Master Malygos Vs. Lich King

Alright then. Fair enough. Give me one reason why Lich King would have more than just Lich powers. Kil'Jaeden blessed him with the power of Necromancy, and no matter how much his mind expanded he can not expand beyond what he is limited to.

One blessed with fire magic can not shoot beams of water.
One blessed with holy magic can not shoot beams of darkness.

Since Lich King has never been blessed in any other way than the arts of a Lich/Necromancy, I woul LOVE to hear you explain how he could have other powers.

I dont have to give you a reason, you have to give me one, thats the fallacy your making, the burdon of proof is on you, if your simply breaking things down its not a fact since we dont actually know, also show me where it says Kiljaeden only blesses him with Necromancy, all ive read is that he became a being of unfathomable power with expanded mind, for all we know his expanded mind alone could give him 101 diffrent powers branching from what Kilajeden gave him simply because he has more conciousness of how to use them

You do not have to give me a reason? You make claims that go against logic. Of course you have to prove your claims.

Originally posted by Burning thought
and yes Utrigos, ive read that several times before making my conclusions as well, Phenominal power over magic does not translate exactley to me as "most powerful magic user on Azeroth that would douche any other", Lich King has "unfathomable" power under his belt that sounds more impressive, does that mean he>>Malygos whos power is fathomable as phenomenal.

Source that describes the level of magic the Lich King command as "unfathomable".

Unfathomable can be looked at in a large varity of ways. Kil'Jaedens powers are referred to as unlimited and unimaginable by official sources. That does not mean he is beyond omnipotent.

Just because Lich King has "unfathomable powers" does not mean he can use it to its full extent. He has after all only had it for only a few years. Malgyos have had his complete control over magic since the birth of Azeroth.

Originally posted by Becci
You do not have to give me a reason? You make claims that go against logic. Of course you have to prove your claims.

No i dont, you claim simply because Malygos is the guardian of magic he is some being of complete control over every magic when he has not shown such, you make claims such as just because his flight can do things he has to be millions times greater and other such nonsense, he may be greater but not by necesserily by much.

Also as i said, your the one making the "logic" comment, apprently it says somewhere Kilajeden gave the Lich King necromancy powers, please show me where it says this?

you claim a lot of things as fact when they are not, you need to back up all those things you claimed as fact.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Source that describes the level of magic the Lich King command as "unfathomable".

I said it says LK has unfathomable power, not magic

whether he is using magic or not for his unfathomable power is neither here nor there. But according to Becci this "unfathomable" power is merely and factually limited to Frost and necromacy...i would like to see this proof for this fact 🙂 .

Originally posted by Becci
Unfathomable can be looked at in a large varity of ways. Kil'Jaedens powers are referred to as unlimited and unimaginable by official sources. That does not mean he is beyond omnipotent.

Just because Lich King has "unfathomable powers" does not mean he can use it to its full extent. He has after all only had it for only a few years. Malgyos have had his complete control over magic since the birth of Azeroth.

Although his 10k conciousness means he is concious of things most beings in Azeroth if not all are even capable of seeing or understanding, simply because their conciousness cannot. He could likely do things with his powers Maylgos wouldnt be able to think of.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I said it says LK has unfathomable power, not magic

whether he is using magic or not for his unfathomable power is neither here nor there. But according to Becci this "unfathomable" power is merely and factually limited to Frost and necromacy...i would like to see this proof for this [b]fact 🙂 .[/B]

Then show me where it stats that, also that can be understood in a lot of ways to have unfathomable power... Where having Phenominal Magic cannot.

Can you present proof to the contrary BT that his magical abilities extent that of Necromancy, Black Magic and Frost? Because that is all his servants who has gained there power directly from him has shown so far, I could bring forth his mind abilities but then again they are under the combat section in MoM and since you don't like using that well...

Originally posted by Burning thought
I said it says LK has unfathomable power, not magic

whether he is using magic or not for his unfathomable power is neither here nor there. But according to Becci this "unfathomable" power is merely and factually limited to Frost and necromacy...i would like to see this proof for this [b]fact 🙂[/B]

First of all: Lich King is either magical or physicall, which are basically the only two schools that exist. Since shadow blasts and mind abilities are not physical, they are magical.

Second of all: No Lich in the history of Warcraft has ever used anything else than Necromancy, Shadow and Frost magic.

Third of all:
Manual of Monsters, page 142

Ner'zhul became the Lich King at this time. The sorcerors' new, undead bodies, though immortal, were bound to the iron will of Ner'zhul. Since the liches showed unswerving loyalty to their master, Ner'zhul granted them control over the furious elements of the cold north. Now, the liches wield frost magic along with their own considerable necromantic spells

Originally posted by Utrigita
Can you present proof to the contrary BT that his magical abilities extent that of Necromancy, Black Magic and Frost?

