Originally posted by JuntaiSeriously. The fact that I admitted a mistake by not adding a few words and that equates to me trying to actively lie and mislead people is a very, very low attempt at trying to undermine my credibility. I posted the damn scans myself, in the very same exact post. If I wanted to lie about it, I wouldn't have posted scans that people could see for themselves. What most people see as an honest mistake, you see as a malicious lie designed to decieve people. This idea has literally become the crux of your entire position. Which is very clear since you've abandoned point after point after point and clung helplessly to inane arguments that get you nowhere. The mistake doesn't even mean anything substantial to the context of our arguments. I don't lie. I may make honest mistakes, but I sure as hell don't lie about scans that I take the time to post myself. Very few people have the audacity to actually lie about their scans. I've only seen it a few times. I don't. Don't ever accuse me of doing so again.
It's always cool when people admit they're outright lying after someone points it for everyone to plainly see, if only you'd do that about the dozen other or so things I've already pointed out you lying about or completely misconstruing. But hey, I'll take it one victory at a time. You'll be conceeding more after this post.
Originally posted by JuntaiWhen asked whether there would be only one Earth, Hallax replied that he didn't need to stop at only one Earth, why not make another one? But he still refers to those multiple Earths as being in one universe:
Funny how Hal mentioned he was going to build more Universes after building the one, that didn't even get finished entirely. Clearly he had far more power than you're giving credit for. He even specifically mentions building a universe for the JSA. And then another for Centurion and one for the alternate Batgirl as well. . . .Or are you purposely leaving that out hoping to convince those who haven't read the story that Spectre fought a powerless Parallax? Hallax had a ton of energy left. One universe was apperently the least of his power, the bulk of it was lost fighting Spectre.Out of energy before fighting Spectre? I think not.
Out of Guardian/OA energy before fighting Spectre? Not even close. Notice his giant green constructs and energy blasts. Especially given that he planned to build more universes, requiring the same plasma energy he used to build the first.
At the peak of his power he stole from the dawn of time and OA? I never suggested such a thing. Spectre still fought a multiverse destroyer/creator, until he was out of energy that he couldn't beat a handful of guys kicking and punching him. Surely Hal used some energy, but according to Hal, it was pretty much a drop in the water, while while he was going to go about rebuilding the Infinite Earths.
This was also CLEARLY a severely amped up Parallax, as subsequent ION and Parallax appearanced have them nowhere near the same level, so he is clearly above the entities, where you claimed he was not earlier in the thread. That was the reason for bringing up Zero Hour, because an amped up Parallax still was left powerless by Spectre, who still had vast amounts of energy left. So much in fact, that the others who absorbed Parallax's universe, dumping it into Damage, seemed to be far less energy than Spectre was pumping, given Damage's reaction. Spectre's powers clearly did the bulk of the work in restarting reality.
Spectre lost to Hallax?! Laughable. He was still standing at the resolution of the fight, after Parallax dumped the equivelent of a multiverse of energy into their battle, and STILL HAD MORE TO GIVE. There is no on panel confirmation of him defeated, only one you're extrapolating completely. In fact, his remaining vast energies suggest completely otherwise.
Hallax: "Guy -- I can bring back most everyone who died -- Kilowog -- the Corps -- even more! And why stop there? Why not two Earths? One for us -- one for the JSA, where they can stay eternally young?"
Alpha Centurion: "I expect my Metropolis... my world... to exist as well!"
Batgirl: " . . . All I want to do is live!"
Hallax: "And you will. You'll have your Gotham City and Alpha Centurion will have his Metropolis! In my universe, everything will be as it should be! Everybody wins!"
So everything that they just talked about, would be in Hallax's universe. Singular. Not plural. Singular. ON-PANEL. Does it sound crazy to have multiple Earths floating around in one universe? Maybe. But Hallax was crazy too and destroying all of reality and rebuilding it from scratch proved he was crazy. Bottom-line, his words are ON-PANEL and unambiguously clear.
