TPM Maul vs ROTS Kenobi

Originally posted by Gideon
I never denied that he used Shii-Cho, I merely wanted proof, and that does not prove that Kenobi was deeply proficient with the form.

Think about it this way; Obi-Wan was considered a master swordsman, one of the greatest heroes of the Clone Wars, and Dooku was very well-aware of Obi-Wan's reputation. In fact, he probably preferred Obi-Wan as the Sith apprentice rather than Anakin. Dooku was a master lightsaber combatant with extreme knowledge of the forms for over 60 years; please... unless Obi-Wan had some significant skill with Shii-Cho, I seriously doubt he would be incapable of asserting that Obi-Wan was not using his true power in the fight.

Originally posted by Gideon
It's not about the length of the message, truejedi, it's about substantiating things. All of what I have said is common knowledge: Maul's training makes Kenobi's look pathetic and as a master of Juyo, he has had to master multiple forms.

Good training does not necessarily spell a victory in a fight. Maul was the better physical opponent to Obi-Wan, it's true, but it's also true that Sidious- the guy who did not practice with a lightsaber for over a decade, in your own words- was capable of effortlessly slaughtering three of the Order's greatest swordsman in the time of 20 seconds. And Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto were all regular fighters on the Clone Wars and probably trained regularly, particularly Kolar, who was acknowledged as a superb lightsaber fighter in particular.

Originally posted by Gideon
The fact that Maul was stranded on a desolate planet in the Outer Rim, hunted by scores of assassin droids for days, and then immediately engaged in a duel with Darth Sidious would indicate that his stamina outclasses Kenobi's own.

Nobody doubts the fact that Maul's stamina is unmatched; but Obi-Wan's Soresu specializes in expanding extremely little energy, so I seriously doubt he is going to get TIRED during the fight.

Originally posted by Gideon
Words cannot begin to describe how utterly wrong you are. Makashi is the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat", meaning that form is superior in terms of pure bladework. Soresu is the form for pure defense, naturally, it is superior than other forms in terms of pure defense. Yoda referred to Vaapad as the "deadliest" of all forms, meaning that it is the most dangerous. The idea that no form is superior to another is absolutely absurd.

I believe what he meant was to say that it's impossible to say that "Soresu is better than Makashi", or something like that. Juyo is the deadliest lightsaber form- it's designed for killing, and is thus almost forgotten among the Jedi, but it's focus on killing does not make it any more powerful; just more focused on lethally striking the opponent.

Originally posted by Gideon
He has the advantage in that he is a master of multiple forms, his training is vastly superior, and he is the more skilled and physically capable combatant.

Master of multiple forms? Possibly. But in my previous post, I addressed these points, so you can check that ^^.

Superior training? Undoubtedly. Physically capable? Probably. More skilled? I don't think so.

I've said it all in my previous post; I'm not gonna rewrite my argument here, since that'll be a foolish waste of time 😮‍💨

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
what did he do to Anakin? tactically outsmarted him.. Iv already said he probably could do this to Maul.. win by outsamrting him after a long fight.

Obi-Wan also forced Anakin to perform clumsier moves, causing him to become more and more frustrated, ultimately resulting in his lack of judgement. It's what Soresu is all about, it's not necessarily a tactical ability; Soresu is about letting the opponent make mistakes, causing their offense to become sloppier. If Anakin's judgement was not clouded? He would never have made the jump.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also even though Anakin was much more powerful than Maul, he simply doesnt have the Control or Technical skill that Maul has. List Anakins sword fighting/combat skills, and then list Mauls and you will see that for yourself.

Is there any proof Anakin lacks the technical skill of Maul? 'Knowing more forms' isn't always the best thing; like Obi-Wan, Anakin chose to specialize in one form while using other forms to support it. In this case, Anakin completely mastered Djem So and incorporated Shien and Ataru elements into it. I know you're gonna give me the 'martial artist' and 'multiple lightsaber forms' argument again, but you fail to realize that if Maul's best form- Juyo- will not succeed, there is no logic in stating that an inferior form will.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Also Anakin and Obi-Wan knew each others every move so thats a totally different fight(and will probably give the teacher the edge)

Not necessarily. If they were both users of the same form? Hell yeah. But they weren't- Obi-Wan only taught Anakin the basics of swordfighting, not the actual form.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Grevious doesnt have Mauls Mastery over Lightsaber forms, his Control, or his Force Powers.. iv alrady explained this several times.

BUT he has better speed, reflexes, physical power, and lightsaber blades. It balances each other out, you know; it's for that reason that I say that Maul = Grievous.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Sidi-Boy your apparent proof that ROTS Kenobi is far superior to TPM Maul is based on your speculation of the TPM fight. That Maul apparently wasnt able to breach young Obi-Wans defence, that young Obi-Wan temporarily matched and was overpowering Maul, and was able to breach his defence so what chance would Maul have over the older Obi-Wan??
I dnt agree with any of this about the fight between Maul and Young Obi1 and have given detailed descriptions in previous posts why, so dnt see the need in repeating myself.

and nor do Obi-Wans own account of the fight in his journal agree with your assessment of the fight (which Gideon and Elite Hunter have been nice enough to post.)

