Silver Surfer vs. The Flash (Wally)

cool 🙂,
Surfer's level of sub-atomic control is demonstrated in his fight with UniLord (a Skyfather level God) where he is literally sliced and diced and smashed to bits but reforms instantly. he does require outside (rather than internal stores of) Power Cosmic when he's up against high Skyfather+ characters to even stay alive - as demonstrated with the T&A fight, but at herald/sub-herald/top-tier, it's not an issue.

like say Magneto's got total control over magnetism but, up against Surfer, Surfer would own him with magnetism.

the Stranger and other above-herald level characters would own Surfer pretty much as a matter of course. Runner not only out ran Surfer, he over powered him too... it's the way things are, hierarchies. with Flash though, this never can come into consideration.
Furthermore Flash has no access to, no connection with The Power Cosmic, which Stranger et al have (Watchers, Thanos, Galactus being the ultimate wielder of Power Cosmic), which is why they can cut off the Power Cosmic from reaching Surfer. (note, recently Sakaar's wormhole also did that). it's not that Surfer is somehow unable to access it, it's that the Power Cosmic no longer reaches Surfer. the object affected isn't Surfer but the PC itself. 'cos once Surfer left Sakaar's atmosphere he had access to the Power Cosmic again.

I've only seen Galactus shut down Surfer's Power Cosmic, and that is a feat beyond anyone else.

I hope that takes care of both why Surfer can be altered by beings essentially more powerful than himself, whilst still retaining the ability to recreate/regenerate himself eventually.

as to Flash stealing speed, it is not analogous to say that Flash could steal PC, they are vastly different things. Speed is kinetic energy, as far as DC goes. Power Cosmic is that and a whole lot more, consciousness, time, dna... everything in the universe essentially.
thus Surfer can always (and does always, both consciously and unconsciously) generate kinetic energy both internally, via the huge stores of PC in his 'shell' and externally from the cosmos around him.
Flash can't prevent Surfer from accessing this (as Flash can't tamper with Surfer's powers), thus it becomes futile for Flash to even attempt it.

of course ALL this is predicated on Surfer allowing Flash to attempt to speed steal. which he might, out of vindictive cruelty 😄.

as for LENDING speed, what possible "speed" could Flash lend to a creature faster than him, both in mental processing and motion?

surfer doesn't just 'lend', he creates other Surfers, on a whim, equally powerful (because the PC is out in the universe, all he has to do is make a being with his access to the PC) and without losing anything in the process.

Surfer, via matter manipulation, has also given life to creatures... Surfer can also kill someone with but a thought (giving billions of people around the world "happy moments" in an instant shows power on a vast scale).

in KMC, in comics, in any sort of rational debate, I see nothing at all but a pico second slaughter of Flash by Surfer.

I appreciate that it's fun to play devil's advocate, but some here actually believe that these arguments are legitimate! 😖

ok, just as a mental exercise, check these:
surfer wins via speedblitz and IMPs
surfer wins via speed stealing (PC drainage)
surfer wins via molecular vibration (exciting Flash's molecules to instability)

are any of these outside of the scope of surfer's powerset?
or outside of the scale here?
not at all.

so at the very least you have to accept that Flash wouldn't easily be able to accomplish the very same attacks on Surfer, if Surfer has the same abilities?

well then, what is left? durability and versatility (where Surfer owns Flash), Scope and Scale of powers (ditto), skill and accomplishment with powers (ditto - Surfer's been using the PC for thousands of years, in all kinds of environments, and in many exotic ways).

Originally posted by ultimatethor
Therefore for flash to be able to steal his speed he would have to show that he has greater control of SS KE than SS does . . . ALL in all the flash being able to win would entail us putting the speed force over the power cosmic but because they exist intwo different universes we cannot directly relate them and without that SS wins

