well his point is correct.
Turning to the darkside to save the one you love and killing her in the process=dumb mistake.
however this is not only a mistake, its also a lack of relfexes and skill. i mean, maul had his saber open. all he would have had to do is move it a bit and he would have lived. unfortunately, nobody sees it this way. They see it as poor innocent maul getting surprised that a padawan could jump up and hit him!!!
Agreed.
People also need to understand that getting surprised is, in fact, another reason why his dueling ability is not as good as it can be. Letting your guard down, and then getting killed because of it, reflects poorly on your judgment and perception.
As far as just debates go, where ones personality does not come into play, he's a vicious beast with extreme skill. In reality, he's an arrogant fool who can be manipulated into a false sense of security, and destroyed. Another thing that fight showed is that Maul doesn't adapt well. Once Obi-Wan got pissed off and started fighting with his full potential Maul was surprised, but he never adapted. If he was so much better then Obi-Wan he should have adapted to his fighting style in seconds even if he was surprised initially, and won the lightsaber duel. He did not. They exchanged blows, and then separated. Obi-Wan was going toe-to-toe with him for around seven seconds (long time in a duel). By this point in the duel:
[/img]
Maul should have realized that Obi-Wan was fighting much harder and much better then he was before, and that he would have to up his own game in order to contend. That's what a vastly superior fighter would have done. Maul did not. Instead, this happened:
He was put on his ass, and then forced to retreat.
From there they fight and Obi-Wan is holding his own quite fine, then Maul gets the force push in. At that point it's arguable whither or not Obi-Wan would have won had there not been a pit there. I'm under the impression he would have.
You're left with two conclusions, really.
A) Obi-Wan even as a apprentice really was just that good.
or
B) Maul has trouble adapting to new situations. He failed to adapt to Obi-Wan's increase in skill and he failed to adapt to Obi-Wan leaping over him and chopping him in half.
You could argue that both times he just got cocky and it killed him, but that just goes to show that he's even more of a dumbass, because if this persn has already put you on your ass and almost killed you due to your arrogance before, why drop your guard again? Because this time he's in a pit? He has "no chance"? It really isn't all that different then when you had slain his master and you thought he was done for. Obviously the kid has skill, obviously he's resourceful. Why let your guard down again?
Because your a fool. And really, this is why it's true that most of the lightsiders > darksiders in Star Wars in skill, because the majority of the darksiders are cocky bastards. If they weren't cocky, they'd be vastly more skillled fighters. Instead they're overconfident clowns.
Again, this is just my own opinion on the matter. There is tons of ridiculous canon and quotes that I'm sure will be brought up to negate everything I just said. But, whatever.
well the pics are cannon, and they reflect on exactly what you say. Maul didn't adapt, and kept letting his guard down, like 3 times. he refused or was unable to up his game. So, when he decided to be stupid, and put down his lightsaber again, and then leave it down when kenobi started jumping, is just proof that maul has horns for brains. WHy didn't he just shoot his fingers or force them so that he had to let go of the little thing that kenobi was holding onto? becauase he is an idiot. he pranced around and then didn't adapt when obi wan jumped. Maul had been a skilled beast, but a beast nonetheless-- count dooku
I can see sideous looking at maul and thinking "omg, i wish this guy knew some three syllable words. I am the master manipulator, and i gotta put up with this?" then maul burps, and mutters in single syllables about how the Jedi will pay while scratching his crack.....
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
And Hunters point is that it'd be a double standard to say Maul's an idiot for that mistake he made in TPM, considering many people made dumb mistakes throughout the movies.
I don't think I ever said anything about Maul being smart or not, but if you want to talk about it then Maul made 2 serious mistakes and both cost him his life. It is worth noting that in both mistake were where he was over confident and died cause of it. Though in every other material Maul was never over confident and pretty much was the silent assassin in every battle. All that being sad I don't seem Maul getting overconfident here because he will never be in a serious position to even taunt or boast his "superiority" to ROTS Obiwan and will never have him on the brink of death.
Originally posted by Faunus
The movie disagrees. The novel depicted a fight that was completely different in every manner save for the conclusion, and greatly favored the duo, while the movie had them getting tossed around like idiots until the end. No, Dooku wasn't having very much trouble at all.
Yeah? The only thing I personally remember is Dooku getting thrown backwards, placing him on the retreat for the entire of the duo fight; now then... fighting styles come into question...
One might argue; "Obi-Wan was going backwards in his fight against Anakin, but he won." If that's an indication of losing, than how could Obi-Wan have won!