As Lord Knightfall kindly stated, Obi-Wan's modesty will come into play here. Also, by the way, Obi-Wan said that Maul manipulated Obi-Wan's enclouded senses and caused him to form an opening in which he could throw in the force push.

You have yet to explain, other than "LAWL Maul pushed OB1 into a ptit he rulez lol" why Maul- who was incapable of breaching Obi-Wan's inferior defense via saber skills during their engagement- would be capable of having a chance to breach Obi-Wan's defenses when he has become possibly the greatest master of Soresu- the form best with defense- in history. I've already explained multiple times why Obi-Wan will be quick to cause Maul's strikes to become more clumsy, and will subsequently quickly relieve him of his weapon. Give me any reason why that seems impossible.

Once again- if Juyo was his best form, and he could not use it to penetrate Obi-Wan's defenses, then what chance would his other forms have? He's not gonna be using them all at once.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
so therefore you have proved nothing to me about ROTS Obi1 having superior combat and lightsaber skills to Maul. If you look at the list and variety of their lightsaber and combat skills, then it is clear Maul is definetely ahead in these aspects at least.

Of course. Let's least their feats once again, shall we?

Obi-Wan:

1. Mastered Soresu to the highest imaginable degree.
2. Was extremely proficient- to near-master- with Ataru, a form he used to get close to killing Maul when he was merely a young Padawan.
3. Was capable of using Shii-Cho to such proficieny that he could dupe Dooku.
4. Was a relatively good unarmed combatant.

Maul:

1. Mastered Juyo.
2. Had knowledge and possible mastery of other forms, but on a lesser degree than his Juyo.
3. Was an excellent unarmed combatant.
4. Mastered the usage of dual sabers, single saber, and double-saber.

Out of all of them, the only trait I see that could prove to be a danger to Obi-Wan is Maul's superior mastery of Teras Kasi; however, other than that, if Maul can't use double-lightsaber, with his best form, to penetrate a drastically weaker Obi-Wan who was using an unmastered form weak in defense saber defenses, there is absolutely no reason why he could penetrate the later Obi-Wan's defenses. And as we've seen multiple times, Obi-Wan is a master at disarming people; and Maul is a master of getting disarmed. In two of his three duels, his lightsaber was cut in half, and I'm pretty sure Obi-Wan would be smart enough to take a hand with it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Maul disarmed Obi-Wan twice. if thats not penetrating Obi1s Saber defense then I dnt knw what is... not to mention Maul was outduelling both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan together.

Dude seriously, Maul could have fought and killed 2 Obi-Wans simultaneously in TPM. Kenobi culdnt keep up with the fight and hence got smacked really hard and disarmed. If there was another Obi-Wan ther instead of Qui-Gon then they both would have died!

It was only Qui-Gons hit on Maul that started turning the tides of the fight.

Whatever you say, man. I'm beginning to see it would be completely impossible to convince you that TPM Obi-Wan isn't one eighth of Maul's strength, as I've proven multiple times. Maul WAS OUTDUELLING BOTH AT THE SAME TIME? They were pushed him back continously, and in order to avoid being killed, he spent all of his efforts to disabling Obi-Wan so he can take Qui-Gon alone. Two TPM Obi-Wan's won't be able to kill Maul? Oh, c'mon. One enraged TPM Obi-Wan was nearly capable of doing that. NEARLY is not enough. Two Obi-Wan's... Maul gets his ass handed to him, big time.

About Qui-Gon's hit? You're beginning to make things up. Obi-Wan was kicked, fell down a lot, and lost his lightsaber. Maul was kicked, fell down less due to simple luck, and did not lose his lightsaber; rather, being a stamina beast, he quickly kicks Qui-Gon and kept on fighting. I meant penetrating someone's defense WITH A SABER. A SABER. As in, slashing their head off with a lightsaber. As in, what Maul did to Qui-Gon. As in, not what he did to Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
when did they say Dooku was a level 8?? and your logic is flawed, because Obi-Wans reamrk about Dooku being a more devastating foe than Maul does not necessarily mean in Saber skills. Whilst NG's ratings were all about Saber skills.

Mauls saber skills may be very close to Dookus, but Dooku would still be a far more devastating foe due to his far superior Mastery if the Force (e.g. Force Lightning e.t.c.)

He stated that Anakin, Windu, Sidious, and Yoda were the only 9's. Gee, I don't see Dooku's name there, do I? And since Obi-Wan is an 8, doesn't it mean that Dooku is also likely an 8? Unless you think he is lower.

I remeber in AOTC just how Dooku force-pwned Obi-Wan... wait, he didn't. He used lightning and Obi-Wan blocked it like it was nothing. I'm pretty sure he was unimpressed by that display of power. Unlike in the Maul encounter, you could see how Dooku was outduelling a ten years more experienced and more powerful Obi-Wan while Maul was incapable of doing the same thing to a weaker Obi-Wan with the ease Dooku showed. Please, decide if Dooku = Maul in saber skills.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Obi-Wan also forced Anakin to perform clumsier moves, causing him to become more and more frustrated, ultimately resulting in his lack of judgement. It's what Soresu is all about, it's not necessarily a tactical ability; Soresu is about letting the opponent make mistakes, causing their offense to become sloppier. If Anakin's judgement was not clouded? He would never have made the jump.

you underestimate my power to jump 10 feet.... seriously, for the dramatic way that he got pwnt, anakin shows the jumping capabilities of a bloated beached whale.

