The kotor 2 triumvirate vs rots siddious

Started by Sidi-Boy13 pages
Originally posted by Gideon
Absolutely not, as Kenobi himself would later muse in Labyrinth of Evil, Count Dooku acted in a manner that suggested that he wanted to remain on Geonosis a little longer, to demonstrate his "superiority" to the Jedi. Dooku was screwing around with Obi-Wan the entire time; the only time Dooku had to work for his win was when Anakin attacked him the second time on Geonosis.

I see. If this is true, then I will concede the point.

Do you mean that Anakin gave Dooku more of a challenge than Obi-Wan did on Genosis? Odd. I always figured that Obi and Anakin were equals during the events of AotC.

However, the fact still remains that if this is true- and it probably is- then I still find it to be somewhat illogical that Dooku could've owned Obi-Wan in the space of 5 seconds, like Sidious did to Kit Fisto- who was said to be superior to a somewhat stronger Obi-Wan, and had two more years of experience under his belt. Of course, what you say does make my point less impressive, but it still exists.

Btw, I do not in any way imply that Kit, circa RotS, would win over RotS Obi; Obi should pretty much own him during the events of RotS.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
You stated 'five times'. Now then, you say 'three' times; which is far more realistic, and would still place Bane's amount of strikes- supposedly 3 an eye blink- at 9 strikes per second. Grievous did more than double that amount,

Apparently I was temporarily high or something, I don't know why I was saying that, but no, as I originally said, the average human can blink about five times a second (as long as it's done rapidly in quick succession). The single act of blinking generally takes about .2 seconds. Scientific fact, you can't argue with it.

and all he was is a a particularly uber droid.

Well firstly, Grievous wielded four blades in complete accordance with eachother, so if you want to get technical, each blade would only have to have been moving with the speed of five strikes a second, and again, the fact that he was a droid doesn't change the fact that he was faster than almost anybody else in his era. Obi-Wan certainly never marvelled at Anakin's speed quite like he did Grievous', and Anakin was one of the fastest Jedi around. It's likely only Sidious, Yoda, and Mace were capable of greater speeds.

Lol. In the heat of his duel with Mace, Sidious was described as a 'shadow', a 'blur of speed', impossible to see from Anakin's point of view; as you see, he at least matches Bane in that area. Just because you're totally infatuated with Bane doesn't make his feats considerably greater than anyone's else- and guess what? THEY AREN'T.

1. You can pretend it's canon all you want Sidi-Boy, but the facts are that the movie, the highest form of canon, completely and directly contradicts that entire segment of the fight scene, and no further effort is made to make it seem as if Sidious was still moving at such speed regardless. Stop using N-Canon material as evidence.

2. As I've already said, superior Force users to Anakin like Kas'im were completely incapable of making out Bane's movements, and this while Bane was still pretty much the equivalent of a youngling in terms of training.

Also, note that in actual combat, the speed of your strikes, not necessarily the speed of your movement, is what really matters; and Bane couldn't even match Grievous in this category.

1. Again, Grievous wielded four blades in accordance with each other, and thus, each blade would have only been moving with the speed of one saber making five strikes a second (which is << 3 strikes in a blink of an eye, let alone moving your entire body at such considerable speeds along with it), and Grievous is hardly a slouch when it comes to speed anyway.

2. They're both important, and they both matter. There's a reason why such emphasis is placed on footwork in any art of swordfighting -- it makes it easier to move around your opponent (and thus, catching him off balance and finding an opening), and gives you better control over the direction of the battle. Then of course there's the speed of your body movements, which has everything to do with dodging your opponent's attacks, and succesfully landing melee attack on your opponent. It's how quickly your arm moves that dictates the speed of the lightsaber itself. It clearly matters.

3. Anyway, ignoring all of that, I wasn't saying that the speed of your body would matter more in a fight that the speed of your weapon, like you appear to think, but that moving your entire body faster than the eye can see displays a far greater capacity for speed than simply moving a much smaller object in the form of a lightsaber in such a way. It's testament to greater speed.

Sidious- blur of speed, a mere 'shadow', capable of moving beyond what Leia could even hope to perceive, and force sensitivity does not grant you increased eye sight- as much, as you like it, Sidious matched Bane in this category, if not surpassed him.

Repeating failed points again and again don't make them any less moronic.

As I've already told you, it's how well your brain can keep up with movements that matters, not your eyesight.

