Originally posted by Battlehammer
And? It still not on the level of wolverine feat.spiderman did it vs common thugs.
Logan did it vs special opt memeber trained to take out a meta human who had superhuman reflexes.
spiderman guys saw him and some were able to even firer.
Logan guys were complete speed blizt to the point were he fanished and ended up behind them and they did not see him.
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/2578/feat30speed1gn4.jpg
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4733/feat30speed2uq1.jpg
I'll try to find the scans of him being too fast for the shield agents to react to.
Or not, it wont even matter, Wolverine is not faster than Spiderman anyway.
Originally posted by Mindset
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/2578/feat30speed1gn4.jpg
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/4733/feat30speed2uq1.jpgI'll try to find the scans of him being too fast for the shield agents to react to.
thats still not as impressive. The guy Logan speed blizt could not see him move or even pull the trigger.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
thats still not as impressive. The guy Logan speed blizt could not see him move or even pull the trigger.
Yea, but Spiderman wasn't attacking this guys, who happened to be battle armor. He was able to dodge there attack so fast that they thought they hit him, thus moving too fast for their eyes to follow.
Originally posted by Mindset
Yea, but Spiderman wasn't attacking this guys, who happened to be battle armor. He was able to dodge there attack so fast that they thought they hit him, thus moving too fast for their eyes to follow.
the feat you showed Logan has one just like it and it simply not as impressive as Logan speed blizting the soldiers.
Originally posted by Placidity
You guys have been debating about how SM's feats arent speed but agility, yet you managed to forget that agility is what's important in hand to hand combat.Also, speed is a factor of agility (although they cannot be used interchangeably).
On another note, are we declaring Wolverine a Speedster now? Since he can keep up with Speed Demon and all that?
Something I stated in another thread but it has it's applications here too:
"What I find funny is how you try to use his agility like it's some sort of an advantage in a fight. It isn't. What does his agility do for him besides get him put into positions he can't get out of?
Because there's multitudes of examples where his agility does nothing more with streeters but get him into trouble. Getting caught leaping in midair by Black Panther and having his head rammed through a desk and floorboards, trying to use acrobatics around Redskull and nailed in the solar plexus, getting stabbed trying to jump away from Wolverine.
Lol, his fight with Cap is a primary example of this, "While I'm still in midair before I can turn around", BAM he gets hit in the back. His agility, like his Spider Sense is something that plays against him in h2h combat with high ranking street levels, it's one of the foremost reasons he gets hit in the first place, and it's what basically makes him a sitting duck to guys who read and lead their opponents with timed striking.
Then we've got this ridiculous notion that Spiderman's a good deal faster than Cap. The only reason anyone even says that he's faster at all is because it makes the most sense with him being a clear-cut superhuman and his feats of speed are more numerous. When you look at feat by feat comparisons however. While they may be more numerous, they aren't more impressive. I have no problems saying Spiderman's marginally faster, but he isn't fast enough to a degree that would make any discernable difference in a fight with Cap.
The bare balls of the matter is this: Spiderman's only real advantage that he brings to the fight is his strength. At base level in h2h, Spiderman's really just a very impressive looking reactive fighter. His powers of SS and agility are only used to their best with Spiderman when he has something to react to. Against a man who's experience and natural talent for fighting make him one of if not the best h2h fighter on Marvel Earth, against a man who's strategic brilliance will immediately be setting up strategies to use Spiderman's strengths against him, being a reactive fighter is possibly the worst thing Spiderman could be here. "
Originally posted by Mindset
If he was actually immortal since WW1 why did his hf just recently get to those levels?
I figure it has to do with his mutation, multiple references with Sabretooth basically imply that Wolverine's continuing to develop in his mutation and that eventually he'll turn into another Sabretooth.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
which is still not as impressive as completely vanishing from site from a group of specially trained soldiers and ending up behind them when they were dirrectly staring at him.the feat you showed Logan has one just like it and it simply not as impressive as Logan speed blizting the soldiers.
And Logan has many feats where he speedblitz a group of soldiers before they can react?