2. Had knowledge and possible mastery of other forms, but on a lesser degree than his Juyo.

I guess "high end master of multiple forms" is too ambiguous for you?

tis a deffinite probability.

tis true...

Tis' a FACT...

Tis a REALITY. 😒

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Is there any proof Anakin lacks the technical skill of Maul? 'Knowing more forms' isn't always the best thing; like Obi-Wan, Anakin chose to specialize in one form while using other forms to support it. In this case, Anakin completely mastered Djem So and incorporated Shien and Ataru elements into it. I know you're gonna give me the 'martial artist' and 'multiple lightsaber forms' argument again, but you fail to realize that if Maul's best form- Juyo- will not succeed, there is no logic in stating that an inferior form will.

Anakin had "Comletley Mastered" Djem So???? whered you get that from? I think Djem So was the Offensive opposite of Soresu, so if Anakin had "Completely Mastered" it, then he wuld have been equal to Obi-Wan in technical skill alone.

Neway Gideons right. "High Level Master of Multiple Forms" clearly is not registering in your head.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

BUT he has better speed, reflexes, physical power, and lightsaber blades. It balances each other out, you know; it's for that reason that I say that Maul = Grievous..

Possibly equal, but Different. So you cant compare Obi-Wans fight with Greivous to Obi-Wans fight with Maul.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

As Lord Knightfall kindly stated, Obi-Wan's modesty will come into play here. Also, by the way, Obi-Wan said that Maul manipulated Obi-Wan's enclouded senses and caused him to form an opening in which he could throw in the force push...

thats why Obi-Wan getting a power boost from his rage was never gna work.(not to mention Maul was weaker in the final fight after having fought fo so long and taken a hard hit to the back.) so you have to compare the way Obi1 was fightin before Qui-Gon died. in which case YES Maul would have killed 2 Obi1s!

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
You have yet to explain, other than "LAWL Maul pushed OB1 into a ptit he rulez lol" why Maul- who was incapable of breaching Obi-Wan's inferior defense via saber skills...

Mate how many times do I have to explain this??? He Penetrated Qui-Gons Saber defenses whose Ataru was not only superior to PM Obi-Wan but also superior to ROTS Obi-Wans Ataru!
If you honestly think Maul was not capable of penetrating PM OBi1's defences then your living in your own world! he was outdueling him like 95% of the fight, disarming him twice... And So what if he disarmed him with a kick or Force Push! that just proves Maul has multiple ways to take out Obi-Wan and shows his vastly superior Combat skills.

And by the way theres nothing stopping him kicking ROTS Obi-Wan hard in the face as well(possibly knocking him out). If Anakin was able to get multiple kicks in, and even Asajj Ventress was able to kick him, then I dnt see whats stopping Maul whose clearly got the best Martial Arts skills.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Out of all of them, the only trait I see that could prove to be a danger to Obi-Wan is Maul's superior mastery of Teras Kasi;...

You see Maul has such a Wide range of skills he can just decide which of his Highly Mastered skills would be appropriate to fight Obi1. Whilst Obi-Wan best and Only hope is his Soresu. The only Saber fighting form which hes Mastered.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Whatever you say, man. I'm beginning to see it would be completely impossible to convince you that TPM Obi-Wan isn't one eighth of Maul's strength,;...

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

as I've proven multiple times. Maul WAS OUTDUELLING BOTH AT THE SAME TIME?,;...

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
I meant penetrating someone's defense WITH A SABER. A SABER. As in, slashing their head off with a lightsaber. As in, what Maul did to Qui-Gon. As in, not what he did to Obi-Wan...

yet another suggestion from you that TPM Obi-Wan was a better fighter than TPM Qui-Gon.. when its fact that he was not as good as him. and the fact that Maul penetrated Qui-Gons defence (with a SABER) is proof that he can do it to Obi-Wan. and the fact that he took Obi1 out with a kick or a push just shows his vastly superior and more wide ranged combat skills.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

He stated that Anakin, Windu, Sidious, and Yoda were the only 9's. Gee, I don't see Dooku's name there, do I? And since Obi-Wan is an 8, doesn't it mean that Dooku is also likely an 8? Unless you think he is lower.

I remeber in AOTC just how Dooku force-pwned Obi-Wan... wait, he didn't. He used lightning and Obi-Wan blocked it like it was nothing. I'm pretty sure he was unimpressed by that display of power. Unlike in the Maul encounter, you could see how Dooku was outduelling a ten years more experienced and more powerful Obi-Wan while Maul was incapable of doing the same thing to a weaker Obi-Wan with the ease Dooku showed. Please, decide if Dooku = Maul in saber skills.

did he say ONLY 9's.. because i dnt remember him saying ONLY. but I think most people on these boards would agree that Dookus sword skills are better than Obi1's, so I guess that would make Dooku like an 8 and a half or sumthing.

I remember in ROTS when Dooku takes out Obi-1 with a slight hand gesture in the middle of a saber fight with him, while simultaneously kicking Anakin away. Mauls force attacks are not THAT Masterful, hence why Dooku is a more devastating opponent than Maul.