2 problems here: (1) for the speed force to be able to affect ss does NOT entail us placing the SF ABOVE the pc, just OUTSIDE of it, something that is entirely plausible as it does not exist in marvel. if -- as it should -- the battle takes place in a world where BOTH have access to their powers, it IS possible ss might be able to sense or perhaps even tap into the SF due to his manipulating skills. however, i'd say the latter is very unlikely as the SF has been said to CHOOSE those who have access to it. without the SF's 'permission' it is unlikely ss could access it even IF he knew it existed. and since it chooses who wields it, it makes perfect sense that it would exist outside the PC's reign of influence. 🙂

janus:

the uni-lord saga was . . . odd. not sure that's a great example of what you're trying to get at in terms of molecular control. i'd have to reread it but that whole thing was just . . . weird and hard to really figure, imo. i know ss very well, and i can't think of a single time where he demonstrated control of his physical structure down to the atomic level. he shrunk himself into the microverse, which is something i guess, but even that isn't demonstrating the kind of control you're talking about.
but it doesn't matter -- the speed force would be OUTSIDE his control. like when he was stabbed by that magical dagger and ko'd. it was OUTSIDE his control.

you seem to believe that the speed force is analagous to controlling kinetic energy. that's untrue. the speed force is an extra-dimensional energy source that CONTROLS all speed/motion/momentum. kinetic energy is a function of the speed force, not vice versa. least that's how i've always viewed it. ss could TRY and absorb more and more kinetic energy, but flash is cutting him off at the source -- SPEED FORCE>KINETIC ENERGY as it is the source. the speed force has been portrayed as a MYSTICAL source of energy. PC has been shown to exist seperately and outside mystical forces in the past.

as far as lending speed: you think ss is faster than flash and would win a quick draw? i would disagree with that. by accessing the SF there is theortically no limit to his speed (that's been hinted as true by KC flash. even the glimmer as hinted in canonicity that this may be literally true -- even wally has drawn clones from time showing that he can literally pull himself from other places in time -- i've wondered at the connection between the SF and hypertime.) so, if that's the case, it would be flash dictating things from the outset. problem is he can only harm ss by stealing or lending speed. i think it believeable he could speed ss's thoughts to the point where, if he couldn't ko him, he could cause him to be unable to function. it would at least be enough to grant flash the opening to steal his speed. in his confused state, ss couldn't do anything to stop it.

again, forum-izing both, flash>ss in speed.

beyond that, at the speeds we're discussing, (which would be well beyond light) when has ss EVER demonstrated such a fine level of control over his powers? transmuting seems to take some concentration from him. generally he blasts when travelling at speed. and again, if wally entered the speed force, or lured ss there, he could possibly trap ss that way, or have the spirits of the speed force attack him as has happened in the past.

meh, it's all very difficult to prove, but it seems at least plausible that flash could defeat ss in a forum setting. at the least, it isn't spite i don't believe, as was mentioned at some point. 🙂

leonidas,

what I'm saying is that SpeedForce is analogous to just one aspect of the PC, the PC is the totality of universal energies/forces/waves... everything that sustains and springs forth from the universe. thus Surfer cannot be denied a constant and infinitely replenishing source of speed, energy, strength, blast power etc etc etc.

Speed Force would have to be the dominant force in the 'neutral' universe for Flash to attempt to steal speed, in the first place. As it is a neutral battlefield, this cannot be so and both must retain their powers, thus the why Surfer cannot merely shut off Flash's access to the speedforce from the off.

The Speed Force would co-exist with The Power Cosmic, neither would dominate over the other, but the Speed Force is too narrowly limited for it to cause a Power Cosmic wielder any trouble. since the PC is what animates, regulates and empowers the Heralds.

Flash would have to be attempting to steal speed from existing molecules (kinetic energy) in Surfer, which is a futile thing to do, as demonstrated by the many attempts at draining Surfer that other Herald levelers have made.

Surfer on the other hand, has drained a variety of energies from herald and skyfather (UniLord) beings, so it is, if anything, a sound strategy for Surfer to pursue.

as for OD'ing Surfer with speed (attempting to befuddle him) it will still require that the Speed Force overpowers The Power Cosmic and The Cosmic Awareness, which isn't happening. you either accept both forces as co-dominant or you fight in the DCU.

furthermore, Surfer has not hit a limit in terms of processing speed... he maps the universe as he travels at many millions of times the speed of light.

at 1000's x C, he dodges asteroids that are hurtling towards him at thousands of miles per hour, that alone is proof of his processing and reaction speeds, if you do the math.

honestly, I'm not being biased when I state that Flash has no chance, I need a reason to suppose Flash would get the jump on Surfer, when speed wise there isn't anything to show him being faster.

