Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
...Can you prove that? >.>
That he was using his anger. Well let's see he watches his master die and was powerless to do this and screams no.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Obiwan said this on page 29 of the jedi vs sith guide:When the last door lifted, I gave into my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me,actually fed off my fury,gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me......
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
sure, kid, I believe you. he just got cocky, and when maul gets cocky he kinda freezes and stands absolutely still for about 3 seconds while a padawan jumps over him and slices him in half. Either is so cocky he thinks obi wan will jump too high and hit his head on the roof, and then fall down behind him, or hes stupid, and this would just be exploited over and over and over.The thing with the inconscistency im talking about is that he killed anoon bondara, and then got kicked down a shaft by a padawan!!
Obi-Wan was just lucky that Qui-Gons lightsaber was there... Qui-gons lightsaber is not always gna convieniently be there for him is it?? what could Obi-Wan have possibly done if Qui-Gon wasnt there?? urm nothing... he was absolutely pawned... completely and utterly.. oh but Obi-Wan split Mauls lightsaber in 2 and kicked him to the ground!!! who cares?? that was the only hit Obi-Wan ever got on Maul the whole fight, and then Maul just got right back up and pawned him!
and yes Obi-Wan was getting tired... if you cant see that then your just in denial... it was obvious, he gave it everything his anger could give him.
ROTS Obi-Wan beats Maul (one of the greatest Sith Apprentices of all time) with a lot of difficulty. Whilst Maul absolutely pawns TPM Obi-Wan. This is just fact. its obvious to anyone whose seen TPM... im not being biased here at all. Obi-Wan was not even a match for Qui-Gon in TPM.. who got pawned by Maul.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan was not even a match for Qui-Gon in TPM
Prove it.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan was just lucky that Qui-Gons lightsaber was there... Qui-gons lightsaber is not always gna convieniently be there for him is it?? what could Obi-Wan have possibly done if Qui-Gon wasnt there?? urm nothing... he was absolutely pawned... completely and utterly.. oh but Obi-Wan split Mauls lightsaber in 2 and kicked him to the ground!!! who cares?? that was the only hit Obi-Wan ever got on Maul the whole fight, and then Maul just got right back up and pawned him!
Don't give in to your anger... anger leads to hate, hate... leads to suffering.
Jk.
Anyways, back to reality now; I'm not sure Obi-Wan would be "completely pawned" (pawned, by the way, is something like auctioned... it's correctly spelled 'pwned', actually. xD). Right then, if you would notice, the ONLY blows Maul got on Obi-Wan was kicking, and the force push. He didn't get any close to him with his saber- in fact, even when Maul was using a double saber, he couldn't penetrate Obi-Wan's defense, which seemed to effortlessly parry his attacks. Oh, yeah, why do you keep insisting on saying "Maul pwned him!"? All evidence actually see it as Maul barely managing to get Kenobi off of him with that force push. Please...
If the duel was one even ground, it'd be CLOSER. See, Maul disarmed Obi-Wan twice during the course of the duel; both times, he sent Obi-Wan falling down a ledge. Now, imagine a similar duel; but this time, Maul's kicks only send Obi-Wan knocked backwards rather than disarm him. Obi-Wan destroyed Maul's weapon; he got close to sabering him, something that Maul did not achieve during the fight. He didn't even come close to killing him with some blow.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and yes Obi-Wan was getting tired... if you cant see that then your just in denial... it was obvious, he gave it everything his anger could give him.
I think you're the one in denial. Can't you see the fact that everyone here AGREES that he was getting somewhat tired near the end? Not really tired, but somewhat tired... yet you insist on believing everyone here thinks "lol Obi-Wan pwned him" in a fair fight. Oh, by the way...anger isn't always useful. Anakin used anger, too, and see where it got him, no? I'm talking about him fighting Obi.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
ROTS Obi-Wan beats Maul (one of the greatest Sith Apprentices of all time) with a lot of difficulty. Whilst Maul absolutely pawns TPM Obi-Wan. This is just fact. its obvious to anyone whose seen TPM... im not being biased here at all.