Lol. Could Elite Hunter and Gideon please clarify if you think Obi or Maul will win? Thank you. xD

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin had "Comletley Mastered" Djem So???? whered you get that from? I think Djem So was the Offensive opposite of Soresu, so if Anakin had "Completely Mastered" it, then he wuld have been equal to Obi-Wan in technical skill alone.

"Completely mastered" is not entirely about technical skill; some forms are more refined, more controlled than others. I think the best example of this is Makashi; Makashi is an extremely controlled form all about the technical prowess of the wielder, while Djem So relies on brute power and aggressive techniques. Not as much about technical skill as about the power and dominancy of the wielder- indeed, in his fight against Dooku, it was proven that power is often far more important than technical skill.

Are you denying the fact that Anakin completely mastered Djem So? Don't give me that crap. He mastered it to the same degree that Obi-Wan mastered Soresu, that's why they seemed so evenly matched on Mustafar.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Neway Gideons right. "High Level Master of Multiple Forms" clearly is not registering in your head.

Look, you misunderstood me. I'll try re-explaining:

Most of the top swordsmen in history had mastery of most, if not all, of the forms.

Sidious was a master of all the forms. Yoda was a master of all the forms. Windu was a master of all the forms, or at least most of them. Dooku, being capable of teaching Grievous the numerous forms, must have had some skill in all of the forms.

Other than Sidious here; who arguably, and according to my opinion, does use Juyo and/or Ataru; each one of these fighters have selected a single form in which to specialize and master to a higher degree than other forms. Yoda could use Ataru better than he could use Djem So, Mace could use Vaapad better than Soresu, etc... they might've mastered several forms, but they have one BEST form. The one form they choose to predominantly use.

Maul's best form was Juyo. As such, if it could not overcome Obi-Wan's defenses, none of his other forms will.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Possibly equal, but Different. So you cant compare Obi-Wans fight with Greivous to Obi-Wans fight with Maul.

Actually, I can. Both use unorthodox styles utilizing multiple blades, fast, unpredictable barrages, fear (yes, fear is a weapon) and brutal hand-to-hand techniques. Of course they're different, know two fighters are the same. But as you can see, Maul and Grievous aren't exactly day and night in the difference between them.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
thats why Obi-Wan getting a power boost from his rage was never gna work.(not to mention Maul was weaker in the final fight after having fought fo so long and taken a hard hit to the back.) so you have to compare the way Obi1 was fightin before Qui-Gon died. in which case YES Maul would have killed 2 Obi1s!

You know what? Continuously stating that Maul's stamina was incredible and that his training was incredible, blablabla, works too ways. You can't say "He'll never get tired!" and subsequently say "He was tired!". It makes no sense whatsoever. The hard kick in the back? Irrelevant, Obi-Wan suffered a more serious blow. Obi-Wan fought better because, as seen multiple times, was better in fighting alone than in fighting with a team. Remember, Ataru relies on a lot of space, and they had fairly confined space; Obi-Wan had to be cautious with his blows, otherwise they might endanger his teacher.

Maul showed no signs of being tired. He fought at full capacity and was taken by surprise by the enraged Obi-Wan and could not beat him via his saber, like he did to Qui-Gon, so he chose to manipulate his senses and catch him with a force push. That does not necessarily mean he could not have overcome him, but it was obivious that Obi-Wan had the upper hand. Someone who has half of your power does NOT get the upper hand.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mate how many times do I have to explain this??? He Penetrated Qui-Gons Saber defenses whose Ataru was not only superior to PM Obi-Wan but also superior to ROTS Obi-Wans Ataru!
If you honestly think Maul was not capable of penetrating PM OBi1's defences then your living in your own world! he was outdueling him like 95% of the fight, disarming him twice... And So what if he disarmed him with a kick or Force Push! that just proves Maul has multiple ways to take out Obi-Wan and shows his vastly superior Combat skills.

Enraged, untired Obi-Wan > Tired though more masterful Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon on a regular day would be stronger, however, due to the circumstances of the fight, Obi-Wan performed more impressively.

This just supports my previous argument; Maul's Teras Kasi is the only thing that will endanger Obi-Wan. His Juyo will simply be outclassed by Obi-Wan Soresu.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And by the way theres nothing stopping him kicking ROTS Obi-Wan hard in the face as well(possibly knocking him out). If Anakin was able to get multiple kicks in, and even Asajj Ventress was able to kick him, then I dnt see whats stopping Maul whose clearly got the best Martial Arts skills.

Oh, god. When was someone knocked out due to a kick in the face? Never. So what if he got kicked? He was not DISARMED by kicks, which you fail to understand. Also, Obi-Wan kicked Anakin at least once, too, so please, don't underestimate him. I don't deny that Maul's martial art skills > Obi-Wan's, but you CAN'T win in a fight via kicks.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You see Maul has such a Wide range of skills he can just decide which of his Highly Mastered skills would be appropriate to fight Obi1. Whilst Obi-Wan best and Only hope is his Soresu. The only Saber fighting form which hes Mastered.

