The kotor 2 triumvirate vs rots siddious

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Another thing to add to the list?

No technical ability, yes. Technique, as in mastery of the moves and sequences that come with the lightsaber forms, footwork, and stance, plays no part whatsoever when you simply jump at your opponent and move as quickly as you can to impale them before they can react.

It's pure speed, nothing more, nothing less.

Also, the point I was actually making was about the Masters, not Sidious, and it was that all that they stood out for in the grand scheme of things: their lightaber technique, was made irrelevant by the manner in which they were taken out. They simply lacked the reaction speed to protect themselves from Sidious' assault in time. That says nothing about their technique what so ever, but purely their reaction timing, which is why bringing up how Agen and Saesee were some of the best swordsmen ever is nothing more than irrelevant misdirection.

Now forming a comparison between Bane and Sidious in that respect, Agen, Saesee, Raskta, and Farfalla are all on par in that respect, in the sense that there's next to nothing that would put any of them above another in reaction speed, and Bane would have been capable of doing exactly what Sidious did to Agen and Saesee, to Raskta and Farfalla (or rather more; Bane would have literally ran them over, whereas Sidious used his lightsaber, something that would grant him greater range than what Bane possessed, and thus something less demanding of speed), if not for the fact that they were being empowered by BM.

Really guys, you need to actually start analysing evidence rather than just putting it out there, and forming a conclusion without substantiating anything. It's exactly why this argument fails, and exactly why every single Sidious quote has been torn apart with ease.

Irrelevant misdirection.

Strawman.

@ Sidi-boy, it's logic, don't even try to "get it," you'll only end up failing miserably.

Right then, Nebaris. It so happens that, as you consider yourself to be a superior debator, how easy it is to 'rip apart' your points.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
No technical ability, yes. Technique, as in mastery of the moves and sequences that come with the lightsaber forms, footwork, and stance, plays no part whatsoever when you simply jump at your opponent and move as quickly as you can to impale them before they can react.

It's pure speed, nothing more, nothing less.

Also, the point I was actually making was about the Masters, not Sidious, and it was that all that they stood out for in the grand scheme of things: their lightaber technique, was made irrelevant by the manner in which they were taken out. They simply lacked the reaction speed to protect themselves from Sidious' assault in time. That says nothing about their technique what so ever, but purely their reaction timing, which is why bringing up how Agen and Saesee were some of the best swordsmen ever is nothing more than irrelevant misdirection.

Now forming a comparison between Bane and Sidious in that respect, Agen, Saesee, Raskta, and Farfalla are all on par in that respect, in the sense that there's next to nothing that would put any of them above another in reaction speed, and Bane would have been capable of doing exactly what Sidious did to Agen and Saesee, to Raskta and Farfalla (or rather more; Bane would have literally ran them over, whereas Sidious used his lightsaber, something that would grant him greater range than what Bane possessed, and thus something less demanding of speed), if not for the fact that they were being empowered by BM.

Really guys, you need to actually start analysing evidence rather than just putting it out there, and forming a conclusion without substantiating anything. It's exactly why this argument fails, and exactly why every single Sidious quote has been torn apart with ease.

No, Nebaris, no. According to you, Sidious utilizing speed doesn't count as swordsmanship because, for some reason, he only utilized his force-enhanced speed in order to defeat Kolar and Tiin, which is complete and utter bullshit. Right then- according to you, they were more 'technically skilled', but were outmanuevered due to Sidious' vastly superior speed advantage. It's not true. Let me display it to you:

Anoon Bondara's lightsaber skills, for example, were considered to be second to none in the order; however, it's rather safe to say that he was not necessarily the 'best' swordsman in the order, but rather the one with the most technical skills. As you see, the quote calling his lightsaber skills second to none is a reference to his technical skill exclusively, rather than a reference to how good- overall- he is a swordsman. For all you know, he could have been a guy who uses all the right moves, all the right stances, all the right strikes, but moves slower than ANH Obi-Wan. Not saying it's true, but it's a possibility.

Then again, you have Dooku, who is possibly the person with the most technical skill we've seen in the Star Wars movies, but nevertheless, he got his ass handed to him by the less skillful Anakin. Why is that? Because Anakin overpowered him with Djem So and beat him into submission. So, while Dooku's lightsaber skills were superior to Anakin's, Anakin's raw power and capability of performing his style made him into a better overall swordsman than Dooku.