Err... lol. I saw TPM, everyone here saw TPM... and you still seem to be on a minority. Nobody accused you of being biased; you're entitled to your own opinion, fair and square. You just repeat arguments on and on while ignoring what we say... 'a lot of difficulty"? Don't exaggerrate, please. 'One of the strongest sith apprentices in history?' Vague. But, despite many people saying that the Old Sith are the strongest, I'm of the opinion that the modern sith are far superior to the old sith. Aka Marka Ragnos, Revan, etc... and so are the Jedi. I don't see Maul comparing with Mustafar Vader. As the movies progressed, Sidious' sith apprentices got more annd more powerful- first Maul, then Dooku, then Sidious and pre-suit Vader... if pre-suit Vader was anything like Maul, why would Sidious have any interest replacing Maul? It was said Sidious foresaw Maul's demise. It could only because he opted for a stronger apprentice, which he got, in the form of Anakin. And as Obi-Wan beat Anakin... well, I think he'll beat Maul too. Without a lot of difficulty, but certainly not a walk in the park.
hate to jump in like this: but i do think maul controlled his duel with the two Jedi on naboo. Maul beat qui gonn, and until you can prove that TPM obi-wan was a match for qui gonn, you can't say he was. sorry, but burden of proof is with you. Qui gonn was a master, capable of sitting on the council, Obi-wan was an apprentice. If you can't prove they were on the same level, i'm not accepting it.
Maul disarmed Obi-wan. You said it would have been closer, had he not fallen over a ledge, and that is incorrect, had he not fallen down a ledge, you would have had obi-wan lying on his back getting skewered by maul. Falling down the second ledge saved his life.
Synopsis:
Maul versus TPM kenobi rematch= Maul wins easily.
Maul versus ROTS kenobi= Kenobi wins even easier than maul won the one above.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Prove it.
someones already given the proof for that. TPM Novel describes Obi-Wan as "Not yet Qui-Gons equal.." not that it needs to be proved.. if Obi-Wan was equal to Qui-Gon then he wuldnt have got left behind in the fight.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Don't give in to your anger... anger leads to hate, hate... leads to suffering.Jk.
am trying to keep on the light side here.. lol
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Anyways, back to reality now; I'm not sure Obi-Wan would be "completely pawned" (pawned, by the way, is something like auctioned... it's correctly spelled 'pwned', actually. xD). Right then, if you would notice, the ONLY blows Maul got on Obi-Wan was kicking, and the force push. He didn't get any close to him with his saber- in fact, even when Maul was using a double saber, he couldn't penetrate Obi-Wan's defense, which seemed to effortlessly parry his attacks. Oh, yeah, why do you keep insisting on saying "Maul pwned him!"? All evidence actually see it as Maul barely managing to get Kenobi off of him with that force push. Please....
kick and force push's shows whose dominating the fight.. and is the first step to slicing them with your blade.. as we see with Maul vs. Qui-Gon.. he first hits him with the handle in the head and then takes the opening to kill him. Obi-Wan only got in that one hit the whole fight... and that was Obi-Wan much more angry than Maul(at that point) and Maul still got up and carried on fighting.. Maul got in plenty of hits which would have finished Obi-Wan off if not for Qui-Gon.
and yes in that final fight Obi-Wan gave it everything and put up a good fight. but it was still a relatively short fight in comparison to most lightsaber battles. and by the way that Force Push... it was more like a Force Flick! Lol! Maul owned at that point.. I dnt see any evidenc pointing to the contrary.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
If the duel was one even ground, it'd be CLOSER. See, Maul disarmed Obi-Wan twice during the course of the duel; both times, he sent Obi-Wan falling down a ledge. Now, imagine a similar duel; but this time, Maul's kicks only send Obi-Wan knocked backwards rather than disarm him. Obi-Wan destroyed Maul's weapon; he got close to sabering him, something that Maul did not achieve during the fight. He didn't even come close to killing him with some blow.....