Difference; Obi-Wan is a better tactical fighter, mastered Soresu to a degree higher than Maul did Juyo- his best and preferred form- and was still capable of using several other styles very proficiently. Can't you simply accept that Obi-Wan's saber skills are beyond Maul's?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Really? he was the one who kept kicking, disorientating, and disarming them. they needed both of them there just to survive. So he at least matched them.

Oh, c'mon. They were forcing Maul back, who was forced to jump backwards several times and attempt to kick Obi-Wan away in order to stand a chance; he was obiviously being outclassed by the two of them at once.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yet another suggestion from you that TPM Obi-Wan was a better fighter than TPM Qui-Gon.. when its fact that he was not as good as him. and the fact that Maul penetrated Qui-Gons defence (with a SABER) is proof that he can do it to Obi-Wan. and the fact that he took Obi1 out with a kick or a push just shows his vastly superior and more wide ranged combat skills.

Obi-Wan was enraged and had better stamina and physical power than Qui-Gon. As I didn't see Maul decapacitating Obi-Wan, I think that it's proof enough that he could not do it- or at least, he did not find it easy to do it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
did he say ONLY 9's.. because i dnt remember him saying ONLY. but I think most people on these boards would agree that Dookus sword skills are better than Obi1's, so I guess that would make Dooku like an 8 and a half or sumthing.

I'm rather confident he said they were the only 9's. I think the quote was that Sidious is a 9, and Mace, Yoda and Anakin are also 9's, up there with him. Seeing as Dooku was not mentioned, I personally see it as proof that he was not a 9. Ah, yes, but many people would say that Obi-Wan's lightsaber skills are better than Anakin's, who say that his skills are better than Dooku's... you see, Dooku's style and technical prowess had an extreme advantage over Obi-Wan, and due to this, Obi-Wan could never beat him.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I remember in ROTS when Dooku takes out Obi-1 with a slight hand gesture in the middle of a saber fight with him, while simultaneously kicking Anakin away. Mauls force attacks are not THAT Masterful, hence why Dooku is a more devastating opponent than Maul.

The quote came in AOTC, when Dooku's force lightning was effortlessly blocked by Obi-Wan. I DON'T think that he impressed Obi-Wan with it that much... so thus, it was clearly his lightsaber skills- which were dominating AOTC Obi-Wan's skills- that so impressed Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Lol. Could Elite Hunter and Gideon please clarify if you think Obi or Maul will win? Thank you. xD

ROTS Obiwan beats TMP Maul with difficulty (not pwn him like some members here believe) and I have not been convinced otherwise.

Are you denying the fact that Anakin completely mastered Djem So? Don't give me that crap. He mastered it to the same degree that Obi-Wan mastered Soresu, that's why they seemed so evenly matched on Mustafar.

Sidious was a master of all the forms. Yoda was a master of all the forms. Windu was a master of all the forms, or at least most of them. Dooku, being capable of teaching Grievous the numerous forms, must have had some skill in all of the forms.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Obi-Wan was enraged and had better stamina and physical power than Qui-Gon. As I didn't see Maul decapacitating Obi-Wan, I think that it's proof enough that he could not do it- or at least, he did not find it easy to do it.

thats like saying because we saw Maul disarming Obi1 but didnt see him disarm Qui-Gon is proof he cant disarm QuiGon thats just rubbish.

Just because one time he decided to kick him, and another time push him IS NOT Proof that he Cant take him out any other way! so if he chose to kick him down the pit, instead of Pushing him, would that mean hes not Capable of Force Pushing Obi1??!! thats completely illogical!

The fact that he did it with a saber to Qui-Gon IS PROOF he can do it with a Saber to Obi1 whose Qui-Gons inferior with a Saber.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
I'm rather confident he said they were the only 9's. I think the quote was that Sidious is a 9, and Mace, Yoda and Anakin are also 9's, up there with him. Seeing as Dooku was not mentioned, I personally see it as proof that he was not a 9. Ah, yes, but many people would say that Obi-Wan's lightsaber skills are better than Anakin's, who say that his skills are better than Dooku's... you see, Dooku's style and technical prowess had an extreme advantage over Obi-Wan, and due to this, Obi-Wan could never beat him. .

well sometimes they miss people out. Lucas said you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious, even though NG called Anakin a level 9?? but still Dookus probably not a 9 in Saber skills as Anakin took him out quite comftorbly.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
The quote came in AOTC, when Dooku's force lightning was effortlessly blocked by Obi-Wan. I DON'T think that he impressed Obi-Wan with it that much... so thus, it was clearly his lightsaber skills- which were dominating AOTC Obi-Wan's skills- that so impressed Obi-Wan.

Ok but Dooku and Obi-1 are possibly both be level 8's even though Dooku is clearly Obi1's superior even in Lightsaber combat.

It was only Level 9's that NG said a fight between level 9's could go either way. So just because Dooku is a better swordsman than Maul doesnt automatically make Maul a whole Level below in NG's book.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Maul's best form was Juyo. As such, if it could not overcome Obi-Wan's defenses, none of his other forms will.