What baffles me even more is that you think Hallax had enough power to create multiple universes. I mean seriously... even I don't think the stolen Central Power Battery powers allow him THAT much power. That's insane. The fact that you want to believe he could possess that much power is completely motivated by your need for Spectre to not have been defeated by a depleted Hallax. You're running around chasing your own tail so much in order to build up Spectre in 'Zero Hour' that you've started arguing for the most ridiculous things in absolute contradiction to ON-PANEL conversations. "Oh, Spectre wasn't defeated. He just stood off-panel until the battle ended." "Oh, Kyle was wrong when he claims that Spectre sacrifices himself." "Oh... Hallax was still mightily amped because his stolen Power of the Guardians was sufficient to make multiple universes." Even though he said ON-PANEL that all those worlds/Earths would exist in his universe. Singular.
Basically according to you, Spectre stood off-panel doing nothing and allowed Batgirl to be killed before standing on-panel again and reforming out of ethereal smoke. Kyle didn't know what the hell he was talking about even though he's standing right there. And Hallax's stolen Central Power Battery energies could remake not just one universe, but multiple universes. Do you expect ANY of us to really believe this? And you still fail to acknowledge Waverider's team's assault on Hallax. Ridiculous...
Originally posted by JuntaiThe rest of what you post is gibberish. You think that Spectre is so far above the Parallax entity that the single scene of him clapping his hands is the only piece of evidence that we should use to compare the two. Nice that you ignore the 5 WHOLE YEARS that Spectre FAILED to burn out Parallax from within. Nice that you ignore it was Hal's conquering fear that loosened Parallax's grip on his soul so completely that Hal literally manifested himself and tore out of Parallax's form in order to make Parallax vulnerable enough for Spectre to do a god damn thing.
Now, you said, Parallax entity is immune to Spectre.
More lies, which seems to be a habit for you in this thread.
And since you've danced around it, and tried to run off on tangents every time I bring it up - I'll make it plain simple, and concise.Fill in these blanks for me;
In Rebirth issue 4.
Hal calls out "____.... HELP ME!"
And it took ____ exactly ___ amount of panels to seperate them by clapping his hands together?"If you said; SPECTRE, SPECTRE, and ONE. You are correct!
And after the Spectre leaves, Parallax believes that nothing can stop him, indeed, he clearly said without the Spectre there were no hands holding him in place.
It took Spectre one panel to separate Hal and Parallax? WHAT?! It took him 5 years of utter failure! Spectre asked Hal Jordan for his help because he couldn't do a damn thing, and I quote: "You must see the truth, Hal Jordan. You must help me fight it." And it wasn't until Hal conquered his own fear from within, WHILE Parallax was usurping Spectre's own power and attacking all his friends, for Spectre to finally have a chance to separate the two. FIVE. YEARS. ON-PANEL. Spectre asking Hal for his help. ON-PANEL. Spectre's powers usurped. ALL. ON-PANEL:
http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1jl5.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2sx2.jpg
http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3tc8.jpg
http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4wr2.jpg
Your arguments fail. And this thread isn't enjoyable to me anymore. All I'm doing is beating your arguments senseless while being acused of lying. I'm just repeating the same things and posting the same scans. I've said my piece and it seems a bunch of people got the information they needed. I'm not going to convince you and I don't care to anymore. Your opinion is worthless to me. I'm done with this thread. Just remember, the way you dodged the issue of Ganthet's relation to classic Ion powers? That'll come back one day some other place.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Nice scans. It shows you didnt lie about anything. It backs everything you have been saying from the beginning.