No. Dooku's a user of Form II: Makashi, which largely depends upon a mixture of offense and defense; it's a very versatile style, very effective in saber-on-saber combat... but, seeing as Dooku was forced into defending almost entirely against the duo, it would be an indication- supported by the novel, that he was overmatched by the two of them.
Dooku managed to land a force attack on Kenobi in order to better defend himself; it worked. Great for him, lol... but the matter is he used it to avoid being overpowered.
Previousi posts were correct; Maul vs. Obi-Wan was pretty even, and Maul did nothing to adjust his style, effectively establishing him as a fight-idiot. Obi-Wan's style is, shall we say, anti-idiots... see, Kenobi's greatest victories (arguably) were against Maul and Anakin. They were both idiots. Kenobi exploited a mistake they made in order to strike them down. Of course, people could say Grievous isn't an idiot (he really isn't), but he was beaten via Obi-Wan using the force, superior swordsmanship, and Grievous being previously injured.
That was a very intelligent comment regarding the Sith's overconfident usually leading to their falls; the Sith are, ultimately (with the exception of RotJ Vader) defeated via their overconfidence, not due to their lack of skill... they would pwn the Jedi if they were cool fighters like Obi-Wan 😛 . But hey, everyone's gotta have a weakness...
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I don't think I ever said anything about Maul being smart or not, but if you want to talk about it then Maul made 2 serious mistakes and both cost him his life. It is worth noting that in both mistake were where he was over confident and died cause of it. Though in every other material Maul was never over confident and pretty much was the silent assassin in every battle. All that being sad I don't seem Maul getting overconfident here because he will never be in a serious position to even taunt or boast his "superiority" to ROTS Obiwan and will never have him on the brink of death.
Bah. Fair enough. >.>
again your all missing that Maul had been fighting for ages.. whilst Obi-Wan had been out of the fight for ages.. and Obi-Wan saw his master die, and so went completely full out on Maul.. and Maul took it, and survived it.. and then toards the end of the duel you can CLEARLY see that Obi-Wan has given it everything, but is now tiring.. there was no sign of Maul tiring, and he had complete control when he Force pushed Obi-Wan.. he even did it with a smile if I remember correctly.
and this talk of Maul not adapting is nonesense. he did adapt, thats why he won the duel. and the whole duel only lasted like half a minute.. a very intense half a minute yes.. but still a relatively short time.
If the pit wasnt there Maul had still won, because Obi-Wan took a hard hit and his lightsaber fell out of his hand.
and look, about Obi-Wans jump... the only reason Maul just stood there staring at him was because as far as Maul knew Obi-Wan didnt have a weapon. so Maul was just thinking "wtf is he doing???"
Lets not forget Maul had the complete Vertical High Ground.. so if he was expecting any kind of serious attack, theres absolutely NO WAY Obi-Wan could have taken him. he had a much better strategic position over Obi-Wan than ObiWan had over Anakin in ROTS.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
again your all missing that Maul had been fighting for ages.. whilst Obi-Wan had been out of the fight for ages..
... so? He fell at least 50+ feet, jumped back up the 50+ feet, sprinted to catch up, then sat there literally wigging out for four minutes maybe then Qui-Gon was killed and he wigged out even more. He never had time to slow down, even if his body wasn't moving his mind was moving at a mile a minute.
[quote[and Obi-Wan saw his master die, and so went completely full out on Maul.. [/quote]
What he did, was unleash his potential.
and Maul took it, and survived it..
Apparently not, considering Obi-Wan went home to become one of the greatest Jedi ever and Maul's festering at the bottom of an energy shaft, having only his severed lower torso for company.
[quote[and then toards the end of the duel you can CLEARLY see that Obi-Wan has given it everything, but is now tiring.. there was no sign of Maul tiring, [/quote]
Prove it. Didn't seem clear to me. Maul never looks tired or beaten. Even when he was chopped in half he still had his game face on. Looking pissed off and indifferent is what he's trained to do. And Obi-Wan didn't look tired to me either. He looked focused.
and he had complete control when he Force pushed Obi-Wan.. he even did it with a smile if I remember correctly.
He didn't smile until he kicked his lightsaber down the shaft, I'm pretty sure. And prove he was "in control". He looked pretty frantic to me.
and this talk of Maul not adapting is nonesense. he did adapt, thats why he won the duel.