Possibly... doesnt mean Obi-1's going to deflect a Master of the deadliest form with ease. and since Obi1s not a master of Ataru or Shi-Cho its going to be difficult for Obi1 to deploy a sufficient Offensive to take Maul out. Remember hes not going to get a power boost from his rage this time. That would actually be the worst thing he could do as his best chance would be to use Soresu with a cool head.

and I still think Maul's got a chance with his martial arts. He disarmed PM Obi1 with one of his kicks, so dnt tell me his kicks are pointless! and as iv already pointed out Obi1 can get kicked during Saber fights even by ROTS.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Actually, I can. Both use unorthodox styles utilizing multiple blades, fast, unpredictable barrages, fear (yes, fear is a weapon) and brutal hand-to-hand techniques. Of course they're different, know two fighters are the same. But as you can see, Maul and Grievous aren't exactly day and night in the difference between them.

"Control Control.. You must learn Control.." Maul has much more Control over his strikes than Greivous which I think makes a BIG difference in this fight.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

You know what? Continuously stating that Maul's stamina was incredible and that his training was incredible, blablabla, works too ways. You can't say "He'll never get tired!" and subsequently say "He was tired!". It makes no sense whatsoever.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

The hard kick in the back? Irrelevant, Obi-Wan suffered a more serious blow..

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Enraged, untired Obi-Wan > Tired though more masterful Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon on a regular day would be stronger, however, due to the circumstances of the fight, Obi-Wan performed more impressively...

so therfore that final fight with Maul and Obi-Wan is irrelevant. Obi1 enraged, which ROTS Obi1 will not be, so NO power boost for him. Maul will be on top form. No big blow landing on his back, and no fighting any other Jedis before this fight.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

This just supports my previous argument; Maul's Teras Kasi is the only thing that will endanger Obi-Wan. His Juyo will simply be outclassed by Obi-Wan Soresu....

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Oh, god. When was someone knocked out due to a kick in the face? Never. So what if he got kicked? He was not DISARMED by kicks, which you fail to understand. ....

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy

Oh, c'mon. They were forcing Maul back, who was forced to jump backwards several times and attempt to kick Obi-Wan away in order to stand a chance; he was obiviously being outclassed by the two of them at once.

Mauls kick didnt just seperate them(even though that is the tactically sound thing to do) but it was a good blow which had a chance to Kill Obi1!

also look when Obi1 gets disarmed. Maul was right in the centre of both of them and was not being forced back and the 2 combatants had no excuse at that point as they wernt getting in each others way and had all the room they needed.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
thats like saying because we saw Maul disarming Obi1 but didnt see him disarm Qui-Gon is proof he cant disarm QuiGon thats just rubbish.

Just because one time he decided to kick him, and another time push him IS NOT Proof that he Cant take him out any other way! so if he chose to kick him down the pit, instead of Pushing him, would that mean hes not Capable of Force Pushing Obi1??!! thats completely illogical!

The fact that he did it with a saber to Qui-Gon IS PROOF he can do it with a Saber to Obi1 whose Qui-Gons inferior with a Saber.

No. While Qui-Gon's technical skills was well beyond Obi-Wan's, he lacked the power and rage of his younger counterpart and was thus pushed back by the same Maul who was subsequently pushed back by the inferior technical fighter. Also, let me remind you something; as dumbass Mustafar Vader proved, rage is a setback to defense, and so is Obi-Wan's Ataru. Thus, Maul's Juyo, which specializes in quickly destroying someone's defense, was incapable of penetrating Obi-Wan's defense. So... now, let's take this, shall we?

Maul's Juyo: Incapable of defeating, on its own, an enraged, young Padawan with a form weak defense.

Obi-Wan: Managed to parry Maul's 'deadliest form' Juyo strikes with the circumstances stacked up against him. He later became the greatest known master of the form best in defense. Do you now understand that Maul's Juyo is simply incapable of penetrating Obi-Wan's mastered Soresu?

His Teras Kasi will, however, pose a serious threat to Obi-Wan. On the other hand, during the course of the fight, Anakin, who was possibly physically stronger than Maul, kicked Obi-Wan in the face and we didn't see Obi-Wan take significant damage.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
sometimes they miss people out. Lucas said you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious, even though NG called Anakin a level 9?? but still Dookus probably not a 9 in Saber skills as Anakin took him out quite comftorbly.

Rofl. Anakin's saber skills alone may be a match to Sidious'- although he would probably take it in combat (referring to Sidious, since there is also a difference between 9's), but his force skills are absolutely no match to Yoda, Mace, and Sidious, the best swordsmen and force users in the Star Wars movies. See; Anakin was not at all faster or more technically skilled than the 'awesome three', except for Mace's portrayal in the movie, and had a vastly inferior command of the force in addition to being a complete idiot. You see, Anakin is just downright inferior to Yoda, Sidious, and Mace- the former two even looked just as impressive as him during the film, and that's something, considering Anakin looked extremely impressive in ROTS.

Dooku's technical skill was well beyond Anakin's, and was also dominating the fight; however, Anakin's Djem So was perfectly suited to fight Dooku's Makashi, and his rage simply allowed him to fight better. And yes, he is a greater swordsman than Dooku, but not by a lot.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ok but Dooku and Obi-1 are possibly both be level 8's even though Dooku is clearly Obi1's superior even in Lightsaber combat.