actually the second time Maul disarmed Obi-Wan his lightsaber fell out of his hand before he fell down the shaft.. and he culdnt stop himself rolling down.. so on even ground Obi-Wan still would have been on the floor with some distance between him and his lightsaber. Whilst Maul was standing on top of him Lightsaber ignited. So ill let you figure out what would have happened next.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
'a lot of difficulty"? Don't exaggerrate, please. 'One of the strongest sith apprentices in history?' Vague.
well if you prove to me Obi-Wan can win without a lot of difficulty, then i might agree with you. but you have to prove it first. becuase as far as I can see youve got "the Master of Soresu" vs. a Master of Juyo, therfore also a high level master of several other forms, someone whose been trained by Sidious from day 1 to be a jedi killer, mixed various martial arts into his combat technique and very apt in using a single blade or double bladed weapon. Not saying your wrong about ROTS obi-Wan beating him without too much effort. just saying provide arguments/proof/eveidence to back this up, and then I might start believing it.
and about Maul being one of the best Sith Apprentices in history, is usually what Maul bios say about him.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
I don't see Maul comparing with Mustafar Vader. As the movies progressed, Sidious' sith apprentices got more annd more powerful- first Maul, then Dooku, then Sidious and pre-suit Vader...
I dnt see Maul being a match for pre-suit Vader either. but remember Dooku pwned Obi-Wan who in turn got beaten by pre-suit Anakin. so the A>B>C argument doesnt work here.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
someones already given the proof for that. TPM Novel describes Obi-Wan as "Not yet Qui-Gons equal.." not that it needs to be proved.. if Obi-Wan was equal to Qui-Gon then he wuldnt have got left behind in the fight.
Understood. I didn't read the novel ^^.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
kick and force push's shows whose dominating the fight.. and is the first step to slicing them with your blade.. as we see with Maul vs. Qui-Gon.. he first hits him with the handle in the head and then takes the opening to kill him. Obi-Wan only got in that one hit the whole fight... and that was Obi-Wan much more angry than Maul(at that point) and Maul still got up and carried on fighting.. Maul got in plenty of hits which would have finished Obi-Wan off if not for Qui-Gon.
Not necessarily. Even more than Vader, Maul is an angry person; he is a bloodthirsty beast, as described by Dooku, and note the eagerness in his voice when he says "At last, we shall have revenge...". Maul was extremely intent on killing his opponent, which is the Sith way. Measuring their levels of anger won't do.
Ah- what's easier to land, a kick, or a lightsaber blow? A kick was only shown to have a meaningful effect on a fight during Sidious vs. Mace. Please. Kicks do not indicate superiority.
Anakin kicked Obi-Wan several times in the fight, and who won?
Dooku effortlessly kicked Anakin when he force-grabbed Obi-Wan, but who won the fight?
You see my point, I hope; kicks do not necessarily display superiory to an opponent, as do force pushes. Also, remember; Obi-Wan's kick, unlike Maul's later kick (when he kicked him after the single lightsaber barrage) knocked Maul on the FLOOR. Obi-Wan was simply knocked backwards. It's true Obi-Wan's anger played a valid factor; but anger merely gives you a more intense desire to win. It's harnessed anger- like Sidious' and Dooku's- which unlocks more abilities, like Force Lightning, while simple rage will only get you to WANT to kill your opponent more.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and yes in that final fight Obi-Wan gave it everything and put up a good fight. but it was still a relatively short fight in comparison to most lightsaber battles. and by the way that Force Push... it was more like a Force Flick! Lol! Maul owned at that point.. I dnt see any evidenc pointing to the contrary.
Qui-Gon vs. Maul was shorter. Now, you know what? I'll pull off my speciality and show you a step-by step analysis of the fight to root my opinion better.