He cant, because that is all Lich King is indicated to manifest.There is no trace of any other type of magic involved with the Lich King. He also can not prove this, since no Lich in the history of Warcraft has used any other abilities than frost, death and shadow magic.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Then show me where it stats that, also that can be understood in a lot of ways to have unfathomable power... Where having Phenominal Magic cannot.

Can you present proof to the contrary BT that his magical abilities extent that of Necromancy, Black Magic and Frost? Because that is all his servants who has gained there power directly from him has shown so far, I could bring forth his mind abilities but then again they are under the combat section in MoM and since you don't like using that well...

The orc that had been Ner'zhul ceased to exist, and the Lich King, a being of unfathomable power, was created.

from: http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich_king#Birth_of_the_Lich_King

also:

http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/story/chapter4.html#25

Warped by the demon's chaotic powers, Ner'zhul became a spectral being of unfathomable power

Ive still yet to see Kiljaeden only gave him Necromancy....hmm maybe Becci was wrong like i thought she was...

I dont have to, as everyone says, its not my place to prove anything, its Beccis place to prove he had only Lich powers or Necromancy because that was her statement. Thats like me saying Kain is omnipotent, then asking you to prove he is not......which ofc is rubbish.

Originally posted by Becci
First of all: Lich King is either magical or physicall, which are basically the only two schools that exist. Since shadow blasts and mind abilities are not physical, they are magical.

Second of all: No Lich in the history of Warcraft has ever used anything else than Necromancy, Shadow and Frost magic.

Third of all:
[b]Manual of Monsters, page 142 [/B]

They gain their power from LK and Kiljaeden, that doesnt mean Kiljaeden can only use Frost and Shadow magic just because he created the Lich King now? according to the logic of your Manuel of monsters nonsense it does.....now please cough up some real proof of Lich King ONLY having Necromancy and frost powers

wow thats important, you gave me a piece from Manual of mosnters stating what powers LK gave to his Liches...great....

Originally posted by Burning thought
from: http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich_king#Birth_of_the_Lich_King

also:

http://www.wow-europe.com/en/info/story/chapter4.html#25

So we can now use WoWWiki as proof? Great.

I found it a little while ago, yet what you seem to forget is that prior he had just had his Consciouness expanded 10.000 times so I wonder what this being with the unfathomable power had most power of... Because it says nothing about the Lich Kings magical Abilities being amplified, there would be no need for that since that wasn't Kil'Jaedens plan with him, the Lich King was simply to pave the way for the Legion with a undead army controlled by a Iron Will.

BT btw what is real proof in your opinion?

btw btw, have you ever seen any of the Lich Kings units using anything besides Black Magic, Necromancy and Frost?

Originally posted by Burning thought
They gain their power from LK and Kiljaeden, that doesnt mean Kiljaeden can only use Frost and Shadow magic just because he created the Lich King now? according to the logic of your Manuel of monsters nonsense it does.....now please cough up some real proof of Lich King ONLY having Necromancy and frost powers

wow thats important, you gave me a piece from Manual of mosnters stating what powers LK gave to his Liches...great....

There is one tiny problem with your awesome argument.

Kil'Jaeden was not blessed with necromancy. He was blessed with unlimited, unimaginable magical powers. Kil'Jaeden has been seen using other abilities than frost and shadow magic, while Lich King has shown not one single indication that would make him even a candidate for other schools of magic than shadow and frost.

I want to know what exactly you base your points on, when you say he has more than shadow and frost magic.

Originally posted by Becci
There is one tiny problem with your awesome argument.

Kil'Jaeden was not blessed with necromancy. He was blessed with unlimited, unimaginable magical powers. Kil'Jaeden has been seen using other abilities than frost and shadow magic, while Lich King has shown not one single indication that would make him even a candidate for other schools of magic than shadow and frost.

I want to know what exactly you base your points on, when you say he has more than shadow and frost magic.

I said you keep saying LK was blessed with Necromancy by Kiljaeden which is not said, it just says unfathomable power. He has not actually used any forms of magic, he has simply used mind powers thus far.

simply because nothing states they can only use Shadow or frost, your assuming, then you call it fact, simple....because its not fact, nothing says they do ONLY have that, especially the LK himself who has not actually used any attacks yet.

Originally posted by Utrigita
So we can now use WoWWiki as proof? Great.

I found it a little while ago, yet what you seem to forget is that prior he had just had his Consciouness expanded 10.000 times so I wonder what this being with the unfathomable power had most power of... Because it says nothing about the Lich Kings magical Abilities being amplified, there would be no need for that since that wasn't Kil'Jaedens plan with him, the Lich King was simply to pave the way for the Legion with a undead army controlled by a Iron Will.