Surfer's pacifist and ponderous habit of monologuing people to death, is unfortunately an outgrowth of his "space jesus" aspect, it makes Surfer less of a fighter than a philosopher... yet his powerset and his feats demonstrate, either explicitly or by logical deduction, everything necessary to make him a monster.

as far as I'm aware, Marvel's universes are ontologically different, thus if Surfer goes into a different time (as he has done) he is effectively in a different universe (Future Imperfect's Maestro Hulk for example) with different dynamics at play... so I don't see the pulling flashes from alternative times as a feature of a neutral battleground (unless Surfer can pull Exiles Surfer or The Keeper?).

also, that would still require that Flash survive the initial moment of attack... which he clearly couldn't survive.

Flash's approach would be pre-empted by 3 layer's of Surfer's PC powers:
1) reaction speeds - as demonstrated, he reacts to asteroid belts whilst travelling at multiples of C.
2) Cosmic Awareness - he can sense impending attacks/doom/fluctuations in the galaxy (like Galactus does on a universal scale) and
3) his tracking and sighting powers - he will see Flash before Flash sees him.

silver surfer wins

Soarin' Norrin.

Overall superior + multi-faceted firepower > Extreme single-faceted firepower.

Surfer fans: show me SS operating on two teams simultaniously on opposite sides of the globe. No clones, no warping, just pure speed and being in two places at the same time. 🙂

umm.. flash fans, show trickster a flash using an imp destroying something equal to what terrax did with one swing of his ax, and he is a low end herald. surfer is something like 3 to 4 times his might.

Originally posted by leonidas
2 problems here: (1) for the speed force to be able to affect ss does NOT entail us placing the SF ABOVE the pc, just OUTSIDE of it, something that is entirely plausible as it does not exist in marvel. if -- as it should -- the battle takes place in a world where BOTH have access to their powers, it IS possible ss might be able to sense or perhaps even tap into the SF due to his manipulating skills. however, i'd say the latter is very unlikely as the SF has been said to CHOOSE those who have access to it. without the SF's 'permission' it is unlikely ss could access it even IF he knew it existed. and since it chooses who wields it, it makes perfect sense that it would exist outside the PC's reign of influence. 🙂

janus:

the uni-lord saga was . . . odd. not sure that's a great example of what you're trying to get at in terms of molecular control. i'd have to reread it but that whole thing was just . . . weird and hard to really figure, imo. i know ss very well, and i can't think of a single time where he demonstrated control of his physical structure down to the atomic level. he shrunk himself into the microverse, which is something i guess, but even that isn't demonstrating the kind of control you're talking about.
but it doesn't matter -- the speed force would be OUTSIDE his control. like when he was stabbed by that magical dagger and ko'd. it was OUTSIDE his control.

you seem to believe that the speed force is analagous to controlling kinetic energy. that's untrue. the speed force is an extra-dimensional energy source that CONTROLS all speed/motion/momentum. kinetic energy is a function of the speed force, not vice versa. least that's how i've always viewed it. ss could TRY and absorb more and more kinetic energy, but flash is cutting him off at the source -- SPEED FORCE>KINETIC ENERGY as it is the source. the speed force has been portrayed as a MYSTICAL source of energy. PC has been shown to exist seperately and outside mystical forces in the past.

as far as lending speed: you think ss is faster than flash and would win a quick draw? i would disagree with that. by accessing the SF there is theortically no limit to his speed (that's been hinted as true by KC flash. even the glimmer as hinted in canonicity that this may be literally true -- even wally has drawn clones from time showing that he can literally pull himself from other places in time -- i've wondered at the connection between the SF and hypertime.) so, if that's the case, it would be flash dictating things from the outset. problem is he can only harm ss by stealing or lending speed. i think it believeable he could speed ss's thoughts to the point where, if he couldn't ko him, he could cause him to be unable to function. it would at least be enough to grant flash the opening to steal his speed. in his confused state, ss couldn't do anything to stop it.

again, forum-izing both, flash>ss in speed.