The rest of what you post is gibberish. You think that Spectre is so far above the Parallax entity that the single scene of him clapping his hands is the only piece of evidence that we should use to compare the two. Nice that you ignore the 5 WHOLE YEARS that Spectre FAILED to burn out Parallax from within. Nice that you ignore it was Hal's conquering fear that loosened Parallax's grip on his soul so completely that Hal literally manifested himself and tore out of Parallax's form in order to make Parallax vulnerable enough for Spectre to do a god damn thing.It took Spectre one panel to separate Hal and Parallax? WHAT?! It took him 5 years of utter failure! Spectre asked Hal Jordan for his help because he couldn't do a damn thing, and I quote: "You must see the truth, Hal Jordan. You must help me fight it." And it wasn't until Hal conquered his own fear from within, WHILE Parallax was usurping Spectre's own power and attacking all his friends, for Spectre to finally have a chance to separate the two. FIVE. YEARS. ON-PANEL. Spectre asking Hal for his help. ON-PANEL. Spectre's powers usurped. ALL. ON-PANEL:
http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1jl5.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2sx2.jpg
http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3tc8.jpg
http://img164.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4wr2.jpgYour arguments fail. And this thread isn't enjoyable to me anymore. All I'm doing is beating your arguments senseless while being acused of lying. I'm just repeating the same things and posting the same scans. I've said my piece and it seems a bunch of people got the information they needed. I'm not going to convince you and I don't care to anymore. Your opinion is worthless to me. I'm done with this thread. Just remember, the way you dodged the issue of Ganthet's relation to classic Ion powers? That'll come back one day some other place.
I cant believe another poster has the audacity to brand you a liar when you clearly arent biased which I cant say the same for the other poster.
Again nice job in getting the truth out there and backing up your case.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Seriously. The fact that I admitted a mistake by not adding a few words and that equates to me trying to actively lie and mislead people is a very, very low attempt at trying to undermine my credibility. I posted the damn scans myself, in the very same exact post. If I wanted to lie about it, I wouldn't have posted scans that people could see for themselves. What most people see as an honest mistake, you see as a malicious lie designed to decieve people. This idea has literally become the crux of your entire position. Which is very clear since you've abandoned point after point after point and clung helplessly to inane arguments that get you nowhere. The mistake doesn't even mean anything substantial to the context of our arguments. I don't lie. I may make honest mistakes, but I sure as hell don't lie about scans that I take the time to post myself. Very few people have the audacity to actually lie about their scans. I've only seen it a few times. I don't. Don't ever accuse me of doing so again.When asked whether there would be only one Earth, Hallax replied that he didn't need to stop at only one Earth, why not make another one? But he still refers to those multiple Earths as being in one universe:
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10hz7.jpg[b]Hallax:
"Guy -- I can bring back most everyone who died -- Kilowog -- the Corps -- even more! And why stop there? Why not two Earths? One for us -- one for the JSA, where they can stay eternally young?"
Alpha Centurion: "I expect my Metropolis... my world... to exist as well!"
Batgirl: " . . . All I want to do is live!"
Hallax: "And you will. You'll have your Gotham City and Alpha Centurion will have his Metropolis! In my universe, everything will be as it should be! Everybody wins!"So everything that they just talked about, would be in Hallax's universe. Singular. Not plural. Singular. ON-PANEL. Does it sound crazy to have multiple Earths floating around in one universe? Maybe. But Hallax was crazy too and destroying all of reality and rebuilding it from scratch proved he was crazy. Bottom-line, his words are ON-PANEL and unambiguously clear.
What baffles me even more is that you think Hallax had enough power to create multiple universes. I mean seriously... even I don't think the stolen Central Power Battery powers allow him THAT much power. That's insane. The fact that you want to believe he could possess that much power is completely motivated by your need for Spectre to not have been defeated by a depleted Hallax. You're running around chasing your own tail so much in order to build up Spectre in 'Zero Hour' that you've started arguing for the most ridiculous things in absolute contradiction to ON-PANEL conversations. "Oh, Spectre wasn't defeated. He just stood off-panel until the battle ended." "Oh, Kyle was wrong when he claims that Spectre sacrifices himself." "Oh... Hallax was still mightily amped because his stolen Power of the Guardians was sufficient to make multiple universes." Even though he said ON-PANEL that all those worlds/Earths would exist in his universe. Singular.