Then again, you have Bane himself. Kas'im was miles ahead of him in terms of technical knowledge, but Bane, due to his familiaty with Kas'im's technique, got the upper hand (initially).

However, then you have Tiin, Fisto, and Kolar; they were called some of the greatest, not most skillful, but greatest swordsmen in the history of the Jedi Order; it was a reference to their overall prowess with a lightsaber, just as Anakin's is a greater swordsman than Dooku, but Dooku is more skilled. Try to understand it, will you?

Then again, you have the incredibly unlikely thing that Sidious was capable of striking them down via pure speed when you have a being on their team who possibly matches Sidious in speed (Windu). According to comments made by Nick Gillard- who is a far more canonical source, as I've proven above, than what you think he is- Sidious' style is one of unpredictability. And then again you have that when Sidious instructed his apprentice in combat, he chose to teach him Juyo. As Sidious is clearly a master of Juyo, as seen in his fight with Yoda, and Juyo is a style based off of speed and unpredictability, I think that it was a mixture of speed and technical skill that enabled Sidious to eliminate them with such efficiency. You can't have a super fast monkey kill an incredible swordsman. It just doesn't work. Unless, of course, you want to concede Sidious being faster than Bane, because Bane was never shown to be able to overload a highly formidable ability with his speed exclusively. Even the only impressive opponent Bane defeated in combat, namely Farfalla, was physically overpowered, now 'overloaded' with speed or something along the lines of that- in fact, that same Farfalla was not empowered by battle meditation anymore. And still, Bane beat him into submission, not struck him down with some unpredictable attack.

Now then. As you can see, formidable as Bane's speed might be, it wasn't the way he defeated his foes. He overpowered them. Physically. He didn't outmaneuver them, nor did he display the ability to use only his speed, as you claim Sidious uses, and defeat his opponents via that. Either Sidious' speed is just that good, or he had some technical ability to back it up with. You decide.

Also, remember that Bane's orbalisks might pose a certain disadvantage to him; he can get cocky, and not even think about defending his own body from an adversary as skilled as Sidious, possibly giving Sidious the ability to outmaneuver him with a burst of lightning or somehow cut off his hand. If Johun could nearly do it, I think it's not far-fetched to say that Sidious could possibly do it.

I'd like to ask you a question, Nebaris, and I hope I'll get an honest response (thought I doubt I will); if Nick Gillard said "Most of the swordsman we see in the films are 8's or 9's, but Sidious isn't very good with a saber. He only ranks as a 6", would you consider his word canon? For some reason, I believe you would use it in your arguments.

Nebaris, as I can make a vague guess and say that you're a believer of "Every random Ancient Sith > Sidious", then tell me; how come is Darth Traya's word on Ancient Sith being teh uberz is canon, but NEC claming Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord in history? Please. And what about the Dark Empire sourcebook claiming Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord in history? How about one of the Ancient Sith Lords in Empire's End saying that Sidious is the most powerful? How about the quote claiming Sidious to be the "Greatest master of evil to ever use the Sith power?" Fallible third parties, I suppose.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Strawman.

Constantly saying 'Strawman Fallacy' and stuff like that, Nebaris, does not make you look intelligent. If you were, indeed, as intelligent as you claim to be, you would have realized that Gideon and Lightsnake are curbstomping you in this debate.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy

😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

Sidi-boy, Smallville's Clark Kent would give Bruce Lee a royal ass kicking in a fist fight. Does that make him the finer or greater martial artist?

I'm sorry, but if you really can't see that how fine or great a swordsman is is speaking purely in the basest sense, then you're an idiot.

And again, all that Sidious did is impale his opponents in one fluid motion. Purely speed; no more, no less. All that was unpredictable about the entire thing was that Sidious would be able to move at such speeds. That's it. He didn't twist around in mid air, or use some complex motion that would have made his manoeuvre technically unpredictable, so drop it.

Lastly, does even the most basic language elude your comprehension? I've quite effectively already established that what Sidious displayed was in fact purely testament to speed, and that Bane has actually matched it, if not beaten it, in his displays against Raskta and Farfalla.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior
Sidi-boy, Smallville's Clark Kent would give Bruce Lee a royal ass kicking in a fist fight. Does that make him the finer or greater martial artist?