He didn't "win: anything. He spent the first half of the fight getting his ass kicked, I.E., getting his lightsaber chopped in half and then put on his ass, then he got lucky with the force push, then he got chopped in half, like a douche’. A duel “ends” when your opponent stops fighting back. Hence, it ended when Maul fell down the energy shaft cleaved in two.
and the whole duel only lasted like half a minute.. a very intense half a minute yes... but still a relatively short time.
Considering most of the lightsaber fights in the PT only last a couple minutes’ tops, it wasn’t that short.
If the pit wasnt there Maul had still won, because Obi-Wan took a hard hit and his lightsaber fell out of his hand.
So? Jedi fall down and lose there lightsabers all the time. It happened to Maul moments before, it happened to Anakin in Rots as well.
and look, about Obi-Wans jump... the only reason Maul just stood there staring at him was because as far as Maul knew Obi-Wan didnt have a weapon. so Maul was just thinking "wtf is he doing???"
Why would you think that? One of the biggest rules in a fight is to never let your opponent get behind you. Especially when you’re standing [i]two freakin’ inches from an energy shaft”. One good push would have sent him falling to his doom. Obi-Wan wouldn’t even have needed his lightsaber to kill him at that point.
Lets not forget Maul had the complete Vertical High Ground.. so if he was expecting any kind of serious attack, theres absolutely NO WAY Obi-Wan could have taken him. he had a much better strategic position over Obi-Wan than ObiWan had over Anakin in ROTS.
Obviously there was a way for Obi_Wan to have taken him. Because he did. Maul failed to take into account Obi-Wan’s 1337 skills, and he paid the price for it. Sloppy.
If I was fighting someone and they put me on my ass and embarrassed me once before, I wouldn’t take him lightly. Obi_Wan did in 6 seconds what Qui-Gon attempted to do but failed in four minutes of fighting. Once I had Obi-Wan where I wanted him I Would have ended it immediately. I wouldn’t try to monologue like an idiot.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
So just to clarify?? do you think Maul overpowered Kenobi or not??
'Overpowered' and 'overpowering' are completely different things. 'Overpowered' means that someone did successfully overpower the other in a single instant, while 'overpowering' is more along the likes of having the upper hand and overpowering the opponent over time.
The fact that I stated that Maul both legitimately overpowered Obi-Wan and that he wasn't overpowering Obi-Wan aren't contradictory. See, I'll give you an example; during Dooku vs. Yoda, Yoda was overpowering Dooku, but since he failed to overpower him, he didn't win. So yeah; Maul beat Obi-Wan in the 'Saber match', but they were pretty much even for the duration of the fight.
Oh, and by the way... Maul's Juyo, albeit energetic, is no where near as tiring as Obi-Wan's and Qui-Gon's Ataru styles. Besides, Obi-Wan was the one getting kicked around, falling backwards and leaping up hundreds of feet in the air... I don't think stamina should be a factor in this situation; Maul was clearly not tired one bit, although Obi-Wan- due in part to his sudden and excessive use of the dark side and due to his energetic style- was somewhat tired near the end. Maul, during the fight, did not show ANY sign of being tired.
The taunting thing... Obi-Wan won, through being faster than his overconfident open. In the movie, Obi-Wan landed in front of Maul and sliced him, actually giving Maul sufficient time to light up his saber and defend. But he didn't. Why? Maybe he was shocked, surprised...
Anyway. Your whole arguments seem to be deciding the Maul was stronger than Obi-Wan. But really, I don't think anyone's denying it at this point. We're simply trying to prove that Obi-Wan is close to Maul enough that in a straight match, Maul would win, but won't WTFpwn Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by Blax_Hydralisk
What he did, was unleash his potential.
No, he was using the darkside and had he not used the darkside he would have never broke Maul's saber,etc. There is a difference from using the darkside and unleashing your full potential or even part of it. Obiwan was using his anger against Maul not his "hidden potential" thta would eventually make him an uber duelist.
Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Anyway. Your whole arguments seem to be deciding the Maul was stronger than Obi-Wan. But really, I don't think anyone's denying it at this point. We're simply trying to prove that Obi-Wan is close to Maul enough that in a straight match, Maul would win, but won't WTFpwn Obi-Wan.