I've just proven that he isn't. Dooku's style was perfectly suited to fight Obi-Wan's, just like Anakin's style was perfectly suited to fight Dooku's... Dooku's technical skill may be vastly superior to Obi-Wan's, but as proven by NG, he is not, ultimately, a better swordsman than Obi-Wan. But due to his style's advantage, he would take Obi-Wan in most fights.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It was only Level 9's that NG said a fight between level 9's could go either way. So just because Dooku is a better swordsman than Maul doesnt automatically make Maul a whole Level below in NG's book.

Lol. This makes no sense. Dooku = 8. Maul = Less powerful than Dooku in saber combat. Dooku > Maul. Maul < 8. I'd put Maul at roughly a 7.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Possibly... doesnt mean Obi-1's going to deflect a Master of the deadliest form with ease. and since Obi1s not a master of Ataru or Shi-Cho its going to be difficult for Obi1 to deploy a sufficient Offensive to take Maul out. Remember hes not going to get a power boost from his rage this time. That would actually be the worst thing he could do as his best chance would be to use Soresu with a cool head.

and I still think Maul's got a chance with his martial arts. He disarmed PM Obi1 with one of his kicks, so dnt tell me his kicks are pointless! and as iv already pointed out Obi1 can get kicked during Saber fights even by ROTS.

I completely agree with you that Maul's Teras Kasi will be a serious match to Obi-Wan, but other than that, I don't see how he has a chance. Obi-Wan is a near master of Ataru and very proficient in Shii-Cho; as such, there's a possibility that he could pull a Grievous on him and de-hand him in a swift Soresu strike. Grievous' reflexes are far beyond Maul's, so don't tell me Maul can avoid it.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
"Control Control.. You must learn Control.." Maul has much more Control over his strikes than Greivous which I think makes a BIG difference in this fight.

See, control can actually mean the end of the fight WHEN someone can fight as fast as someone with less control. Grievous was faster, stronger, and had more sabers than Maul; it's extremely difficult to block that, and as long as Maul can't match Grievous in speed, you see that his control will mean next to nothing. Control actually matters in a fight like AOTC Anakin vs. Dooku- they're both equally faster, but Dooku's far superior control won him the fight.

And Juyo isn't all about its control, it's more about unpredictability, acrobatic techniques, and speed. Maul lacks those advantages, other than acrobatic techniques, over Grievous.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
anyone would get a bit tired after such an intense fight, and fighting 2 Jedis for so long. Your telling me if Obi-Wan went off to fight another Jedi right after he defeated Anakin that it wuldnt even put Obi1 at a littlle bit of a disadvantage???!! of course it would. if the other jedi won in Obi1's second fight it wuldnt mean that jedis bettrer than Obi1 would it?? it would prove nothing.

Maul had superb stamina, had small rest periods in the fight, and was fighting for MUCH less than Anakin and Obi-Wan. Fatigue is not a factor in such a fight. I could also claim that Dooku > Yoda, but Yoda only dominated him because Dooku was tired, which is completely false.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
thats not true. Obi-Wan had sufficient time to recover, and was just disorientated and disarmed for a few seconds. Maul landed right on his back. check the hit from Qui-Gon again. he wasnt kicked in the back!! he landed a few stories down right FLAT on his back!!! and had no time to even think about recovering as Qui-Gon was on top of him stright away. So you see this and all the intense fighting he was doing would of course effect him in his final fight with Obi1. So clearly and logically in that final fight Obi1 would have been stronger, and Maul weaker. However Maul still bested him. Now THAT says A LOT!

I've stated above percisely why fatigue is irrelevant in this matter. And Maul could not best the so drastically inferior Obi-Wan in pure saber combat; plus, the only kick Maul got in which didn't cause Obi-Wan to fall somewhere did not disarm him. Maul won due to his better control and his manipulation of Obi-Wan's senses; he would've eventually won in a saber contest, but Obi-Wan being able to match and force him back is extremely impressive in its own right.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
so therfore that final fight with Maul and Obi-Wan is irrelevant. Obi1 enraged, which ROTS Obi1 will not be, so NO power boost for him. Maul will be on top form. No big blow landing on his back, and no fighting any other Jedis before this fight.

Maul was fighting at his best, and Obi-Wan was fighting at 'beyond' his best in TPM. Obi-Wan will not have the advantage of rage, true, but that's unhelpful in defense... I've stated over and over again why Obi-Wan's saber skills are beyond Maul's. Refute that, please.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
not seen any proof that Juyo outclasses Soresu. Mauls Teras Kasi is just another tool if need be.

Obi-Wan's Soresu: Was acknowledged as being the best Soresu in the order, allowed him to fight with a notorious Jedi-hunter capable of greater speed and power than Maul, could match with Mustafar Anakin, a far greater apprentice to Sidious than Maul could ever hope to be.

Maul's Juyo: Very impressive, but incapable of taking out, on its own, an enraged Padawan who was using a form weak in defense, at least in the short term.

Do I need to say more?

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Anakin forced Obi-wan back... didnt mean much in the end did it??

Juyo is an offensive form; so is Ataru, while Soresu is defensive and Djem So offensive. It's OBIVIOUS Obi-Wan would give ground and be forced back, it's just what his form indicated, while Juyo is an offensive form.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mauls kick didnt just seperate them(even though that is the tactically sound thing to do) but it was a good blow which had a chance to Kill Obi1!