Step One- First Engagement: During this part, Obi-Wan leapt out of the weird pinky shield and attacked Maul wirh a few strikes, who quickly retaliated with his own, both pushing the other somewhat; they seem to be dead equal during this part, but Obi-Wan's rage just grows.
Step Two- Kenobi's Upper Hand: Maul strikes Obi-Wan a few times, who simply blocks easily and begins pushing forward, striking Maul brutally and viciously, driving him back and eventually cutting his weapon in half through and opening in his defense.
Step Three- Obi-Wan's Incapacitation: Obi-Wan leaps at Maul, who blocks and retreats. Obi-Wan runs up to him, and Maul launches a barrage, ending with a kick to Kenobi's face- Obi merely leaps and continues the assault, once again causing Maul to retreat, afterwards pulling off several strikes at Maul, engaging in a saberlock. Maul breaks it and pushed Obi away.
Now, as you see from this analysis, Maul has actually at no point shown himself to be SUPERIOR to Obi-Wan; rather, Obi-Wan had the advantage for most of the duel, although Maul did overpower him with the 'force flick'. Please. It was a force push like any other. Is that enough evidence pointing to the contrary now?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
actually the second time Maul disarmed Obi-Wan his lightsaber fell out of his hand before he fell down the shaft.. and he culdnt stop himself rolling down.. so on even ground Obi-Wan still would have been on the floor with some distance between him and his lightsaber. Whilst Maul was standing on top of him Lightsaber ignited. So ill let you figure out what would have happened next.
In theory, Obi-Wan would simply use the force to retrieve his saber and continue fighting. Also, a similar scenario; during the Dooku fight in ROTS, Obi was force pushed in a similar manner by Dooku, and did not lose his saber. Now then- let's compare Maul to Dooku, shall we? Dooku is an experienced, and legendary Jedi Master whose strength in the force is surpassed by a select few. Maul is not one of them.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
well if you prove to me Obi-Wan can win without a lot of difficulty, then i might agree with you. but you have to prove it first. becuase as far as I can see youve got "the Master of Soresu" vs. a Master of Juyo, therfore also a high level master of several other forms, someone whose been trained by Sidious from day 1 to be a jedi killer, mixed various martial arts into his combat technique and very apt in using a single blade or double bladed weapon. Not saying your wrong about ROTS obi-Wan beating him without too much effort. just saying provide arguments/proof/eveidence to back this up, and then I might start believing it.and about Maul being one of the best Sith Apprentices in history, is usually what Maul bios say about him.
I dnt see Maul being a match for pre-suit Vader either. but remember Dooku pwned Obi-Wan who in turn got beaten by pre-suit Anakin. so the A>B>C argument doesnt work here.
Okay, let's quit analyzing the TPM Duel and move on to Obi-Wan vs. Maul later on ^^. If you're referring to the Databank, I see nothing of the sort on it. Or could you direct me somewhere else? Thank you.
Now for an argument... no problem. In his fight against Maul- as I've proven above, they were most definetly evenly matched (though it was only because Obi-Wan was using his anger), but at that point, Obi-Wan was using Ataru- the same lightsaber form utilized by Yoda. However, at that point, Obi-Wan, despite being proficient in it, WAS NOT A MASTER in the usage of Ataru. If he coudl use an umastered form and some anger to match with martial arts, Juyo, Double-Lightsaber Maul, I'm pretty confident Obi-Wan's later incarnation will also succeed. Thirteen years after this incident- Obi-Wan has become the greatest known master of another form, Soresu, mastering it to the highest possible degree. He was capable of handling barrages from Anakin, Grievous, and other extremely vicious and aggressive fighters- something that fits Maul's description, no? He fights similarly to these people.