I'm sorry, but if you really can't see that how fine or great a swordsman is is speaking purely in the basest sense, then you're an idiot.

And again, all that Sidious did is impale his opponents in one fluid motion. Purely speed; no more, no less. All that was unpredictable about the entire thing was that Sidious would be able to move at such speeds. That's it. He didn't twist around in mid air, or use some complex motion that would have made his manoeuvre technically unpredictable, so drop it.

Lastly, does even the most basic language elude your comprehension? I've quite effectively already established that what Sidious displayed was in fact purely testament to speed, and that Bane has actually matched it, if not beaten it, in his displays against Raskta and Farfalla.

There's a significant difference between "Greater" and more "Skillful"; you see, there's a difference between the two. For example, see the dictionary definition of them:

"Skillful": Possessing or exercising skill; expert

"Great": notable; remarkable; exceptionally outstanding

This is an example. Anakin is a greater swordsman than Dooku, but Dooku is more skillful. They were called 'greater' swordsman; of course, I know you're going to insist on saying that "It was a reference to their technical skill", but being a great swordsman is also a reference to how well you execute your style. Your speed, your strength, your reflexes.

For your question, Nebaris, Clark Kent is a greater fistfighter than Bruce Lee but Bruce Lee is more skillful. Now then; if one was to say "Bruce Lee is the most skillful fistfighter ever", it would be a reference to his technical skill. However, if one was to say "Bruce Lee is the greatest fistfighter in history", or the "Best fistfighter in history", it would clearly be a different reference, this time to his overall skill. They were called the 'greatest', period. It wasn't a reference only to their technical skill.

Also, perhaps Sidious' corkscew movement had anything to do with it? Who knows? It's as much a reference to how well he could perform the stab, making it impossible to be blocked.

Or, if we are to take your account, than how about you logically explain to me how come Sidious was capable of using speed that so vastly outstripped powerful Jedi Masters. Especially Kolar; if you would note, Kolar completely outclassed Quinlan Vos in combat, when Quinlan was noted to be an exceptional fighter and combatant. If Sidious outclassed him so thoroughly in terms of speed, how do you explain Bane could not do that to anyone he face?

You're arguing with a retarded outcast. Just mock him, he'll go away (or get banned).

It's difficult, but... *urgh*... I'll try.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
There's a significant difference between "Greater" and more "Skillful"; you see, there's a difference between the two. For example, see the dictionary definition of them:

"Skillful": Possessing or exercising skill; expert

"Great": notable; remarkable; exceptionally outstanding

I'm not saying that your definition of the word is wrong, but how you apply it.

This was pointless.

For your question, Nebaris, Clark Kent is a greater fistfighter than Bruce Lee but Bruce Lee is more skillful. Now then; if one was to say "Bruce Lee is the most skillful fistfighter ever", it would be a reference to his technical skill. However, if one was to say "Bruce Lee is the greatest fistfighter in history", or the "Best fistfighter in history", it would clearly be a different reference, this time to his overall skill. They were called the 'greatest', period. It wasn't a reference only to their technical skill.

No, I said martial artist, not "fistfighter" and this here lies exactly where you're going wrong.

A swordsman, or martial artist, is defined as the person who practises the art form itself. Not with respect to how they apply that in combat, or against another swordsman or martial artist, but simply how good they are at it. How quick or strong a swordsbeing or martial artist is, has nothing to do with how good they are at using the weapon itself, but how well they might be able to apply it in a battle situation.

Now, if it was said that they were some of the greatest duelists the Order had ever produced, then you would be correct. How great or fine a person it at an artform is completely specific to the artform, as I said. A duelist is defined as a person who participates in duels; the tools that enable their success in their vocation is of course very specific to what they are, thus, how great or fine a duelist is fully takes into account their speed, strength, and technique, as they all play their part, and the same goes for a "fistfighter."

However, you quite simply don't label a swordsman, or a martial artist great or fine with respect to how they're able to apply it in combat, or against others. That doesn't tell you how fine or great they are at what they do, but how fine or great they are at doing what they do in an undefined situation.

Also, perhaps Sidious' corkscew movement had anything to do with it? Who knows? It's as much a reference to how well he could perform the stab, making it impossible to be blocked.

Good Lord, what is it with Sidious fanboys and being idiotically persistent?

