. Nothing wrong with that......
no you just go for the first opening. if you can disarm sum1 and have them lying on the floor defenceless with a mere push, then ull be just as fine doing that.
Obi1 proved this when we saw him disarm Greivous with a simple push, instead of continuing to outduel him. The fact that the opponents left an opening and given you the oppurtunity to take any kind of strike at him shows your outdueliing him.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Still ranting about how he outduelled him... bested him, yes. But he, an offensive Sith using an offensive form, could not gain the upper hand and attacking position on Obi-Wan without Obi-Wan pressing the assault. That's damned impressive.......
actually I think its more impressive that after fighting 2 jedis for sooo long, then fighting a jedi master on his own twice, that he still managed to best an Enraged and Power Boosted Jedi Knight.
dnt get me wrong, it was really good the way young Obi1 managed to fight. but that doesnt mean on even ground and circumstances that TPM Obi1 was even close to Maul. and ROTS Obi 1 has to attack with Ataru(or possibly Shii-Chp), and Obi1s Ataru had not really improved much since TPM.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Soresu- as seen in the Grievous fight- can CREATE openings, allowing Obi-Wan to take advantage of them. His far superior tactical mind will simply allow him to better take advantage of them..
well as iv already shown Maul is fully capable of creating openings as well, and with his martial arts has many ways to take those openings, not just with his saber(which I admit ROTS Obi1 will be able to defend his saber attacks, but not necessarily Easily).
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
So, I'll change that; Maul could not easily overcome a 13 years younger Obi-Wan who did not even master his chosen form. What does it make Maul?..
A Maul whod been fighting for quite long, did not Easily Overcome an Enraged 13 years Younger Obi1, who was Powered up, and using the offensive which he still uses 13 years later to around the same level of near-mastery.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Let's drop this argument, though. You are NOT going to concede, I see that now.?..
and Vice Versa.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
But Obi-Wan said that Dooku was FAR more devestatingly powerful than Maul. FAR, yes, FAR, the guy who Obi-Wan admitted to overpowering him was FAR weaker than his current opponent. Need I say more? It's at least the difference of a level.
Your gna have to find me exactly where that quote is because i cant find it. neway AOTC Obi1 was a level 7. and he was no where near a match for Dooku. and to be honest, id put Dooku at Very Close to a 9, but still in the 8 category. So theres a lot of room for Maul to fit in between somewhere.
Anyway heres some more cannon eveidence for you. Clone Maul was a good match for OT Vader. and OT Vader is said by Lucas to be 80% of Sidious. so if you claim that ROTS Kenobi completely outclasses Maul, then you also claim that not only does ROTS Kenobi completely outclass OT Vader but also that ROTS Kenobi must be at least 90% of Sidious?????? very unlikely!
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
And when, exactly, did you decide one needs to be a master of Makashi and Djem So to be a master of Juyo? But this is irrelevant. If Juyo fails, all other, inferior forms fail. Maul's Makashi, if he indeed mastered it, would be no where near as good as Obi-Wan's..
but the point is its not about inferiority... its about which form would have the best chance against Obi1's form.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Maul knows more, it's true, but his prowess with his best form is inferior to Obi-Wan's prowess with his best form; and unlike Maul, Obi-Wan proved he can fluently fuse numerous forms...
Also Juyo IS a fluent fuse of numerous forms. So Maul obviously can do that.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
It's true, but Grievous' machine abilities will allow him to match with Maul's force capacities (which are not exactly oh-so-amazing).
Read more Maul stuff. Nuff Said
AND THE RESULTS FROM TPM DUEL ARE OUT!!
Ambition and refusing to get killed=Kenobi
Cockiness, DumbAssity and allowing himself to get killed=Maul
All out=Kenobi, because refusing to give up, even when your hanging off of a cliff>letting yourself get killed by a padawan because you didn't expect him to jump, and not finishing him off while he is hanging off of a cliff.
For how difficult this is, its really easy. TPM maul would take about 75% of kenobi's effort to kill. Why? well, there is this neverending chain Maul</= Vader=Kenobi<TPM Kenobi 60%Maul. Kenobi is a step up on the food chain from taking 70% of maul's effort to totally own him. Kenobi is a step down from Maul taking 100% of vaders effort to totally own him. Give him an average, and that is what you get. 😄 ( don't debate this, its an honest joke)
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
That has been established since the first page, what is being debated (or it was when i was posting not to sure what is going on now) was the degree of difficulty to which Obiwan wins.
well what im debating is that even though Kenobi probably wins I still think that Maul has the advantage in overall saber and combat skills unless someone proves to me otherwise(which so far i havent seen any convincing eveidence).
oh and whats going on now is that me and sidi-boy just keep arguing on TPM fight becuase his whole argument of why ROTS Kenobi wins easily seems to be based on this..
he seems to think its really significant that Maul bested Kenobi with a Force Push... apparently becuase he culdnt do it with his saber. I on the other hand think thats just over analysing.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well what im debating is that even though Kenobi probably wins I still think that Maul has the advantage in overall saber and combat skills unless someone proves to me otherwise(which so far i havent seen any convincing eveidence).oh and whats going on now is that me and sidi-boy just keep arguing on TPM fight becuase his whole argument of why ROTS Kenobi wins easily seems to be based on this..
he seems to think its really significant that Maul bested Kenobi with a Force Push... apparently becuase he culdnt do it with his saber. I on the other hand think thats just over analysing.
No, my whole argument is primarily based of his defeats of Grievous and Anakin, but since you cannot refute that, you go back to the TPM fight.
However, I'm done with this debate. You're not gonna get convinced, I'm not gonna get convinced. You're right; let people see this debate and decide for themselves.