And vanishing from the sight of this soldiers Spiderman could have ended up behind them imo, except he opted to vanish from their sight and climb a building.
Just check out the Respect Spiderman threads.
Spiderman has also caught a bullet before (I'd assume you know that well enough not to ask me for a pic, but if you didnt know that then its also in one of the respect threads).
People using the SD example imply that he is as fast as him, and therefore is a Speedster, which I think you will find your own implication abit incorrect to say the least.
(apparently I'm too newb to post links on this forum, so I apologize for lack of links)
Originally posted by Battlehammer
he can't remain dead and was able to keep coming back from the dead.
Cool, I always thought he could be killed by decapitation (obviously not with Adamantium on).
I'm not challenging you on this, but do you have scans showing that he is immortal, I'm just interested. Promise 🙂
Originally posted by jinzin
Something I stated in another thread but it has it's applications here too:"[B]What I find funny is how you try to use his agility like it's some sort of an advantage in a fight. It isn't.
What does his agility do for him besides get him put into positions he can't get out of?
Because there's multitudes of examples where his agility does nothing more with streeters but get him into trouble. Getting caught leaping in midair by Black Panther and having his head rammed through a desk and floorboards, trying to use acrobatics around Redskull and nailed in the solar plexus, getting stabbed trying to jump away from Wolverine.
Lol, his fight with Cap is a primary example of this, "While I'm still in midair before I can turn around", BAM he gets hit in the back. His agility, like his Spider Sense is something that plays against him in h2h combat with high ranking street levels, it's one of the foremost reasons he gets hit in the first place, and it's what basically makes him a sitting duck to guys who read and lead their opponents with timed striking.
[/B]
I really have to disagree with you there. Having enhanced agility can never be a disadvantage (save PIS/CIS).
I really don't see your logic in this. I guess someone like the Flash or Superman who are far superior in this regard should be disadvantaged?
It just doesn't make sense to me on any level. Being fast, stronger, more durable etc, they are all valuble, increasing amounts of any of these abilities can only be a good thing.
What your example shows is that Spiderman has not mastered his use of agility and fighting prowness, thats another thing. Such as jumping away at the wrong time, leaving himself vulnerable. Its not because he is very agile that got him hurt, its because he was not good at predicting his opponent's attacks aswell as they could anticipate his.
Also, you talk about agility as if its all about jumping and doing flips which is not at all correct. Agility is factored by speed, reaction time, balance and alot more. Continuously dodging punches would be considered as an agility feat.
Originally posted by PlacidityIn what regard agility?
I really have to disagree with you there. Having enhanced agility can never be a disadvantage (save PIS/CIS).
I really don't see your logic in this. I guess someone like the Flash or Superman who are far superior in this regard should be disadvantaged?
I don't think Supes, nor Flash are far superior in agility to Spiderman.
Are you talking speed? Because that's another argument.
Spiderman's agility does leave him as a sitting duck and it gets him suckered in h2h fights with people. Agilities, good for acrobatics, acrobatics are not nesecarily good for fighting.
And Spiderman's agility isn't far and above the likes of people like Wolverine who also has enhanced agility, Spiderman's strength just makes it appear that way.
Originally posted by PlacidityDepends really. Intelligence is great but that doesn't mean that the Leader's about to take Wolverine in a fist fight, mental powers are nice, but they won't help professor X win a foot race.
It just doesn't make sense to me on any level. Being fast, stronger, more durable etc, they are all valuble, increasing amounts of any of these abilities can only be a good thing.
Strength, speed and durability are going to be valuable in increasing factors no matter what simply based on the fact that increased those factors don't necessarily rely on how one uses them to remain effective. Agility in Spiderman's case here does. It doesn't stand as a real advantage if at all.
Originally posted by PlacidityI wasn't trying to blame his agility for him being hit, but the way he uses it. Though I see where you got that from in that post.
What your example shows is that Spiderman has not mastered his use of agility and fighting prowness, thats another thing. Such as jumping away at the wrong time, leaving himself vulnerable. Its not because he is very agile that got him hurt, its because he was not good at predicting his opponent's attacks aswell as they could anticipate his.