BT btw what is real proof in your opinion?

btw btw, have you ever seen any of the Lich Kings units using anything besides Black Magic, Necromancy and Frost?

We always could....its a good source of info..when it cannot be disproven by a better source, like the games themselves.

Who says Kiljaeden planned on making the LK unfathomably powerful? who cares on Kiljaedens plans, he didnt plan on LK getting out either so his plans are neither here nor there.

Real proof is an actual official source of info, perhaps even a WoWwiki article to state what someone is saying, just like ive just proven to you it does say Unfathomable power, neither of you guys have backed any of your sayings with official proof stating the guy only has Shadow/frost powers.

Well actually dont skeletal mages fire balls of fire? also Obsidian statues and destroyers i think their called have several fairly arcane attacks, such as devouring magic and buffs (Absorb Mana/Devour magic), restorative powers through mana and health amplifiers. These all seem along the lines of Restorative magic, Arcane and balls of fire from the skeletal mage are elemental.

Skeleton mage- http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/skeletalmage.shtml

Destroyer- http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/destroyer.shtml

Statue- http://www.battle.net/war3/undead/units/obsidianstatue.shtml

but this is all irrelevent because simply because a beings minions use various powers does not mean their master does have the same powers and abilities. Your also forgetting Warlock magics encumpass elemental powers and curses which sum up to a long line of powers from cripple and slowing to rotting and damaging and even slowing/weakening spells. Heigan the unclean can also create Earth magic in the form of eruptions. You guys forget that Lich King has hundreds of beings under his control, all of them connected to his expanded 10k conciousness, his minions are not all Frost, Shadow and such.

Funny because I remembering you say something different in another thread but nevermind.

He Planned on making the Lich King powerful, it directly stats that the Lich King was warped by the Demons powers, and that Demon would be Kil'Jaeden he required a single mind in the preparation for the arrival by the Legion so that the last incident wouldn't repeat itself.

You just said WoWwiki was reliable but now you are lowering it's crediability... Actually we have, the Shamans that was with the Lich King was as stated by the quote provided by Becci warped by Kil'Jaeden and his demons into Liches http://www.wowwiki.com/Lich ( <- more detailed here) They however only had necromantic powers, the Lich King them granted them frost too those are the only spells that the Liches who where warped with the Lich King gained, Now would you mind showing me anything that shows that the Lich King has anything beyond Black Magic, Necromancy and Frost magic?

Absorbing and devouring magic is black magic that is what the Statues and the Destroyers command. Balls of fire from a skeleton mage do you even know the story they have in lore? http://www.wowwiki.com/Skeletal_mage guess not....

Warlock magic can be label in two versions (that no living warlock serves the Lich King is another thing) Either Demonic ore as Black Magic. The Cripple is cast by the Necromancer.... Yep hundreds of UNDEAD beings under his control. This is a Statement made by you I would like you to show that not all his minions command either Frost Shadow and such...

hm i dont.

yes warped by the demons powers, but to what ends? it doesnt say whether all the warping of Kiljaedens power gave him necromacny, the increased conciousness or whether some of these were aftereffects, who knows if Kiljaeden even had any idea on the full scope of power he was giving LK, he may have known he was giving him power to control the undead forces and enough power for the job he was giving him but nothing exact was stated.

Is there anything official that states everything in RPG is canon with everything else? hell in the games those mages are summoned by Necromancers as it says, so w/e if the RPG is really canon fair enough.

Ime not saying theres definatley more than just Black,shadow, void and Frost, ime saying you guys cannot say theres definaltey
not either for the Lich King when he has not even come to battle properly yet.

I find it highly unlikely that he gains any of the "unfathamoble power", "one of most powerful Warcraft universe/Azeroth" titles etc just because he has Necromacy or frost powers.

But as i said, there are many many units and characters under the LK command who have elemental, arcane etc etc powers.

*rubs temples* maybe not...

Let me see Kil'Jaeden didn't trust the Lich King then why should he give him any more powers then what was absolutely required for the Lich King to accomplishe the task at hand. I believe Kil'Jaeden had full knowlegde of what he was doing else he wouldn't have done it using his own personal power to accomplishe the task.

Again that is what they are in the game however in WoW you are battling Skeleton Mages that are independent (to a larger ore smaller degree) and they haven't been summoned by a Necromancer. I will happily state again Blizzard is the publisher, I have encountered so far, that have shown the smallest interest in there Lore/Canon.