And as you see, Sidious moved at the same speeds; and in actual combat, what do you think matters more? The speed of your charges at the opponent, or rather the speed of your attacks?

Probably the speed of your attacks, however, see above. You quite clearly completely missed my point.

Wonderful. The fact of the matter is- they were all highly trained swordsmen and were called some of the best swordsbeings in the history of the friggin' Jedi Order- the history of the Jedi Order, incidentally, also includes the Army of Light. They should have been able to perceive Sidious' intentions with the force and detect his movements; of course they allowed him to make the first move, giving him ample time to actual display his lightsaber in front of them. They were all fine and powerful swordsman; sure, he was significantly faster than them, but the fact of the matter his, his skill and speed were simply too much for them. Yes, these Jedi, who are considered to be highly powerful, were absolutely curbstomped by Sidious in combat.

This is all compeltely irrelevant to the point I was making. Everything that I was saying stands, stop replying to it with worthless points.

Err... yeah, he decided where to strike them in the absolute fastest, most unpredictable manner; as you see, Sidious was a 'master of every weapon and every form', and thus had the ability to constantly change the flow of his attacks; his speed and unpredictability simply overwhelmed the Jedi. Of course it's also a display of technical skill; actually being able to launch a sufficiently unpredictable strike that was beyond the ability of highly trained swordsman to block is an indication of a high level of swordsmanship.

1. Nick Gillard is not a canon source, stop treating his words as such. He's a stunt co-ordinator, he has no bearing whatsoever on canon, and until you can prove that GL fully agrees with what he's been saying, stop treaing his words as gospel.

2. There was no technique, or "unpredictability," or anything other than speed displayed during the entire maneuvre. He simply impaled them before they could respond and protect themselves. That's speed, and speed alone; again, stop replying to my points with worthless gibberish.

As much as you to pretend it is not so, swordsmanship is not just about technical skill- their legendary lightsaber abilities were note just about how 'skillful' they were, but rather how good they were in terms of overall swordsmanship; and part of fighting with a lightsaber is sensing your opponent and being capable of handling his speed and unpredictability. They failed; Sidious absolutely curbstomped them in both saber abilities and his force-enhanced physical powers. It's nowhere not as impressive as you think.

Again, when you talk about how great or fine something is, you're being very specific to the something in question itself. Speed, strength, reflexes, agility etc. are not in any way specific to swordsmanship.

Now, seeing as you're the who's trying to make a point out of Sidious speed blitzing those Masters, the burden of proof falls on you to prove up on your idiotic assertions that how "fine" or "great" a swordsman is takes into acount factors that aren't specific to being a swordsman.

Lol. Of course he owned AotC Obi-Wan;

Well there goes your point then. By your own admission, he "owned" him. You were originally trying to argue that AotC Obi-Wan was somewhat close to Dooku based on how well he did against him, and by extension, Kit Fisto as well, and that Sidious had somehow owned someone close to Count Dooku in ability in seconds. Now that you've accepted that Obi-Wan got "owned," clearly you can see that you had no real point to begin with, and that bringing up Dooku and forming one of the most idiotic ABC arguments that have likely ever been formed on this forum was an exceptionally idiotic move on your part.

but let's face the truth. Obi-Wan was an obstacle in his path to getting away. Dooku had perfect knowledge of the fact that he had to get away as quickly as possible. Having incapacitated Anakin, he most likely would do his best to get away as soon as possible. Unless he's a complete moron- which he's not- he should have done his best to kill Obi-Wan as fast as possible.

Or perhaps he knew that he could spare the few moments he took to toy with and humiliate Obi-Wan (he would have been able to most likely sense any approaching vehicles via the Force), and didn't anticipate Anakin Skywalker getting back up and joining the battle, allowing Yoda's vessel enough time to reach the hanger before Dooku had left.

We don't truly know his real motivations either way (perhaps he didn't believe anyone else would be able to stop him; he did believe he was the most powerful Jedi there was after all), and you can't prove that it really would have taken him any noticeable amount of time to take Obi-Wan down, meaning, as always, you still have no real point. But really, you just admitted to Obi-Wan being "owned," so why are you still arguing?

According to Anakin, "There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace was cutting loose" in his duel against Sidious, which would mean that Mace let go of his Jedi teachings and do his best to kill Sidious; yes, kill Sidious.