beyond that, at the speeds we're discussing, (which would be well beyond light) when has ss EVER demonstrated such a fine level of control over his powers? transmuting seems to take some concentration from him. generally he blasts when travelling at speed. and again, if wally entered the speed force, or lured ss there, he could possibly trap ss that way, or have the spirits of the speed force attack him as has happened in the past.

meh, it's all very difficult to prove, but it seems at least plausible that flash could defeat ss in a forum setting. at the least, it isn't spite i don't believe, as was mentioned at some point. 🙂

Sorry but i have to disagree. As you have said the speed force is the an extra dimensional enrgy source that cotrols all speed/momentum/movement etc in the DCU. while the powr cosmic is the combination of enrgy and forces that come out of the Marvel universe. Hence silver surfers speed strength blasts etc are all provided by the PC. Therefore if both SS and flash fight in a neutral universe, the speed force WONT have control of SS speed because it is determined by the PC. Therefore if the two of them are to exist independently, the speed force WONT have total conrol over all speed and momentum because the Power cosmic will be controlling the sufers speed. For the flash to attempt to steal the surfers speed he would have to attempt to use the speed force to affect something NOT controlled by the speedforce.

Next to the point bout flash cutting off surfer from the source. This is impossible because once again the speedforceis NOT the source of surfers speed but rather the PC is. As i said before for the speed force to do this it would have to be dominant or superior to the power cosmic in this department and this is however unprovable.

For the flash to confuse the surfer by lending him too much speed would entail the flash giving the surfer a level of enrgy which sufers PC cant handle. This however once again brings into a head to head battle between the surfers PC and the flashes speedforce. The question of dominance occurs again. Without these very implausible examples of speed manipulation the flash really has no chance of defeating SS. SS has shown he can react to oncoming meteors moving at FTL speeds and so coupled with his superb senses and cosmic awarenesse certainly will be able to hit him. And it wont take more than a few cosmic blasts to down the flash

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Surfer fans: show me SS operating on two teams simultaniously on opposite sides of the globe. No clones, no warping, just pure speed and being in two places at the same time. 🙂

what next?
"Surfer fans: show me an example of Surfer being so fast that he looks like he's red and has a yellow lightning mark on his chest, then I might believe you"?

Flash is a one-trick pony, of course he's going to have impressive amounts of speed feat tricks, like appearing on two earth based teams at once.

whereas Surfer is a loner by nature, he left his planet, he left Galactus, he left The Defenders ... he's not a settled "home town hero" type like Flash.

Furthermore, Surfer is mostly about cosmic battles and the occasional face to face throw-down, he is far too versatile and powerful for the comics to concentrate on presenting his "speed feats" alone. instead you get his speed feats as a function of some other feat - like tracking down quarry for Galactus or going back in time.

can you show me an scan of Flash travelling across half the universe in a second (under his own power)?
can you show a scan of Flash re-energising a planet with his own powers?

the "speed stealing" fell flat, everything else you can think up will similarly fall flat.

Originally posted by janus77
you failed at the first hurdle, now without any sense of embarrassment you return with yet more claptrap?

what next?
"Surfer fans: show me an example of Surfer being so fast that he looks like he's red and has a yellow lightning mark on his chest, then I might believe you"?

Flash is a one-trick pony, of course he's going to have impressive amounts of speed feat tricks, like appearing on two earth based teams at once.

whereas Surfer is a loner by nature, he left his planet, he left Galactus, he left The Defenders ... he's not a settled "home town hero" type like Flash.

Furthermore, Surfer is mostly about cosmic battles and the occasional face to face throw-down, he is far too versatile and powerful for the comics to concentrate on presenting his "speed feats" alone. instead you get his speed feats as a function of some other feat - like tracking down quarry for Galactus or going back in time.

can you show me an scan of Flash travelling across half the universe in a second (under his own power)?
can you show a scan of Flash re-energising a planet with his own powers?

the "speed stealing" fell flat, everything else you can think up will similarly fall flat.

Good post

if speed was the deciding factor in this fight, hemes would be running shit on mount olympus instead of zues.