Basically according to you, Spectre stood off-panel doing nothing and allowed Batgirl to be killed before standing on-panel again and reforming out of ethereal smoke. Kyle didn't know what the hell he was talking about even though he's standing right there. And Hallax's stolen Central Power Battery energies could remake not just one universe, but multiple universes. Do you expect ANY of us to really believe this? And you still fail to acknowledge Waverider's team's assault on Hallax. Ridiculous... [/B]
You know it's not the spectre's job to prevent murder but to avenge it right? and that batgirl shouldn't have been there anyway. So um yeah, he let her be killed.
Originally posted by quanchi112
He was powerless to prevent it. He had no choice.
No. If he wanted to, he could have called upon his logoz power and made her immortal. Don't forget that the spectre has been God before. That means he knows all that was is and is to come. So he knows what is right and what is wrong. That batgirl shouldnt' have existed.
Originally posted by fangirl101He couldnt burn Parallax out. It was stated. There are many things the Spectre cant do. Spectre is supposed to be the wrath and doesnt have the intestinal fortitude to merge and become dcu god. He was taking on more than he could chew. Hes not Thanos. 😉
No. If he wanted to, he could have called upon his logoz power and made her immortal. Don't forget that the spectre has been God before. That means he knows all that was is and is to come. So he knows what is right and what is wrong. That batgirl shouldnt' have existed.
Originally posted by quanchi112what in the hell does thanos have to do with this thread? Thanos never became god either. he was tricked by the master manipulator. he got screwed big time.
He couldnt burn Parallax out. It was stated. There are many things the Spectre cant do. Spectre is supposed to be the wrath and doesnt have the intestinal fortitude to merge and become dcu god. He was taking on more than he could chew. Hes not Thanos. 😉
Originally posted by fangirl101He was tricked into becoming supreme so he could fix the flaw which he did. Spectre is a joke when compared to Thanos mentally.
what in the hell does thanos have to do with this thread? Thanos never became god either. he was tricked by the master manipulator. he got screwed big time.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
When asked whether there would be only one Earth, Hallax replied that he didn't need to stop at only one Earth, why not make another one? But he still refers to those multiple Earths as being in one universe:
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10hz7.jpgHallax: "Guy -- I can bring back most everyone who died -- Kilowog -- the Corps -- even more! And why stop there? Why not two Earths? One for us -- one for the JSA, where they can stay eternally young?"
Alpha Centurion: "I expect my Metropolis... my world... to exist as well!"
Batgirl: " . . . All I want to do is live!"
Hallax: "And you will. You'll have your Gotham City and Alpha Centurion will have his Metropolis! In my universe, everything will be as it should be! Everybody wins!"So everything that they just talked about, would be in Hallax's universe. Singular. Not plural. Singular. ON-PANEL. Does it sound crazy to have multiple Earths floating around in one universe? Maybe. But Hallax was crazy too and destroying all of reality and rebuilding it from scratch proved he was crazy. Bottom-line, his words are ON-PANEL and unambiguously clear.
What baffles me even more is that you think Hallax had enough power to create multiple universes. I mean seriously... even I don't think the stolen Central Power Battery powers allow him THAT much power. That's insane. The fact that you want to believe he could possess that much power is completely motivated by your need for Spectre to not have been defeated by a depleted Hallax. You're running around chasing your own tail so much in order to build up Spectre in 'Zero Hour' that you've started arguing for the most ridiculous things in absolute contradiction to ON-PANEL conversations. "Oh, Spectre wasn't defeated. He just stood off-panel until the battle ended." "Oh, Kyle was wrong when he claims that Spectre sacrifices himself." "Oh... Hallax was still mightily amped because his stolen Power of the Guardians was sufficient to make multiple universes." Even though he said ON-PANEL that all those worlds/Earths would exist in his universe. Singular.