According to Anakin, he didn't even see Mace dueling Sidious, and no, N-Canon material isn't the equivalent of a Marvel "What If?" story. You can't say it's what Anakin would have been thinking to himself if he had been watching them, you can't say anything about it; it's N-Canon material, completely inadmissable as evidence.

Now, and as I was saying, you're the one who originally brought up how Palpatine performed against these Masters to make a point, so the burden of proof falls on you to prove that Mace was actually going all out on him, and not restraining himself. He did disarm him with a kick after all; while it's possible that it was the only opening he had been able to find the entire duel, it further makes it seem more likely that he truly was just going for the capture. He only displays the real need to kill Sidious after Sidious had unleashed his lethal lightning on him. Now prove up.

Also, how exactly did they use extremely poor tactics? Or poor teamwork? Sidious simply overwhelmed them with his speed and unpredictability; Mace could do little to prevent the death of his comrades. Of course, he went in for the kill pretty quick, but Sidious blocked it and engaged him and Kit Fisto in combat. Sidious promptly WTFpwned Kit and proceeded to force him back.

I already explained it quite clearly Sidi, if you still don't get it, you might as well stop arguing.

1. The Masters didn't initiate the attack against a potentially extremely dangerous opponent. They allowed him the first move, and Sidious was in turn able to take out both Agen and Saesee one at a time. They displayed no real cohesive ability whatsoever, and really, none of the entire group of Jedi had ever fought along side another Jedi against a a lgithsaber wielding Force User. It was a compeltely new experience for them, they simply weren't used to fighting against such an opponent as a team.

2. The Masters that went after Bane however, were working under far better tactics, having one Master sit back and apply Battle Meditation (which naturally makes them work better as a team), initating the attack, playing to their strengths (having Raska take the offensive with her lightsabers, and having Farfalla stay back, gathering his energies for a Force assualt), both ready to help defend the other from a Force assualt, and you even had them giving eachother insight into all that they knew about their enemy (the knowledge of his hooked lightsaber hilt, the gaps in the orbalisks to name a couple of examples). All in all, they worked much better tactically as a team than the Masters that went to arrest Sidious (another key point, these Masters were going for the kill).

As for your claim that Palpatine "proceeded to force him back," start watching from 48 seconds: youtube.kom/watch?v=pRNUMAztVHc

Mace quite clearly took the initiative and chose to move down that corridor. He wasn't being forced back in any way.

Right then. If we ignore the possibility that Sidious lost the duel intentionally,

Seering as it's your burden of proof, and you cannnot prove it, then yes, that's what we do.

then you'll have to take into account that the only way Mace could even match Sidious was by copying Sidious' speed and hatred via Vaapad's special abilities. Without it; say, if Sidious had all of his abilities, but was a lightsider- then Mace would've been subsequently crushed in lightsaber combat.

Your point? That's part of what makes Mace Windu, Mace Windu. Without Vaapad, the only real ability that would make him stand out is Shatterpoint, and even then it's something that's far more practical on still objects (such as the Corusca Jem) and it's something he displayed extreme difficulty in finding against Force Users in a moving situation (it took him several minyutes to find Depa's for instance).

Even with that, Mace could not overpower Sidious in combat and was being overwhelmed, as indicated by his facial expressions on the ledge; the only way he could gain the upper hand was via his shatterpoint ability.

There's no indication given whatsoever that it took the Shatterpoint ability to take him down. And even if it did, so what? It would be a legitimate takedown, and he was being overhwlmed for about two seconds, and then immediately disarmed him with a kick.

No matter how you look at it, Mace won fair and square, and this while possibly restrainign himself from going for a killing blow.

[quote]And it so happens that Bane doesn't have either shatterpoint or Vaapad;

He does have Shatterpoint actually, as he displays against Sirak when he probes for weaknesses with the Force. While almost definitely not on the level of Mace's, he does have it, but anyway, what point are you trying to make? You don't need to possess both a talent in Shatterpoint and mastery of Vaapad to be better than Sidious. Bane possesses advantages over the Sith Lord that Mace doesn't. Based on what they've displayed, he's easily faster (as demonstrated against Sirak, when he was miles away from being as quick as he would be by Ro2 with the Orbalisk Armour), has better Force control (as demonstrated by his subatomic alterations with the Force), has greater developed Force power (as demonstrated by his planetary level showings), is physically much better conditioned ("mountain of muscle" vs. frail old man?), and possesses the orbalisk armour, giving him a large number of boosts (physical, mental, and to the Force as well), extreme healing capabilities, protection to his entire body (with the exception of his head), and on top of all of that, enables Bane to fight without the need of self preservation, meaning he can integrate kicks and punches into his offence without needing to protect his limbs, block attacks with any part of his body, and nearly focus purely on the offence, only having to focus minimally on defence (to protect his head). His fighting style evolves around his armour, and Sidious has never fought anyone like him, meaning that Bane would be completely alien to him. There's also the fact that he fights with a hooked lightsaber handle, which Sidious can't be said to be very familiar with, adding even more to how unorthodox a fighter, and how unfamiliar Sidious would be with him in saber combat.