He jumped at the Masters, impaled Agen, and span around and slashed across Saesee's body. All fluid motions, and it's made explicitly clear that they simply weren't enable to react in time (Agen wasn't even directly looking at him, and Saesee's lightsaber was still held in its neutral stance). There was no unpredictable saber technique used whatsoever, now drop the point.

Or, if we are to take your account, than how about you logically explain to me how come Sidious was capable of using speed that so vastly outstripped powerful Jedi Masters. Especially Kolar; if you would note, Kolar completely outclassed Quinlan Vos in combat, when Quinlan was noted to be an exceptional fighter and combatant. If Sidious outclassed him so thoroughly in terms of speed, how do you explain Bane could not do that to anyone he face?

Constantly ignoring my points doesn't mean that they're not there. Bane did completely outclass virtually everyone he faced in speed, from Sirak and Zannah, to Farfalla and Raskta. He would have been able to replicate Sidious' feat of speed against Agen and Saesee to Raskta and Farfalla without the aid of a lightsaber if not for the concentrated and considerable Battle Meditation of a talented Master of the ability. He moved well beyond was Sirak was capable of keeping up with when he owned his ass (and Sirak was the top apprentice behind Bane; the apprentices were recognised as the strongest within the Order on page 193 of PoD, and this was the most militaristic Order of Sith ever, that numbered 20,000).

Stfu Noobaris you've been pwned.

When apprentices represent the strongest of an order, to the point when most of them are described as little but 'pathetic,' then you know your order leaves a lot to be desired, particularly when you'll note how Kaan had managed to screw it up so completely.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
When apprentices represent the strongest of an order, to the point when most of them are described as little but 'pathetic,' then you know your order leaves a lot to be desired, particularly when you'll note how Kaan had managed to screw it up so completely.

I...wasn't referring to that. And, yeah he could, actually. Three sabers isn't exactly special in regards to combat, Sion's immortality is what we call 'negatable,' and wowsers, Nihilus can destroy worlds 'by speaking?' Good thing it's not sometihng he has any control over and in combat, he's a pushover.

And it's just how Nebaris loves to crow how AWESOME the Brotherhood of Darkness was. Ignoring that it wasn't an impressive organization at all that had to make a bunch of apprentices 'lords' since they were getting their asses kicked by a force they outnumbered 2 to 1

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You're arguing with a retarded outcast. Just mock him, he'll go away (or get banned).

Give it a rest, td.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Good thing it's not sometihng he has any control over and in combat, he's a pushover.

This is less than I ordinarily would've expected from you.

Since it's Nebaris I wasn't exactly attempting to be fair or balanced...

While, granted, Nihilus can focus his severing technique on individuals, his ability to use it on massive scales at random is...questionable as I'm rather sure Traya says it's not something that he can control at will, IIRC.

As for Nihilus's combat skills, I'm not placing too high a stock in them. While his force powers are prodigious, given his way of perception, he's usually incapable of perceiving individuals and thus not likely to focus on individual combat. Something needs to be significant just to draw Nihilus's attention...and rather than 'draining,' I believe it's said he severs life from the force and gains sustenance from the death provided

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Since it's Nebaris I wasn't exactly attempting to be fair or balanced...

While, granted, Nihilus can focus his severing technique on individuals, his ability to use it on massive scales at random is...questionable as I'm rather sure Traya says it's not something that he can control at will, IIRC.

As for Nihilus's combat skills, I'm not placing too high a stock in them.

While his force powers are prodigious, given his way of perception, he's usually incapable of perceiving individuals and thus not likely to focus on individual combat. Something needs to be significant just to draw Nihilus's attention...

and rather than 'draining,' I believe it's said he severs life from the force and gains sustenance from the death provided

Originally posted by Faunus
Fair enough, as you've been dealing with him far longer than I have, but it doesn't help to toss in weak arguments of your own, especially when you're capable of doing better. If you really feel that way, then just don't reply to him

This is correct: my mistake.

On the subject of Bane, by the by, I will admit he is an exceptionally powerful Sith and likely one of the best duelists the galaxy had ever seen, but for a few details:
1. It is noted that Raskta manages to hold him at bay herself, even though she is empowered by Worror's battle meditation, she tells Farfalla to stay back as he's being more of a hindrance than a help.