And Neither can you. However I have no reason to Believe I will see a Fireball ore a lightning spark from the Lich King, Because I have seen nothing but Shadow/Necromancy and Frost spells from Kel'Thuzad the second most powerful undead in existance. http://www.wowwiki.com/Kel%27Thuzad_%28tactics%29

No I think he got it because his mind was warped, to control a army of undead that only goes one way in the count and that is up, that is what can be seen as unfathomable power having a army that cannot be defeated by mortal enemies ruled by a Iron Will, and one can say that if he command those two schools (black magic most certainly) he can most certainly be very very devastating in a battle.

A example would be nice BT.

Originally posted by Utrigita
*rubs temples* maybe not...

Let me see Kil'Jaeden didn't trust the Lich King then why should he give him any more powers then what was absolutely required for the Lich King to accomplishe the task at hand. I believe Kil'Jaeden had full knowlegde of what he was doing else he wouldn't have done it using his own personal power to accomplishe the task.

Again that is what they are in the game however in WoW you are battling Skeleton Mages that are independent (to a larger ore smaller degree) and they haven't been summoned by a Necromancer. I will happily state again Blizzard is the publisher, I have encountered so far, that have shown the smallest interest in there Lore/Canon.

And Neither can you. However I have no reason to Believe I will see a Fireball ore a lightning spark from the Lich King, Because I have seen nothing but Shadow/Necromancy and Frost spells from Kel'Thuzad the second most powerful undead in existance. http://www.wowwiki.com/Kel%27Thuzad_%28tactics%29

No I think he got it because his mind was warped, to control a army of undead that only goes one way in the count and that is up, that is what can be seen as unfathomable power having a army that cannot be defeated by mortal enemies ruled by a Iron Will, and one can say that if he command those two schools (black magic most certainly) he can most certainly be very very devastating in a battle.

A example would be nice BT.

No i dont think so, I think he had a fair idea and of what purpose he wanted this powerful creation to do, but he was not 100% sure, thats why he had to keep LK inside the crystal, thats why he does not want LK released, if he knew LK power and all the LK had was an undead army he wouldnt even be a concern to Kiljaeden and he wouldnt care about having LK too well encased.

Well still, their the publisher but we cannot be 100% sure its canon, since not everything published by the same company is correct together, also those mages were under Lich King control or Kelthuzard soldiers were they not? (ime thinking of the plague lands mages), their all the scourge apart from the Forsaken.

No i cannot, very true, that means my point is correct, neither one of us nor Blessing can state it as fact LK is definaltey not going to be able to use other spell types, i mean I can see him dishing out Arcane powers, beams of white/blue energy, orbs, his power does not definaltey have to be centered around his minons, where some of them DO have elemental powers anyway, i think its going too far to say he definaltey as Fact cannot go beyond those.

As i said before thats not really unfathomable, mainly because you just said it, you shouldnt be able to Fathom it 😛 but that is not really impressive looking at the full scale of things, thats not unfathomable power, Necromancers have a group of undead they can send forth, thats not too greater power that you would get from Unfathomable imo, his mind is prob more unfathomable alone. The mind of LK and his units are incredible, i mean the first guy i post below can flay minds and dont forget curses, they can do almost anything worthwhile.

Check through Naxxramas units here:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Heigan_the_Unclean- this guy makes the ground burst (Earth magic) in eruption

http://www.wowwiki.com/Gothik_the_Harvester-this one summons spectoral trainees who can arcane explosion

http://www.wowwiki.com/Four_Horsemen- Meteors, HOLY magic, even more non shadow/frost powers

several examples in just Naxxramas alone.

Several examples, but none of them which indicate Lich King knows anything more than shadow, frost and death magic. Just because he bring people back form the dead, does not mean that they unlearn all their powers and gain his. Many, unless holy, keep their powers when brought back.

- The four horsemen kept their powers from before corruption. It was not Lich King's blessing that granted them their powers. The HOLY magic, which you capitalized so fancy is dealt by Sir Zeliek. If you had done your studies right, you would know that he is not even corrupted. He is plainly controled physically. His mind and spirit is as free as the birds in the sky. The HOLY magic is that of a very well trained paladin.

- Gothik summon them yes, but that can simply mean that he know arcane magic. This does not mean Lich King does. Gothik probably knew it before he died and was brought back.

- Heigan same as the other ones, could have known this before he died and was brought back as well.

I was proving that Lich King has many minions who know many powers

I could simply thrown your arguments around and say just because many minions only known Ice/shadow or from his power does not mean HE only knows it, this can be double standard.

You were wrong,it is not fact Lich King only knows Frost/shadow, simply assumption.

You are right, it is not solid fact. It is based on logic though, as no Lich has ever used any other than mentioned schools of magic and nor have Lich King shown any indication to be anything else than a powerful Lich. That, and the Manual of Monsters state clearly what powers a Lich manifest.

I would also like to add that even if he is limited to the powers mentioned, his level can still be "unfathomable"