if he was to engage Mace in lightsaber combat, Mace would most likely defeat Bane.

Good luck proving that.

While the fact that he was being forced back intentionally can be implied, there are multiple ways to interpret that passage.

No. The "or" in "or so Farfalla thought" indicates that what Farfalla thought =/= what was actually the case.

Meaning, the idea that Bane was being forced back only appeared to be the case, and in fact, he was feigning weakness so as to get as close to Worror as he could before deciding to take him down.

My personal interpretation is that Raskta was overwhelming him, and realizing that Worror was empowering her, he quickly made for him to eliminate him, thus reducing Raskta's advantage in combat. Also, 'or so Farfalla thought'- it's possible that while Raskta might've gained a genuine advantage over him, but he realized its reason and thus went to kill Worror.

Well you're wrong, as is evident by the passage.

Also- I'm not saying that Raskta, on even ground, is capable of achieving victory over Bane.

If, by even ground, you mean one on one, without Battle meditation on her side, then she wouldn't stand a chance against him.

'Extremely very?'

LOL. Still way smoother than "merely simply."

Kit, Saesee, and Kolar were also called some of the best swordsmen in the history of the Order, and were just involved in the single most destructive conflict in history up until that point; they all gained plenty of experience, and it so happens that over the time, the Jedi would logically improve and further study, develop their techniques and all; Farfalla, while probably powerful, was not likely as powerful as Mace's team.

Since when was the Clone Wars the single most destructive conflict in History?

The New Jedi-Sith Wars had been going on for a thousand years, saw a consistent decline in Republic Power as mineral mines ran dry and thousands of megacorporations went bankrupt, saw Republic borders beginning to shrink for the first time in millenia as colony worlds dried up and were abandonned, and featured such disasters as the destruction of the Ubese homeworld that made the planet inhospitable and forced its survivors to live the rest of their days under filtration helmets and the outbreak of the Candorian Plague that that killed off as much as two thirds of the civilians of some major highly pupulated centers. The Jedi were plagued by scandal, hardship bred lawlesness, and the final hundred years were known as the Republic's Dark Dage, where the Republic could no longer afford to maintain its communication network, dropping all settlements outside the Core off the grid and forcing them to rely on Hyperspace courier ships. The Sith were known to have grown exponentially strong during the period, ravaging numerous star systems, and Jedi casualties had grown so high that Jedi Scouts were now taking in any children with even a hint of Force Sensitivity.

The New Jedi-Sith War was far more destructive than the Clone Wars, especially in respect to the Jedi, Sith and Republic.

In terms of battle experience, the Jedi in the Army of Light were born into such a War, fought in it for nearly their entire life, and regularly met dark side lightsaber wielding Force users in combat.

The PT Jedi, on the other hand, only fought in a war that lasted just three years, facing minimal action against Dark Jedi or Sith if any.

And while it's possible that they may have developed and refined techniques over the thousand years that followed, until you can prove that they even felt the need to (what with the Jedi's new role as ambassadors, their turning away from their militancy, due to the believed end of the Sith threat), all it amounts to is blind supposition.

(All of what I mentioned can be found on page 26 of the 2005 Chronology for the record.)

Of course, the BM can be taken into account;

And given how Farfalla described it, and the effect it had on Johun when it was not being used, it's uite clear that it was pretty considerable (I would provide the quotes, but Faunus already did, so no need).

and while Farfalla's form was called 'perfect', it's likely that this BM doesn't increase one's technical ability, but rather their speed, reflexes, and strength;

As I know; I was making a case for how considerable he was without the BM. Something else I just found out about him as well: on the same page of the 2005 Chronology, it was stated that the Jedi had raised three champions (which most certainly is indicative of power) and that along with Hoth and Kiel Charney, he was one of them. It really is quite clear that he was exceptionally powerful, he may have even been more powerful than Raskta (while obviously inferior in saber ability, far superior with the Force).

of course it made him more formidable, but a simple, ordinary BM won't nearly be enough to empower someone to an ability that he can clearly surpass his superiors.