----------------------------
"good post"

janus for the win.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
if speed was the deciding factor in this fight, hemes would be running shit on mount olympus instead of zues.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
if speed was the deciding factor in this fight, hemes would be running shit on mount olympus instead of zues.

----------------------------
"good post"

janus for the win.

Ares hit Hermes in the food with a nail gun, he couldn't even run shit at a high school 😐

God you've got a lot of ridiculous posts.

Originally posted by janus77
leonidas,

what I'm saying is that SpeedForce is analogous to just one aspect of the PC, the PC is the totality of universal energies/forces/waves... everything that sustains and springs forth from the universe. thus Surfer cannot be denied a constant and infinitely replenishing source of speed, energy, strength, blast power etc etc etc.

Speed Force would have to be the dominant force in the 'neutral' universe for Flash to attempt to steal speed, in the first place. As it is a neutral battlefield, this cannot be so and both must retain their powers, thus the why Surfer cannot merely shut off Flash's access to the speedforce from the off.

The Speed Force would co-exist with The Power Cosmic, neither would dominate over the other, but the Speed Force is too narrowly limited for it to cause a Power Cosmic wielder any trouble. since the PC is what animates, regulates and empowers the Heralds.

Flash would have to be attempting to steal speed from existing molecules (kinetic energy) in Surfer, which is a futile thing to do, as demonstrated by the many attempts at draining Surfer that other Herald levelers have made.

Surfer on the other hand, has drained a variety of energies from herald and skyfather (UniLord) beings, so it is, if anything, a sound strategy for Surfer to pursue.

as for OD'ing Surfer with speed (attempting to befuddle him) it will still require that the Speed Force overpowers The Power Cosmic and The Cosmic Awareness, which isn't happening. you either accept both forces as co-dominant or you fight in the DCU.

furthermore, Surfer has not hit a limit in terms of processing speed... he maps the universe as he travels at many millions of times the speed of light.

at 1000's x C, he dodges asteroids that are hurtling towards him at thousands of miles per hour, that alone is proof of his processing and reaction speeds, if you do the math.

honestly, I'm not being biased when I state that Flash has no chance, I need a reason to suppose Flash would get the jump on Surfer, when speed wise there isn't anything to show him being faster.

Surfer's pacifist and ponderous habit of monologuing people to death, is unfortunately an outgrowth of his "space jesus" aspect, it makes Surfer less of a fighter than a philosopher... yet his powerset and his feats demonstrate, either explicitly or by logical deduction, everything necessary to make him a monster.

as far as I'm aware, Marvel's universes are ontologically different, thus if Surfer goes into a different time (as he has done) he is effectively in a different universe (Future Imperfect's Maestro Hulk for example) with different dynamics at play... so I don't see the pulling flashes from alternative times as a feature of a neutral battleground (unless Surfer can pull Exiles Surfer or The Keeper?).

also, that would still require that Flash survive the initial moment of attack... which he clearly couldn't survive.

Flash's approach would be pre-empted by 3 layer's of Surfer's PC powers:
1) reaction speeds - as demonstrated, he reacts to asteroid belts whilst travelling at multiples of C.
2) Cosmic Awareness - he can sense impending attacks/doom/fluctuations in the galaxy (like Galactus does on a universal scale) and
3) his tracking and sighting powers - he will see Flash before Flash sees him.

it really becomes an unanswerable point -- PC vs SF. just addressing your 3 points:

reaction speeds are at least equal, as observed in books, but again, flash has essentially UNLIMITED speed. ss is fast. his speed can NOT be unlimited. dodging asteroids is not tamtamount to using transmuting skills either. 😬 again, at the speeds we're discussing, ss really hasn't demonstrated ANY fine control of his powers.

cosmic awareness: CA doens't equal pre-cognition. he'd have to find THEN attack. by the time he found him, flash would be gone. ss can keep up the chase though, so ultimately flash would lose based solely on stamina. but he doesn't need CA for that to happen.

tracking/sighting first? again, i'd disagree. in terms of sheer speed, flash>ss imo. and flash has the ability thanls to the SF to track and find any speedster. 🙂 it's at least a dead-heat again, but flash's top end is unlimited, ss's DOES have a limit. i'd say if he COULD have gine faster trying to snatch the IG he would have.