Basically according to you, Spectre stood off-panel doing nothing and allowed Batgirl to be killed before standing on-panel again and reforming out of ethereal smoke. Kyle didn't know what the hell he was talking about even though he's standing right there. And Hallax's stolen Central Power Battery energies could remake not just one universe, but multiple universes. Do you expect ANY of us to really believe this? And you still fail to acknowledge Waverider's team's assault on Hallax. Ridiculous...
Only if you completely ignore the context of the story itself, which only serves to show your ignorance of the entire subject matter of Zero Hour and indeed, DC's history.
Zero Hour wasn't about a single universe, in fact, right from the onset, it's clear we're dealing with an entire multiverse. Waverider is talking about how he had to wipe out an entire reality to defeat Monarch. Rip calls the universe a timeline from his perception as a Linear Man. Timelines = Realities = Earths = Universes. Keep that in mind, it's important.
Now, lets hear Rip Hunter's explanation of alternate timelines.
http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29141982td0.jpg
The hypertime reference isn't what important here, although it obviously existed from Rips POV, it hadn't fully been utilized yet... but the fact that splintered timelines and Earths indeed, are a multiverse. DC recognizes this on panel.[And not only them mind you.]
Throughout the story, and the tie ins, it's clear that seperate realities, as well as the prime reality are all being wiped out. This is how several alternate characters end up in the story. Hence, Batgirl, etc.
So we've verified that there is multiple timelines and Earths or characters from them being shown on panel, meaning Hal erased a multiverse by tightening the loop in time.
Zero Hour was in essence, to once again try to rid DC of having many realities and timelines, a sequel to COIE, since these alternate universe and timeline stories were already popping back into continuity within a decade after the COIE. So they went about trying to simplify again. [And ultimately looking back, failing horribly again, but with a lot of great stories! ]
Now before we consider what Hal was building....first lets verify what Hal called that he destroyed on panel!?
In his famous introduction into the story, he knocks out Superman and standing over the fallen body of Earth's Champion he proclaims;
"I've taken the name PARALLAX. I've seen the UNIVERSE from many different directions. And I know how to fix it, even if it means DESTROYING it!"
Wait a minute, Hal wiped out a multiverse as we'e already verified and called it a Universe!? Incredible.
Now, let's consider that DC near always calls it's alternate universes-- Earths, hence, Crisis on Multiple Earths, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Earth 1, Earth 2, [instead of Universe] and again reconsider what Hal was building.
Hal says "And why stop there? Why not TWO Earths, one for us, and one for the JSA, where they can can stay eternally young?"
And tells Batgirl and Centurian he'll rebuild their Earths too!
Put into perspective and the context of the story, thinking Hal is speaking merely of filling up a single universe/Earth/Timeline with tons of replicas of planet Earth is just plain ignorant.
Clearly with the reference to the JSA, and his creation of multiple Earths, and all he's said or claimed his 'Universe' will be, it's quite clear his intention is to try to bring back the "Golden Age" and the Infinite Earths, where everything was perfect and basically no one ever really aged or died.
And for the last piece, we have to consider what Hal said on the very first page as reality is finally fully wiped, and all color gone, two pages after knocking out Superman. And he's talking about how the universe needs a clean slate, he plain and clearly says...
"Who knows? Maybe one universe, one world, won't be enough."
This suggests, that again, when he's talking about making more EARTHS, he is indeed speaking of universes.
And also clearly points out the fact, that he indeed does have the ability to more than a single universe, and a DIRECT reference to the fact on panel.
So after not even completing a single universe, but knowing Hallax had the power to create MORE, ON PANEL, BY HIS OWN STATEMENTS, how much power did he have when he battled Spectre?
Answer? Most of it, while you claimed he was all but gone of energy already. Completely not true.
As for Spectre being defeated? I've already covered that. Show me the panel where Spectre is depicted down and out or defeated, because I can show you the ones where he isn't, but indeed still has vast energies left. Showing him getting blasted and going ARGH, then seeing him still up and running isn't cutting it. Basically, show the goods, or drop it.