Simple, ordinary BM? Worror, who was extremely powerful, was described as an absolute Master of it, and a talanted veteran of the ability, and Farfalla was taken aback by the extent that it had been empowering him by, and Johun felt the negative effects of no longer receiving its benefits quite strongly. It was far from simple, ordinary BM, and would logically make a Force far more poweful than they usually would be, and given that Farfalla, by virtue of all the evidence that has provided would logically at least be on their level without the effects of BM, with it, he's likely a level above -- more specifically, on the level of someone like Mace Windu, and it's made quite clear that he simply wasn't even close to being a match for Bane, with a lightsaber (when Bane and Farfalla initiated combat, Bane was capable of knocking his saber from his hand with one hit, and almost tore his arm off) or with the Force (Bane's attacks were described as tearing through Farfalla's defences, and even when gathering orce energies, he was only capable of overpowering Bane for a split second).

You're going to have to prove to me that Mace's team was not well-coordinated or had plenty of teamwork, as they had functioned before as a team and likely sparred together; Sidious simply overwhelmed them. With relative ease. No amount of teamwork could allow them to overcome Sidious' vast superiority over all of them save for Mace.

Already adressed this, and again, while they were known to have fought together before, never against a single dark side lightsaber wielding Force User.

Huh? Sure, Raskta had her 'rep', but Mace was capable of decimating massive armies of battle droids- actually super battle droids- with his bare hands.

Well if you're going to compare them by what they've demonstrated, Raskta's naturally going to be at a disadvantage given how outside of her reputation and how she performed against Bane, we know next to nothing about her, whereas Mace Windu has had numerous of his exploits documented.

However, where we can compare them: training, experience, and such, Raskta has him beaten by a mile. I'm not going to go into how the Army of Light's training and Battle Experience owns the shit out of the PT Jedi's, because I already have, numerous times, but Raskta's experience against the Sith was notable even within her Order, to the point that she was known to have slain more Sith than even the Thought Bomb. She was also regarded as the greatest Jedi Swordsman of her era, and a more impressive era than Mace's at that. Her speed was also clearly exceptional (at least under the effects of BM), given how she was perceived by Johun -- who while pretty weak, was a trained Force userm -- to appear to be everywhere at once -- in front of Bane, behind him, and at either side. She's at the very least on Mace's level, and with the benefits of BM, quite possibly even better, or at least not too far behind.

And yet Bane was able to move at such a speed that he was capable of running at her, and almost crushing her under the wieght of his movement, failing to do so only due to a last instant evasion from the exceptional Jedi Weapons Master, and even when both her, Farfalla, and Johun (who Raskta was able to fight in concert with) were all simultaneously attacking him, they still didn't even come close to landing a blow on the one unprotected spot on his body.

He was called one of the deadliest Jedi in history, and was the only known master of the form that was called the deadliest; it also happens that the same form allowed him to reflect the attributes of a dark sider back at him. He was also in possession of more experience than Raskta, more knowledge, more respect- as attributed by his senior position on the council and his legendary reputation- and also has possession of the shatterpoint ability. Yeah, he's far more formidable than Raskta.

While I won't deny that he was probably one of the deadliest Jedi ever, it's never stated, and as established, Raskta possessed miles more experience than he did, especially in respect to other lightsaber wielding Force Users. Your assertion that Mace was more respected remains completely unproven; sure he was respected, yet Raskta was clearly very well respected within her Order as well; the other Jedi that fought with her against Bane were literally in awe of the ability she was displaying in battle, she was renowned as being the greatest swordsbeing of her Age, and Farfalla, powerful Jedi Champion, basically let her order him around during the fight without hesitation. Shatterpoint, as I said, isn't even that super effective in moving situations (such as lightsaber duels), and you have yet to substantiate the effects of Vaapad. Sure we know that it allows Mace to draw from his opponent's dark side power, and reflect it back at them, but to what degree? Is there an upper limit to its effects? Diminishing returns? Until you actually manage to substantiate the form's effects, as well as all that other stuff you just brought up, saying that he's far more powerful than Raskta is nothing more than arguing from personal incredulity.