you're saying SF analagous to one aspect of PC -- i'm saying it is seperate entirely. the issue becomes ontological as you pointed out. dc is set up differently. in a neutral universe where both access powers though, SF would be OUTSIDE the PC. speed comes from a different source in dc. and exactly as uthor was saying in his post -- ss could suffer for EXACTLY that reason. very FEW in dc tap the SF for their speed. supes, ww, gl -- EACH can and HAVE achieved FTL speeds, and yet flash>>all of them and is capable of stealing speed from ALL of them. why? BECAUSE they can't access SF or because they don't have flash's control over it. you are saying the SF is a ltd thing, that the PC is a catch-all. but in much the same way that ss is a herald for the PC, flash is a 'herald' of the SF. as regards heralds and other-dimensional energies -- ravenous caused ss a lot of trouble before his upgrade, and even after, it wasn't as if ss was just able to control and command the energies available to ravenous . . .

the bit where you're saying pulling flash's is NOT something that could result in a neutral universe is tantamount to saying flash can't use his powers to the fullest. 'regular' wally can and HAS pulled various versions of himself from throughout time. exiles ss and the keeper are NOT 'regular' versions of the ss. they are from separate universes and ss has no way of bringing them to bear. wally CAN bring others of 'himself' (as he has done in canon) to bear against ss if he needed to as that is a direct function of his control over the speed force.

and the notion that ss could 'shut-off' flash's access to SF would be analagous to stating that ss could simply 'shut-off' strange's access to HIS extra-dimensional energies . . . 😬 and again -- SF would NOT have to be 'superior' -- merely OUTSIDE, again, like magical energy is 'outside' the PC. SF is a 'mystical' source of energy. i really don't see why it would be subject to the PC.

so . . .

flash has access to LIMITLESS speeds. ss is fast, but not limitless in his speed.

SF is 'mystical'. magic is outside the PC. why wouldn't the SF be outside? in fact, as it comes from a different universe, not subject to marvel's laws, it seems only logical that it WOULD be outside ss's ability to affect (ie -- he couldn't deny access or implicitly control it and as a result would be suject to it like others not connected to it are subject to it)

ss HAS been overloaded in the past and driven almost insane -- and that was only by absorbing a small portion of the sun's energy. it is possible flash could overload him with speed. perhaps. and again -- it's not OVERPOWERING the pc or cosmic awareness. it's attacking him with a power (like magic) that is outside his sphere of influence. you're saying that ultimately PC>SF because of their spheres of influence.

i'm saying that is unproveable and as a result, flash COULD win this. SF is said to be derived from the godwave, much like the PC is derived ultimatelty from eternity.

PC>>>ss
SF>>>flash

ss was CHOSEN to wield PC
flash CHOSEN to wield SF

yes ss's SCOPE of power is greater, but flash's DEPTH of power in this one area>ss's and in a forum battle, it may be enough to plausibly allow him to win, imo. good discussion though. 🙂

oh, and there may not be a scan of flash reenergizing a world, but isn't there a scan somewhere of flash stealing the speed of an entire planet . . .?

Wally cannot outrace the speed of thought. Once SS thinks of transmuting him dead Wally is as good as dead.

Originally posted by Bentley
Wally cannot outrace the speed of thought. Once SS thinks of transmuting him dead Wally is as good as dead.

Can and has.

Yes, and there's a scan of him searching the universe in a few panels. I'm not sure if the 2nd is Pre-Crisis......oh wait, PC is canon again. 😄

Hey, its not my fault he said he cannot do it and then proceeded to get owned because of it in a recent Flash.

Originally posted by llagrok
Ares hit Hermes in the food with a nail gun, he couldn't even run shit at a high school 😐

God you've got a lot of ridiculous posts.

that post i wrote is spot on, dc fanboys make the flash sound like he wins against everyone, little do they know that context plays a big part in comics.

Originally posted by Bentley
Wally cannot outrace the speed of thought. Once SS thinks of transmuting him dead Wally is as good as dead.

what grok said.

and here is a greater on-panel speed mind feat than anything ss has ever done:

http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flash138p173ex.jpg

SEPTOSECOND. cripes . . . shock