Originally posted by PlacidityI'm under the impression that people are reffering to his acrobatic skill when mentioning his agility as an advantage otherwise bringing up his SS, reflexes, and speed would all be redundant.
Also, you talk about agility as if its all about jumping and doing flips which is not at all correct. Agility is factored by speed, reaction time, balance and alot more. Continuously dodging punches would be considered as an agility feat.
Originally posted by jinzin
I don't think Supes, nor Flash are far superior in agility to Spiderman.
Are you talking speed? Because that's another argument.Spiderman's agility does leave him as a sitting duck and it gets him suckered in h2h fights with people. Agilities, good for acrobatics, acrobatics are not nesecarily good for fighting.
Again, agility is not just about acrobatics although it definately is required for that. I think we don't have the same definition of agility.
Originally posted by jinzin
And Spiderman's agility isn't far and above the likes of people like Wolverine who also has enhanced agility, Spiderman's strength just makes it appear that way.
Originally posted by jinzin
Depends really. Intelligence is great but that doesn't mean that the Leader's about to take Wolverine in a fist fight, mental powers are nice, but they won't help professor X win a foot race.Strength, speed and durability are going to be valuable in increasing factors no matter what simply based on the fact that increased those factors don't necessarily rely on how one uses them to remain effective. Agility in Spiderman's case here does. It doesn't stand as a real advantage if at all.
Well, it could prove to be advatangeous for him, or possibly fatal depending on how well he can anticipate his opponent. You had examples that showed him making bad calls during a fight, that doesn't mean he does it ALL the time. In fact, for the most part, I would say he uses it quite well to evade attacks. Several of your examples also show that he gets put down in mid-air due to a RANGED attack, which wolverine doesnt have.
Originally posted by jinzin
I wasn't trying to blame his agility for him being hit, but the way he uses it. Though I see where you got that from in that post.
Agree, Exactly what I've been saying. What I disagree on (same thing above), is your assumption that his agility will be his downfall. Everyone makes mistakes in battle, this is just an example of one of them. Will he make a bad decision during a fight vs Wolverine, maybe, maybe not (Although out of every fight, the chances of his agility being used against him are alot less)
Originally posted by PlacidityWhen you've got characters that can do similar acrobatics, have comparable feats of speed, and the same types of dexterity it would seem any argument in favor of agility being a massive advantage in Spiderman's favor is actually just one in favor of his strength.
Again, agility is not just about acrobatics although it definately is required for that. I think we don't have the same definition of agility.I don't think strength can give the impression of agility... (I'll think abt that one).
Originally posted by PlacidityI agree. For the "most part" Spiderman does use his Spider Sense and agility very very very well.. But the "most part" really doesn't take into consideration a control group like high tier street levels. When that specific consistency is called into question Spiderman's use of his agility is less than impressive. And since, that control group is the only one relievent to this thread of course it's the one I'd draw examples from.
Well, it could prove to be advatangeous for him, or possibly fatal depending on how well he can anticipate his opponent. You had examples that showed him making bad calls during a fight, that doesn't mean he does it ALL the time. In fact, for the most part, I would say he uses it quite well to evade attacks. Several of your examples also show that he gets put down in mid-air due to a RANGED attack, which wolverine doesnt have.
I don't know why you're refferencing ranged attacks since the only one who had anything close to the sort out of that group was Cap, and he only used it as a distraction.
Black Panther and Red Skull had no such range.
Originally posted by PlacidityI'm not assuming that agility will be his downfall. What I did was make the argument that agility is not necessarily an advantage against people at Logan's level in h2h. That's not an assumption, it's an inference that I've gathered from multitudes of fights against people at or near Logans skill level where that exact thing holds true.
Agree, Exactly what I've been saying. What I disagree on (same thing above), is your assumption that his agility will be his downfall. Everyone makes mistakes in battle, this is just an example of one of them. Will he make a bad decision during a fight vs Wolverine, maybe, maybe not (Although out of every fight, the chances of his agility being used against him are alot less)