As for Ganthet vs Spectre? Bring it.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Seriously. The fact that I admitted a mistake by not adding a few words and that equates to me trying to actively lie and mislead people is a very, very low attempt at trying to undermine my credibility. I posted the damn scans myself, in the very same exact post. If I wanted to lie about it, I wouldn't have posted scans that people could see for themselves. What most people see as an honest mistake, you see as a malicious lie designed to decieve people. This idea has literally become the crux of your entire position. Which is very clear since you've abandoned point after point after point and clung helplessly to inane arguments that get you nowhere. The mistake doesn't even mean anything substantial to the context of our arguments. I don't lie. I may make honest mistakes, but I sure as hell don't lie about scans that I take the time to post myself. Very few people have the audacity to actually lie about their scans. I've only seen it a few times. I don't. Don't ever accuse me of doing so again.When asked whether there would be only one Earth, Hallax replied that he didn't need to stop at only one Earth, why not make another one? But he still refers to those multiple Earths as being in one universe:
http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10hz7.jpg[b]Hallax:
"Guy -- I can bring back most everyone who died -- Kilowog -- the Corps -- even more! And why stop there? Why not two Earths? One for us -- one for the JSA, where they can stay eternally young?"
Alpha Centurion: "I expect my Metropolis... my world... to exist as well!"
Batgirl: " . . . All I want to do is live!"
Hallax: "And you will. You'll have your Gotham City and Alpha Centurion will have his Metropolis! In my universe, everything will be as it should be! Everybody wins!"So everything that they just talked about, would be in Hallax's universe. Singular. Not plural. Singular. ON-PANEL. Does it sound crazy to have multiple Earths floating around in one universe? Maybe. But Hallax was crazy too and destroying all of reality and rebuilding it from scratch proved he was crazy. Bottom-line, his words are ON-PANEL and unambiguously clear.
What baffles me even more is that you think Hallax had enough power to create multiple universes. I mean seriously... even I don't think the stolen Central Power Battery powers allow him THAT much power. That's insane. The fact that you want to believe he could possess that much power is completely motivated by your need for Spectre to not have been defeated by a depleted Hallax. You're running around chasing your own tail so much in order to build up Spectre in 'Zero Hour' that you've started arguing for the most ridiculous things in absolute contradiction to ON-PANEL conversations. "Oh, Spectre wasn't defeated. He just stood off-panel until the battle ended." "Oh, Kyle was wrong when he claims that Spectre sacrifices himself." "Oh... Hallax was still mightily amped because his stolen Power of the Guardians was sufficient to make multiple universes." Even though he said ON-PANEL that all those worlds/Earths would exist in his universe. Singular.
Basically according to you, Spectre stood off-panel doing nothing and allowed Batgirl to be killed before standing on-panel again and reforming out of ethereal smoke. Kyle didn't know what the hell he was talking about even though he's standing right there. And Hallax's stolen Central Power Battery energies could remake not just one universe, but multiple universes. Do you expect ANY of us to really believe this? And you still fail to acknowledge Waverider's team's assault on Hallax. Ridiculous... [/B]
I think you have proven your point, and i think its nice to see a fair and open mined poster who looks into these things with common sense, i dont mind the p.i.s argument or the jobber excuse where spectre is concerned.but to just ignore the evidence is wrong.
The thread starter had a specific question in mind"This is an Spectre with a host, but he is not fully backed up by the source. The host is Corrigan"
Now I.M.O spectre in zero hour acted out of freindship and anger and was not backed by the source....it might not be able to be proven, but its what i took from the story, so i see it as a perfect example of what the thread starter asked for, and when looked at fairly, spectre was defeated and it is just a indication of where spectre stands when not backed and it has a host
Originally posted by JuntaiJawdropping.
Only if you completely ignore the context of the story itself, which only serves to show your ignorance of the entire subject matter of Zero Hour and indeed, DC's history.Zero Hour wasn't about a single universe, in fact, right from the onset, it's clear we're dealing with an entire multiverse. Waverider is talking about how he had to wipe out an entire reality to defeat Monarch. Rip calls the universe a timeline from his perception as a Linear Man. Timelines = Realities = Earths = Universes. Keep that in mind, it's important.