Hence the ABC argument. If, say, Kenobi pwned Dooku and Dooku pwned Maul, I wouldn't use ABC, because Dooku fights entirely differently than Maul. However, Maul fights similarly to Anakin, with a headstrong, somewhat flamboyant and aggressive style. It's these styles that Soresu was created to be the counter of, along with blaster technology- and thus, I see it as Obi-Wan's Soresu, aside from being on a totally different tier than his TPM Ataru, being the perfect counter to Maul's version of Juyo (but maybe not Sidious' version of it).
Now, you used a list of Maul's skills... I'll use some of Kenobi's too, alright? He still has his Ataru skills, using them for offense occasionally, as seen in his fight against Vader. He has knowledge of Shii-Cho, so much that he managed to dupe Dooku, a far more experienced and seasoned combatant than Maul, to think he was using a mixture of it and Ataru- effective, isn't it? He also has knowledge, as indicated by his usage of the high ground, of Sokan, a technique designed to learn how to take the environment to one's own advantage. He was acknowledged by Mace Windu, second only to Yoda (arguably) in terms of lightsaber skills as an incredible master of the simple and powerful Soresu.
Is that enough? Is there any indication Maul would be capable of standing against Obi-Wan without being delimbed and disarmed thirty second into the fight? I don't think so.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Obi-Wan was just lucky that Qui-Gons lightsaber was there... Qui-gons lightsaber is not always gna convieniently be there for him is it?? what could Obi-Wan have possibly done if Qui-Gon wasnt there?? urm nothing... he was absolutely pawned... completely and utterly..
... are you... are you serious?
You DO realize that Maul was one foot away from the edge, right? What Obi-Wan did... was merciful. He sliced Maul in half so that he wouldn't be alive for the free fall. What Obi-Wan COULD have done was front flip over Maul... then just push him. Maul would have fallen to his death, and been alive for the entire fall.
Qui-Gon's lightsaber wasn't even necessary. As soon as Maul walked up to the edge he was doomed. The fool put himself in the worst possible strategic position.
And yeah, Maul was quite literally fighting for his freaking life by the time Obi-Wan fell into the pit. And considering that throughout the entire match Obi_Wan's guard with the lightsaber was never broken... whereas Maul's was... I'd say that's something.
Besides his loss against the Count in AotC, has Obi-Wan's guard ever been penetrated? I can't remember. I think it has once before but I can't remember who did it.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Is that enough? Is there any indication Maul would be capable of standing against Obi-Wan without being delimbed and disarmed thirty second into the fight? I don't think so.
Called one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history of a title that dates back to the ancient of Simus training Sadow.
The best lightsaber duelist prior to TPM realized he could not have beaten him and had to try a suicidal technique. And Anoon's apprentice who has beaten Obiwan (shortly before TPM) in training duels tried a similar technique.
After originally being brought to his knee by force lightning from a force witch and killed her while he still was being shocked.
While he still had an injured leg he fought Qui-gon and obiwan and he killed "one of the most able duelists in the order" in Qui-gon Jinn and unarmed Obiwan and had him hanging for his life.
Single handedly killed the vigos of the Black Sun.
Shown incredibly fast reflexes in shadow hunter. He has been trained in the martial arts, and is probably physically stronger than Obiwan.
Trained by the most powerful sith lord in history.
The Dark Side Sourcebook-Darth Maul
"Darth Maul was taken offworld and indoctrinated into the ways of the dark side, trained by Darth Sidious in not only Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts. Any display of fear on his part was punished with vicious retribution. Any hint of mercy in his character was rewarded with severe cruelty. One those rare occasions when he relaxed his guard, his master nearly killed him to remind him that a Sith can never afford a moment of rest. After years of this kind of treatment, Darth Maul was absolutely ruthless-a perfect Sith weapon. By the
time he reached adolescence, Darth Maul was already a hardened, remorseless killer."