No one knows what could have happened, so we can only speculate; couldn't Obi-Wan kick him and retrieve his saber? In addition, Obi-Wan could not fight to his full extent due to Qui-Gon being there; all in all, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon is better than just Obi-Wan, but as Ataru requires plenty of space to fight... well, yeah, you get the point.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
also look when Obi1 gets disarmed. Maul was right in the centre of both of them and was not being forced back and the 2 combatants had no excuse at that point as they wernt getting in each others way and had all the room they needed.

Not really; Obi-Wan was kicked in a narrow doorway at that point, a very small space. Later, they were still forcing Maul back.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Maul's Juyo: Incapable of defeating, on its own, an enraged, young Padawan with a form weak defense.

I think your in love with Obi-Wan. too bad his jedi code wnt allow you to get intimate with him.

You actually think Force Pushing is a sign of weakness. i.e. hes done that because his Juyos not enough?????? yeah ok then so that means.......

Anakin got Dooku into an armlock because his unparalled power and Djem So was not enough...

Maul hit Qui-Gon with his Lightsaber handle because he culdnt do it with his blade...

Dooku took Anakin out with Force Lightning because he culdnt do it with his Saber...

Obi-Wan Force Pushed Greivous because he culdnt outduel him anymore..

Mace had to kick and disarm Sidious because theres no way he could have taken him with his blade..

Sidious was throwing pods at Yoda because there was nothing else he could do to him..

Do you realise how unbelievably daft your logic is yet???? Or do i need to find more examples????

and by the way Maul defeated Obi1 almost the same way he defeated Qui-Gon. First he Pushed Qui-Gon and Obi-wans saber back towards them with his saber to create an opening, and then once he had that opening, he hit Qui-Gon to disorienate and stab him, but with Obi1 he decided to use that opening he created WITH HIS BLADE to push and disarm him instead.. in a split second decision when you have an opening you can do anything, as you dnt have time to stand there and decide which attack wuld be best in this opening. Also he didnt have his huge handle to hit Obi-1 with at that point like he did to Qui-Gon.

and by the way you claim an enraged Obi1 culd pass Mauls defences but not vice versa... well after hitting his double bladed handle(which is no big blow to maul.. it just gets rid of his better weapon advantage), then they fought single saber to single saber.. and guess what? An enraged powered up Kenobi COULD NOT get past Mauls defences Saber to Saber!! and the fact that Maul used his Saber to create an opening just like he did to Qui-Gon clearly shows he Outduelled an Enraged Powered up Kenobi and clearly bested him in 35 seconds.

Since Kenobis Ataru did not improve much over the years, and an Enraged Powered up Kenobi could not pass Mauls defences, then it is very unlikely a more cool headed. ROTS Kenobi is gna pass his defences either.

And talking of defenses. You claim Kenobi was only being forced back by Anakin because thats his defensive style... well do you not think while fighting off 2 jedis Maul might be slightly on the defence as well, so will legitimately move back from time to time???

And stop giving me this padwan rubbish. we all know he was ready to be knighted in that movie so padawan was just a name at that point.

Since most your argument is based on Young Obi1s fight on Maul, I think this alone shows ROTSObi1 does not clearly outclass Maul as you seem to think. So I dnt really need to adress ALL of your other points.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Lol. This makes no sense. Dooku = 8. Maul = Less powerful than Dooku in saber combat. Dooku > Maul. Maul < 8. I'd put Maul at roughly a 7.

Your usual flawless logic! by this logic if every jedi/sith whose a little bit less goes down a whole level, then very soon wed be in minus ratings.

also just because Kenobi found Dookus style more devastating than Mauls doesnt mean Dookus lightsaber skills are more devastating than Mauls.. it just means Kenobi has a harder time against Makashi then against Juyo.

Oh and by the way Maul needs to be a high level master of Makashi and Djem So to Master his Juyo. which means if his Juyo is not effective against Kenobis Soresu then he can switch to Makashi. or Teras Kasi, or whatever works. This also shows Maul is more technically skilled than Anakin or Obi1.

and you seem to keep forgetting Greivous cant use the Force to defend himself. So no Greivous doesnt have faster reflexes than Maul, because with the help of the Force Maul can "See Things Before they Happen.." I know he took down other Jedis with Force Powers but Maul is more powerful than the vast majority of jedis.

I personally think Mauls kicks help a lot as well to take down Obi1 as he doeant seem to have much defence against this while saber fighting.. and yes Mauls kicks are better than Anakins, due to his Martial Arts.

I think iv provided more than a good argument here as to why Maul has more than just a chance here. So until you come out with something new, i dnt see the need in keep repeating myself, which I think we are both doing here to be honest.

Lets just accept that you dnt accept my arguments here nd i dnt accept yours, so theres no point in us both carrying on pointlessly rambling and repeating ourselves.

anyone can read them all (if thery really bored) and make up there own mind.

Where the hell is it conclusive that Skywalker was physically stronger than Maul? Have you seen Maul? And even if we were to consent to that, I know of hundreds of people who are physically stronger than the likes of Jet Li and Bruce Lee -- but Li and Lee would still tear their shit up in an actual fight.

I'm a purple belt in Taekwondo and I can tell you that, in 9 cases out of 10, great technique > great strength.