Now, lets hear Rip Hunter's explanation of alternate timelines.
http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29141982td0.jpg
The hypertime reference isn't what important here, although it obviously existed from Rips POV, it hadn't fully been utilized yet... but the fact that splintered timelines and Earths indeed, are a multiverse. DC recognizes this on panel.[And not only them mind you.]Throughout the story, and the tie ins, it's clear that seperate realities, as well as the prime reality are all being wiped out. This is how several alternate characters end up in the story. Hence, Batgirl, etc.
So we've verified that there is multiple timelines and Earths or characters from them being shown on panel, meaning Hal erased a multiverse by tightening the loop in time.
Zero Hour was in essence, to once again try to rid DC of having many realities and timelines, a sequel to COIE, since these alternate universe and timeline stories were already popping back into continuity within a decade after the COIE. So they went about trying to simplify again. [And ultimately looking back, failing horribly again, but with a lot of great stories! ]
Now before we consider what Hal was building....first lets verify what Hal called that he destroyed on panel!?
In his famous introduction into the story, he knocks out Superman and standing over the fallen body of Earth's Champion he proclaims;
"I've taken the name PARALLAX. I've seen the UNIVERSE from many different directions. And I know how to fix it, even if it means DESTROYING it!"
Wait a minute, Hal wiped out a multiverse as we'e already verified and called it a Universe!? Incredible.
Now, let's consider that DC near always calls it's alternate universes-- Earths, hence, Crisis on Multiple Earths, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Earth 1, Earth 2, [instead of Universe] and again reconsider what Hal was building.
Hal says "And why stop there? Why not TWO Earths, one for us, and one for the JSA, where they can can stay eternally young?"
And tells Batgirl and Centurian he'll rebuild their Earths too!
Put into perspective and the context of the story, thinking Hal is speaking merely of filling up a single universe/Earth/Timeline with tons of replicas of planet Earth is just plain ignorant.
Clearly with the reference to the JSA, and his creation of multiple Earths, and all he's said or claimed his 'Universe' will be, it's quite clear his intention is to try to bring back the "Golden Age" and the Infinite Earths, where everything was perfect and basically no one ever really aged or died.
And for the last piece, we have to consider what Hal said on the very first page as reality is finally fully wiped, and all color gone, two pages after knocking out Superman. And he's talking about how the universe needs a clean slate, he plain and clearly says...
"Who knows? Maybe one universe, one world, won't be enough."
This suggests, that again, when he's talking about making more EARTHS, he is indeed speaking of universes.
And also clearly points out the fact, that he indeed does have the ability to more than a single universe, and a DIRECT reference to the fact on panel.
So after not even completing a single universe, but knowing Hallax had the power to create MORE, ON PANEL, BY HIS OWN STATEMENTS, how much power did he have when he battled Spectre?
Answer? Most of it, while you claimed he was all but gone of energy already. Completely not true.
As for Spectre being defeated? I've already covered that. Show me the panel where Spectre is depicted down and out or defeated, because I can show you the ones where he isn't, but indeed still has vast energies left. Showing him getting blasted and going ARGH, then seeing him still up and running isn't cutting it. Basically, show the goods, or drop it.
As for Ganthet vs Spectre? Bring it.
If I had never read ZH, that post would've brought me up to par. Excellent. 👆
Originally posted by starlockYes dumbgo proved his point and then some. He put up scans showing he clearly wasnt taking anything out of context.