I don't get it. Kit is stronger than Farfalla, Mace is stronger than Raskta; and Sidious still performed much better against them- and they are likely to be a coordinated team- than Bane did against Farfalla and Raskta. While it's true that Sidious was defeated by Mace, you'll have to take into account the circumstance that enabled Mace to win and the fact that Sidious was forcing him back and almost overwhelming him the entire time; Raskta and Farfalla, meanwhile, overwhelmed Bane and prevented him from launching a sufficiently good counter-offensive.

Really, I've adressed all of this. Bane performed a far better offence that Sidious did in his battle with the Masters, and it's made explicitly clear that they never even came close to harming him. Sidious stands no chance against Bane, only DE Sidious does, and even then he still loses in an extremely close battle.

And yes b1tches, that's right, I am now officially >>> the spellcheck button.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Two characters who've shown us nothing in saber combat? Please

So what was Sion's one hit takedown of Kreia then?

Her not fighting back, obviously?

And Bane performed a 'far better offense?' So he killed three of the 'best swordsmen the Order had ever known' before even Mace Windu could react? you jest.

Really, why do I bother? You'll just introduce the same old fanboyism and lies. On ignore.

I'm utterly baffled by the ridiculous logic you subscribe to in order to try to make your point, Nebaris. "LOLZ Raskta was born in a more militant time period and was respected ergo she is on par or better than Mace Windu!!1!" -- that's a total crock. Militant = better? LOL. According to the omniscient narrator, Yoda was the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known [more powerful than Raskta, I'm afraid], and yet he existed during the prequel trilogy and was responsible for the training of beings such as Dooku and Windu. Second, we have the likes of Windu and Dooku to account for; Dooku was considered to have been the most bitter loss of the Lost Twenty [due to his great strength in the Force] and the Temple's greatest student by Master Yoda -- not to mention the fact how he was considered "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty five thousand year history" and "an even greater Lord of the Sith". Windu was the creator of the deadliest lightsaber form, a form that in order to master, one had to be a "high end master of multiple forms" along with Sora Bulq [who, according to the databank, was one of the greatest and most talented lightsaber instructors the Order had ever seen and he "perfected" all of the various forms] and was stated many times to be a celebrated swordsmen and "one of the greatest [swordsmen] in the history of the Old Republic" according to the Ultimate Visual Guide. Four beings right there who kick the total shit out of any and all of the Army of Light's finest.

Lol, Gideon, expect him to post something like "databank isn't canon!!11!!", or maybe that somehow Raskta is superior to Mace; after all, she must be the strongest person imaginable if Bane's breath did not kill her! Bane's uberz!!!

Nebaris, You're so unreasonable and blinded by your complete love of Bane that you simply cannot debate objectively. I'm going to stop arguing with you now; people were right. It's impossible to reason with you.

Sidious stands no chance against Bane? Laughable. DE Sidious would lose to Bane? Even more laughable.

I suppose you ignoring the vast amount of evidence pointing to Sidious' superiority over Bane- such as the multiple quotes (DSSB, NEC, Dark Empire Sourcebook, Death Star Rising, etc, etc, etc...) claiming Sidious to be teh uberz. Now then, Nebaris, if I might askyou a question; why the hell do you hate Sidious so much? Admittedly, I like Sidious, but unlike your case with Bane, I don't think he can 'pwn all!!!' nor is he completely unrivaled.

And Nebaris, NG, having worked closely with GL is a very canon source; in fact, he is far more canon than Traya saying "Ancient Sith >>>> All else". Or is he a Sidious fanboy? Lol. The novel's descriptions of speed are still very much canon, and as stated, the speed in the novels do not contradict the movie's. GL intended Sidious to be teh shit with the saber and one of the fastest swordsmen in the galaxy; having personally reviewed the RotS Novel, and having worked closely with NG- both sources that boost Sidious' prowess with a lightsaber- he clearly intended Sidious to be one of the fastest and best swordsmen around. As much as you think that every quote claiming Sidious to be uber is non-canon automatically, it's not. Face it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Her not fighting back, obviously?

Well you generally can't fight "back" when your opponent takes you down in one hit, and doesn't allow it, however, if you're trying to claim that she in any way let Sion hit him, it's quite clearly not the case; she went into a battle stance, and really, why the hell would she willingly let someone slice off her hand?

And Bane performed a 'far better offense?'

That's what I said, yeah, try keeping up.