2. Bane's advantage with the orbalisk means he's able to fight without any measure of self preservation and create a massive advantage as he towered over all the Jedi, save Sarro who was busy with Zannah (And would have killed her, except for Farfalla actually bringing Johun for some reason that will forever remain unexplained...) If, for instance, it was Farfalla or Raskta to take the strike against Bane's wrist, likely it would've done more than briefly render his hand useless and allow him to blast them all aside. And he kills Farfalla by knocking Farfalla's saber aside with his arm first. Also, recall Vader is, in Order 66, able to contend with three to four Jedi knights and masters simultaneously as well

3. Earlier in Ro2, we see Bane brought down by the Umbaran Shadow Assassins briefly, and while some of this is no doubt due to the force pike effect on the orbalisks, and Bane kills several first, they do manage to outmaneuver him and might have finished him if they didn't stop the assault

4. Part of Bane's advantage as well, besides his physical strength, is his unfamiliar dueling style to the Jedi, given the curved hilt saber Kas'im gave him...this isn't an advantage he'd have over, say, Yoda or Mace-both of whom had known, trained with and dueled Dooku. As Kas'im says: it's not the weapon's superiority, but rather the unfamiliarity such a weapon presents to the opponent that's the advantage.

Bane's advantages are a bit nullified by Mace and Yoda especially...Bane's height, speed and strength can be matched by Yoda and Mace, and his overwhelming power in the Dark Side is matched by their power in the opposite, as well as Mace's shatterpoint ability which can likely open Bane to a Cho Mai...as for Palpatine, he's on par with the aforementioned two and has an advantage over Bane of having trained with Bane's holocron, likely from an early age, that, as he see from the Legacy comics, shows Bane with all his knowledge therein and the orbalisks explained. That trio are pretty decent matchups for Bane, I'd say.

On a sidenote, I kind of admit to being really disappointed with Karpyshyn having to Gary Stuify Bane at every turn....and Farfalla deciding to randomly take the nearest Jedi, including Johun, who's kind of responsible for getting the team slaughtered...you know you suck when your opponent doesn't take a chance to kill you because you hurt your team more than the enemy...) without leaving so much as a recording or Johun behind to explain things....I mean, honestly...and what the HELL was up with the Jedi deciding "Well, that crazy young man with no abilities whatsoever who couldn't be more than 20 must have been the surviving Sith Lord who killed Raskta, Sarro, Johun, Farfalla and Worror all at once! Let's go, no need to search the place!"

Ah yes Faunus the peacemaker I forgot, I guess the most logical thing to do with Noobaris is to be the bigger man. That's worked out all of zero times. The only way he disappears is if you constantly badger him.

Nebaris likes attention. Don't give it to him. Just put him on ignore, DS

Originally posted by Noscopever
If you haven't noticed, nobody is talking about Kaan here, and its completely off-topic. Now as for Sideous, he could not possibly take on 3 floating lightsabers, an immortal through the force, and a sith lord who can destroy worlds just by speaking. Maybe with Bane, but alone it's rather impossible.

And what bearing do you, Noscopever, have on this argument? Unless, of course, you're Nebaris.

While I now believe that Traya and Nihilus can stand up Sidious in terms of force abilities, but you have to remember that Sidious has saber skills that are significantly above their's; it's true Nihilus and Traya don't favor the usages of the saber, but Sidious is incredibly fast and can likely close up on them (if he's fighting one) and obliterate them in a lightsaber duel. And then again, you have his extremely powerful lightning to use; I think it could match with their drain. Sidious was capable of affecting the minds of the entire population of Coruscant with a ritual.

You have to consider the possibility that Nihilus used a prolonged ritual in order to drain the planet. Not saying it happened, but it's a possibility.

Calling Sion an 'immortal' is rather premature. There's no indication of him being able to survive decapacitation, nor a powerful burst of dark side energy; Sidious' lightning was capable of disintergrating people, and I doubt Sion can survive disintergration. There's no indication of him being particularly good in lightsaber combat, either. Out of the entire triumvirate, I'd say that Sion is the only that Sidious comfortably beats. The others, particularly Nihilus, will give him a very hard time, especially in a force duel.

Oh, wait a second. Were you referring to Sidious against the three of them at once? If so, I completely agree. I thought you were referring to them in a one-on-one context.