I think you have proven your point, and i think its nice to see a fair and open mined poster who looks into these things with common sense, i dont mind the p.i.s argument or the jobber excuse where spectre is concerned.but to just ignore the evidence is wrong.The thread starter had a specific question in mind"This is an Spectre with a host, but he is not fully backed up by the source. The host is Corrigan"
Now I.M.O spectre in zero hour acted out of freindship and anger and was not backed by the source....it might not be able to be proven, but its what i took from the story, so i see it as a perfect example of what the thread starter asked for, and when looked at fairly, spectre was defeated and it is just a indication of where spectre stands when not backed and it has a host
Originally posted by JuntaiOnly if you completely ignore the context of the story itself, which only serves to show your ignorance of the entire subject matter of Zero Hour and indeed, DC's history.
Zero Hour wasn't about a single universe, in fact, right from the onset, it's clear we're dealing with an entire multiverse. Waverider is talking about how he had to wipe out an entire reality to defeat Monarch. Rip calls the universe a timeline from his perception as a Linear Man. Timelines = Realities = Earths = Universes. Keep that in mind, it's important.
Now, lets hear Rip Hunter's explanation of alternate timelines.
http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=29141982td0.jpg
The hypertime reference isn't what important here, although it obviously existed from Rips POV, it hadn't fully been utilized yet... but the fact that splintered timelines and Earths indeed, are a multiverse. DC recognizes this on panel.[And not only them mind you.]Throughout the story, and the tie ins, it's clear that seperate realities, as well as the prime reality are all being wiped out. This is how several alternate characters end up in the story. Hence, Batgirl, etc.
So we've verified that there is multiple timelines and Earths or characters from them being shown on panel, meaning Hal erased a multiverse by tightening the loop in time.
Zero Hour was in essence, to once again try to rid DC of having many realities and timelines, a sequel to COIE, since these alternate universe and timeline stories were already popping back into continuity within a decade after the COIE. So they went about trying to simplify again. [And ultimately looking back, failing horribly again, but with a lot of great stories! ]
Now before we consider what Hal was building....first lets verify what Hal called that he destroyed on panel!?
In his famous introduction into the story, he knocks out Superman and standing over the fallen body of Earth's Champion he proclaims;
"I've taken the name PARALLAX. I've seen the UNIVERSE from many different directions. And I know how to fix it, even if it means DESTROYING it!"
Wait a minute, Hal wiped out a multiverse as we'e already verified and called it a Universe!? Incredible.
Now, let's consider that DC near always calls it's alternate universes-- Earths, hence, Crisis on Multiple Earths, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Earth 1, Earth 2, [instead of Universe] and again reconsider what Hal was building.
Hal says "And why stop there? Why not TWO Earths, one for us, and one for the JSA, where they can can stay eternally young?"
And tells Batgirl and Centurian he'll rebuild their Earths too!
Put into perspective and the context of the story, thinking Hal is speaking merely of filling up a single universe/Earth/Timeline with tons of replicas of planet Earth is just plain ignorant.
Clearly with the reference to the JSA, and his creation of multiple Earths, and all he's said or claimed his 'Universe' will be, it's quite clear his intention is to try to bring back the "Golden Age" and the Infinite Earths, where everything was perfect and basically no one ever really aged or died.
And for the last piece, we have to consider what Hal said on the very first page as reality is finally fully wiped, and all color gone, two pages after knocking out Superman. And he's talking about how the universe needs a clean slate, he plain and clearly says...
"Who knows? Maybe one universe, one world, won't be enough."
This suggests, that again, when he's talking about making more EARTHS, he is indeed speaking of universes.
And also clearly points out the fact, that he indeed does have the ability to more than a single universe, and a DIRECT reference to the fact on panel.
So after not even completing a single universe, but knowing Hallax had the power to create MORE, ON PANEL, BY HIS OWN STATEMENTS, how much power did he have when he battled Spectre?
Answer? Most of it, while you claimed he was all but gone of energy already. Completely not true.
As for Spectre being defeated? I've already covered that. Show me the panel where Spectre is depicted down and out or defeated, because I can show you the ones where he isn't, but indeed still has vast energies left. Showing him getting blasted and going ARGH, then seeing him still up and running isn't cutting it. Basically, show the goods, or drop it.
As for Ganthet vs Spectre? Bring it.
Back on the map baby. swank