Funny how Obiwan was only a challenge for Maul when he was using the darkside which is something under normal circumstance a jedi never uses. That's like saying that ROTS Luke wouldn't get pwned if Vader was trying all out from the start and had he not used the darkside to beat him in the saber duel. Maul's accomplishments speak for themselves (please don't ask me to post them all again) there is not enough evidence to even say that Obiwan prior to using the darkside could compete with someone who defeated Qui-gon, Bondara and even surprised the hell out of one Darth Sidious and ntm he was called "one of the deadliest sith apprentices in history" in which the title dates back to Simus training Naga Sadow. TPM Obiwan gets loses pretty badly.
but maul was using the darkside and rage and crap like that too. And kenobi backs him up and cuts his saber up! Maybe the eu maul and the movie maul are an inconscistency?
since this is TPM maul, and not comic book maul, i am taking the side of the maul who got spanked by a padawan.
Maybe it is debateable that he got overpowered by obi wan, but do you think that 20 years later, after becoming the master of the greatest lightsaber form (according to windu), and taking out anakin, that this tips the scales totally in Kenobi's favor. THink about it for a second. If Kenobi didn't force maul back, then they were pretty evenly matched. 20 years of experience and training later, Kenobi would CLEARLY take this.
Those who take maul's part are apparently only defending and explaining away how he got owned by a padawan, not explaining or clarifying exactly how he would own the same padawan 20 years later.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
but maul was using the darkside and rage and crap like that too.
Um, yea he is a sith after all that is what sith use the darkside which in turn means that use emotions. hence Palpatine saying "Give into your anger" and Dooku saying something along the lines your have hate,you have fear, etc. Please tell me you know the basics of the darkside and the sith.
And kenobi backs him up and cuts his saber up
! Maybe the eu maul and the movie maul are an inconscistency?
since this is TPM maul, and not comic book maul, i am taking the side of the maul who got spanked by a padawan.
Maybe it is debateable that he got overpowered by obi wan, but do you think that 20 years later, after becoming the master of the greatest lightsaber form (according to windu), and taking out anakin, that this tips the scales totally in Kenobi's favor. THink about it for a second. If Kenobi didn't force maul back, then they were pretty evenly matched. 20 years of experience and training later,
Kenobi would CLEARLY take this.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
No shit sherlock, I debating that he doesn't go down without giving Kenobi difficulty.
Those who take maul's part are apparently only defending and explaining away how he got owned by a padawan, not explaining or clarifying exactly how he would own the same padawan 20 years later.
sure, kid, I believe you. he just got cocky, and when maul gets cocky he kinda freezes and stands absolutely still for about 3 seconds while a padawan jumps over him and slices him in half. Either is so cocky he thinks obi wan will jump too high and hit his head on the roof, and then fall down behind him, or hes stupid, and this would just be exploited over and over and over.
The thing with the inconscistency im talking about is that he killed anoon bondara, and then got kicked down a shaft by a padawan!!
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
sure, kid, I believe you. he just got cocky, and when maul get's cocky he kinda freezes and stands absolutely still for about 3 seconds while a padawan jumps over him and slices him in half.
WTf are you going about now? He got cocky and was surprised and died,same thing happened vs Vader when he was winning. He was surprised and it cost him. I'm not making excuse for him. But if you read more than a single comic(and even there maul isn't cocky) about him than you would that he got cocky twice in his entire career and he died on both occasions. Being cocky/overconfidence isn't trait that lies only with Maul.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
The thing with the inconscistency im talking about is that he killed anoon bondara, and then got kicked down a shaft by a padawan!!
he didn't get cocky vs vader. he was totally unprepared for vader to slice through his own circuits when he was about to let fall the death stroke.
what i dont understand is why did he freeze? why didnt he like hold up his lightsaber when obi wan flipped over him and just cleave him in two? If hes so awesome, why?
I never said it was only with maul, i just said that it looks like, when he gets cocky, he gets sluggish and stupid.
I did read star wars visionaries.
Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
he didn't get cocky vs vader. he was totally unprepared for vader to slice through his own circuits when he was about to let fall the death stroke.
Um if I recall correctly vader was on his kneeds or barely standing his suit was already damaged and Maul says what couid you possibly hate enough to destroy me? instead of killing Vader in that instant he gives Vader a small enough period for Vader to think and Vader replies"myself and stabs through himself to get Maul as he was about to deliver the final blow. Plus I believe Maul was talking smack before hand which is something he didn't do in Shadow Hunter, the short story or any other source, hell even doesn't talk in TPM duel.
To answer your second second he didn't know what Obiwan was doing. I don't recall if Maul's mindset at that moment was ever described but like I said Obiwan closed his eyes and was calming himself down and Maul could have been feeling something in the force that he couldn't see other than obiwan calming himself, he was also reaching out for Qui-Gon's lightsaber so that came into. We can only speculate why Maul stood still my only guess is what I just said above,combined with shock and surprise.