So he killed three of the 'best swordsmen the Order had ever known'

Irrelevant with respect to Agen and Saesee Tiin, given that they were taken down in a manner where their technical ability had been made completely worthless, and Bane displays even greater ability by failing to actually run down both Farfalla and Raskta due only to the reason that the benefits of powerful focused Battle meditation enabled them to evade him at the last possible instant.

As for Kit Fisto, sure, Palpatine's takedown of him was very impressive, however, Farfalla and Raskta's reputation and such indicate that they were easily on his level under normal circumstances, and given how much more powerful the BM made them, likely on Mace's level under the then current circumstances. It's worth noting that when empowered by Battle Meditation, Raskta was able to move at greater speeds than anyone within the PT era, and both of them displayed some of the greatest team work we've ever seen in Star Wars canon. Yet Bane was so dominant against them that Farfalla believed him too powerful for both of them, both physically and through the power of the Force, and felt that reinforcements were absolutely necessary against him.

before even Mace Windu could react?

Before Mace Windu could react? Hah, you jest.

Really, why do I bother? You'll just introduce the same old fanboyism and lies. On ignore.

Why do you bother? Hmmm, could it be because you take this too seriously? Or that you have nothing better to do? Hmmm.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior

Well you generally can't fight "back" when your opponent takes you down in one hit, and doesn't allow it, however, if you're trying to claim that she in any way let Sion hit him, it's quite clearly not the case; she went into a battle stance, and really, why the hell would she willingly let someone slice off her hand?

That's what I said, yeah, try keeping up.

Irrelevant with respect to Agen and Saesee Tiin, given that they were taken down in a manner where their technical ability had been made completely worthless, and Bane displays even greater ability by failing to actually run down both Farfalla and Raskta due only to the reason that the benefits of powerful focused Battle meditation enabled them to evade him at the last possible instant.

As for Kit Fisto, sure, Palpatine's takedown of him was very impressive, however, Farfalla and Raskta's reputation and such indicate that they were easily on his level under normal circumstances, and given how much more powerful the BM made them, likely on Mace's level under the then current circumstances. It's worth noting that when empowered by Battle Meditation, Raskta was able to move at greater speeds than anyone within the PT era, and both of them displayed some of the greatest team work we've ever seen in Star Wars canon. Yet Bane was so dominant against them that Farfalla believed him too powerful for both of them, both physically and through the power of the Force, and felt that reinforcements were absolutely necessary against him.

Before Mace Windu could react? Hah, you jest.

Why do you bother? Hmmm, could it be because you take this too seriously? Or that you have nothing better to do? Hmmm. [/B]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Was that really necessary?

Duh. Seriously, why wouldn't he have posted a weird pic of Hogan in response to a multi-paragraph argument that wasn't directed at him?

Why not indeed?

Originally posted by HomoSuperior

Why do you bother? Hmmm, could it be because you take this too seriously? Or that you have nothing better to do? Hmmm. [/B]

Lol neb this is ironic, this alone is coming from someone who gets banned 40+ times and one whom absolutely has no life and far too much time on his hands.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior

Well you generally can't fight "back" when your opponent takes you down in one hit, and doesn't allow it, however, if you're trying to claim that she in any way let Sion hit him, it's quite clearly not the case; she went into a battle stance, and really, why the hell would she willingly let someone slice off her hand?[/B]

He used speed on her!!!11!!! It's not about swordsmanship!!!

Lol, Nebaris, you're contradicting yourself so badly every single time time... pure comedy. When Sidious owns Jedi Masters who were known and reputed to be highly skilled swordsman- and when they were backed up by Mace Windu, possibly the best swordsman in history up until that point (Bane, Sidious, and Yoda are some of his rivals...)- it's not impressive, 'cuz he 'used speed lolz'. But when Sion takes her by surprise, via a sneak-attack, it's very impressive. Especially when Traya is not known to be any good with a saber- in fact, she was a Sith Lord who clearly did not focus on usage of the lightsaber, but rather on her skills with the force- it's my personal belief that in pure sabers, anyone on Mace's team will kick the shit out of her. Of course, she'll beat them, but because of the force, and it so happens that the Traya at that point was recovering and was hardly even close to full power.

Sidious' takedown of the Jedi Masters is far, far more impressive than what Sion did.