Dark Side Sourcebook -Darth Maul
"Maul's final test as a Sith apprentice occurred on an isolated Outer Rim World. Abandoned there by Darth Sidious, he was told that he had to survive on his own until Sidious returned a month later, all
the while being hunted by hordes of deadly assassin droids. Maul fought as best as he could, but exhaustion and hunger finally took their toll, and one of the tireless droids finally wounded him badly enough that he felt he could not go on. At that point, Darth Sidious returned and challenged his apprentice to a lightsaber duel, telling Maul that he had secretly been training a second apprentice in case Maul failed his final test-which, by failing to kill Sidious in the duel, he just had. Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all."
Though the latter statement is a more of a stretch he was able to take Sidious by surprise with the ferocity of his attacks and at one point was able to bite Sidious.
Then the resurrection Maul was able to almost kill Vader but even though it was way after after tpm it is still a worthy point.
So yea the idea that Maul dies in 30 seconds is a very hard one to swallow.
Oh and Blax didn't Ventress get pass his defense?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
(one of the greatest Sith Apprentices of all time) with a lot of difficulty. Whilst Maul absolutely pawns TPM Obi-Wan. This is just fact. its obvious to anyone whose seen TPM... im not being biased here at all. Obi-Wan was not even a match for Qui-Gon in TPM.. who got pawned by Maul.
wow, says who? quantify and substantiate. who says he's one of the greatest, what source? This is what i mean when i say that "one of the greatest" is given to every tom dick and harry in star wars. One of the greatest in a countdown of what, the top 2000 sith lords? its so unspecific and generic.
why does he take him with alot of difficulty? TPM got 2 good hits in that fight on maul and ultimately survived a direct confrontation with "one of the greatest sith apprentices of all time", 20 years later, whos to say this isn't easy for him? Quantify and substantiate!
Yes, maul gets him down the shaft, but then kenobi kills him, he got cocky, which is bad dueling. Everyone who gets cocky when they have the enemy down in star wars gets killed (maul died twice because of this, anakin got turned into a cyborg, and sideous fell down a botomless pit). And he has gotten cocky in a respective 2 out of 3 lightsaber duels. HE has a conscistency for getting cocky when he has "pawned" his enemy, and then getting noobslapped around!
I don't totally disagree that he "pawned" obi wan when he wasn't cocky, but you must remember, after "pawning" ROTS obi wan (if he could) hes probably going to do something stupid like in TPM and Star Wars Visionaries.
Obi wan isn't a match for maul in tpm. You are right, but he got hits in on him while still in padawn status!
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
why does he take him with alot of difficulty? TPM got 2 good hits in that fight on maul and ultimately survived a direct confrontation with "one of the greatest sith apprentices of all time", 20 years later, whos to say this isn't easy for him?
2 good hits? just the one during their duel.. if your talking about pre-suit Vader, then the A<B<C argument clearly doesnt work.. because Obi-Wan was no match for Dooku whom that Anakin beat.
If your talking about machine Vader, well Clone Maul faught him and almost defeated him.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Yes, maul gets him down the shaft, but then kenobi kills him, he got cocky, which is bad dueling.
well it was his overconfidence that lead to his death, but I wuldnt call it bad duelling, as the actual lightsaber duel had finished.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Everyone who gets cocky when they have the enemy down in star wars gets killed (maul died twice because of this, anakin got turned into a cyborg, and sideous fell down a botomless pit). And he has gotten cocky in a respective 2 out of 3 lightsaber duels. HE has a conscistency for getting cocky when he has "pawned" his enemy, and then getting noobslapped around!
I agree.. Luke says to Sidious in ROTJ "Your overconfidence is your weakness.." this was the Siths biggest weakness. but all the Siths.. not just Darth Maul.
and yes i get it.. its not "pawned"
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
Obi wan isn't a match for maul in tpm. You are right, but he got hits in on him while still in padawn status!
yeah i agree Obi-Wan did well in that last fight. a sign of the great jedi hes going to become. but remember he wasnt exactly a novice. padawan was just a status... he was ready to be knighted.