Oh, and... WTF is that bullshit about Raskta moving faster than anyone in that PT era? The only quote supporting her power is that her blades moved to fast for the eye to see, and it happens that it was basically matched in every single high-level duel we've seen. Sidious, Mace, Yoda, and Grievous are all beings who can own her in terms of speed.

Yeah, the team that attacked Bane had good teamwork, but the team that attacked Sidious didn't even get a chance to use teamwork, because Sidious overwhelmed them and massacred them. The team that was backed up by Mace, called basically every time his name is mentioned to have 'deadly skill', called one of the deadliest Jedi in history, had the deadliest form, was able to pwn massive armies of droids by himself, and had the form that was best-suited to take down powerful dark-siders, like Sidious. He also had the extremely rare shatterpoint ability. Bane would lose to him, too.

And for the majority of the fight, Sidious was forcing Mace back, not the other way around; sure, for one segment of the fight, Mace was forcing Sidious back, but not for long, because Sidious soon regained the offensive- and look at Mace's face on the ledge, expressing difficulty, and showing that he was being basically overwhelmed by Sidious.

Something I don't get: somehow taking out three masters before they or Mace effing Windu can react to defend themselves...this requires no skill or ability, despite Mace's incredible ability in both....the guy who moves so fast people see multiple arms?

Yes, this requires no skill...nor does the ability he disarmed Darth "wipe out an entire army of the galaxy's greatest killers with negligible injuries and make one of the best duelists who ever lived realize how outclassed he was in seconds" Maul. One handed. With a training saber.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Something I don't get: somehow taking out three masters before they or Mace effing Windu can react to defend themselves...this requires no skill or ability, despite Mace's incredible ability in both....the guy who moves so fast people see multiple arms?

Yes, this requires no skill...nor does the ability he disarmed Darth "wipe out an entire army of the galaxy's greatest killers with negligible injuries and make one of the best duelists who ever lived realize how outclassed he was in seconds" Maul. One handed. With a training saber.

It's Nebaris. Don't try to get his logic.

Originally posted by HomoSuperior

Why do you bother? Hmmm, could it be because you take this too seriously? Or that you have nothing better to do? Hmmm. [/B]

dude... that's just embarrasing that you would put that as a response, considering the hundreds and hundreds of MASSIVE posts that you make on this website, over and over again, especially when NO ONE agrees with you. I've seen you make fun of typos. When you are making fun of typos in a "debate" (because calling this forum-posting real debate is a stretch as it is...) YOU are the one taking it too seriously.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Something I don't get:

Another thing to add to the list?

somehow taking out three masters before they or Mace effing Windu can react to defend themselves...this requires no skill or ability,

No technical ability, yes. Technique, as in mastery of the moves and sequences that come with the lightsaber forms, footwork, and stance, plays no part whatsoever when you simply jump at your opponent and move as quickly as you can to impale them before they can react.

It's pure speed, nothing more, nothing less.

Also, the point I was actually making was about the Masters, not Sidious, and it was that all that they stood out for in the grand scheme of things: their lightaber technique, was made irrelevant by the manner in which they were taken out. They simply lacked the reaction speed to protect themselves from Sidious' assault in time. That says nothing about their technique what so ever, but purely their reaction timing, which is why bringing up how Agen and Saesee were some of the best swordsmen ever is nothing more than irrelevant misdirection.

Now forming a comparison between Bane and Sidious in that respect, Agen, Saesee, Raskta, and Farfalla are all on par in that respect, in the sense that there's next to nothing that would put any of them above another in reaction speed, and Bane would have been capable of doing exactly what Sidious did to Agen and Saesee, to Raskta and Farfalla (or rather more; Bane would have literally ran them over, whereas Sidious used his lightsaber, something that would grant him greater range than what Bane possessed, and thus something less demanding of speed), if not for the fact that they were being empowered by BM.

Really guys, you need to actually start analysing evidence rather than just putting it out there, and forming a conclusion without substantiating anything. It's exactly why this argument fails, and exactly why every single Sidious quote has been torn apart with ease.

despite Mace's incredible ability in both....the guy who moves so fast people see multiple arms?

Irrelevant misdirection.

Yes, this requires no skill...nor does the ability he disarmed Darth "wipe out an entire army of the galaxy's greatest killers with negligible injuries and make one of the best duelists who ever lived realize how outclassed he was in seconds" Maul. One handed. With a training saber.

Strawman.

@ Sidi-boy, it's logic, don't even try to "get it," you'll only end up failing miserably.