Originally posted by leonidas
it really becomes an unanswerable point -- PC vs SF. just addressing your 3 points:reaction speeds are at least equal, as observed in books, but again, flash has essentially UNLIMITED speed. ss is fast. his speed can NOT be unlimited. dodging asteroids is not tamtamount to using transmuting skills either. 😬 again, at the speeds we're discussing, ss really hasn't demonstrated ANY fine control of his powers.
cosmic awareness: CA doens't equal pre-cognition. he'd have to find THEN attack. by the time he found him, flash would be gone. ss can keep up the chase though, so ultimately flash would lose based solely on stamina. but he doesn't need CA for that to happen.
tracking/sighting first? again, i'd disagree. in terms of sheer speed, flash>ss imo. and flash has the ability thanls to the SF to track and find any speedster. 🙂 it's at least a dead-heat again, but flash's top end is unlimited, ss's DOES have a limit. i'd say if he COULD have gine faster trying to snatch the IG he would have.
you're saying SF analagous to one aspect of PC -- i'm saying it is seperate entirely. the issue becomes ontological as you pointed out. dc is set up differently. in a neutral universe where both access powers though, SF would be OUTSIDE the PC. speed comes from a different source in dc. and exactly as uthor was saying in his post -- ss could suffer for EXACTLY that reason. very FEW in dc tap the SF for their speed. supes, ww, gl -- EACH can and HAVE achieved FTL speeds, and yet flash>>all of them and is capable of stealing speed from ALL of them. why? BECAUSE they can't access SF or because they don't have flash's control over it. you are saying the SF is a ltd thing, that the PC is a catch-all. but in much the same way that ss is a herald for the PC, flash is a 'herald' of the SF. as regards heralds and other-dimensional energies -- ravenous caused ss a lot of trouble before his upgrade, and even after, it wasn't as if ss was just able to control and command the energies available to ravenous . . .
the bit where you're saying pulling flash's is NOT something that could result in a neutral universe is tantamount to saying flash can't use his powers to the fullest. 'regular' wally can and HAS pulled various versions of himself from throughout time. exiles ss and the keeper are NOT 'regular' versions of the ss. they are from separate universes and ss has no way of bringing them to bear. wally CAN bring others of 'himself' (as he has done in canon) to bear against ss if he needed to as that is a direct function of his control over the speed force.
and the notion that ss could 'shut-off' flash's access to SF would be analagous to stating that ss could simply 'shut-off' strange's access to HIS extra-dimensional energies . . . 😬 and again -- SF would NOT have to be 'superior' -- merely OUTSIDE, again, like magical energy is 'outside' the PC. SF is a 'mystical' source of energy. i really don't see why it would be subject to the PC.
so . . .
flash has access to LIMITLESS speeds. ss is fast, but not limitless in his speed.
SF is 'mystical'. magic is outside the PC. why wouldn't the SF be outside? in fact, as it comes from a different universe, not subject to marvel's laws, it seems only logical that it WOULD be outside ss's ability to affect (ie -- he couldn't deny access or implicitly control it and as a result would be suject to it like others not connected to it are subject to it)
ss HAS been overloaded in the past and driven almost insane -- and that was only by absorbing a small portion of the sun's energy. it is possible flash could overload him with speed. perhaps. and again -- it's not OVERPOWERING the pc or cosmic awareness. it's attacking him with a power (like magic) that is outside his sphere of influence. you're saying that ultimately PC>SF because of their spheres of influence.
i'm saying that is unproveable and as a result, flash COULD win this. SF is said to be derived from the godwave, much like the PC is derived ultimatelty from eternity.
PC>>>ss
SF>>>flashss was CHOSEN to wield PC
flash CHOSEN to wield SFyes ss's SCOPE of power is greater, but flash's DEPTH of power in this one area>ss's and in a forum battle, it may be enough to plausibly allow him to win, imo. good discussion though. 🙂
oh, and there may not be a scan of flash reenergizing a world, but isn't there a scan somewhere of flash stealing the speed of an entire planet . . .?
hey,
just wanted to address a few misunderstandings regarding what I wrote.
the PC and SF would be independent ("co-dominant"😉 powers in any neutral universe, imo. neither would impinge upon the power of the other.
Flash would not be capable of stealing speed because (among other reasons), the Kinetic Energy of The Surfer would be produced by (as it always is) The Power Cosmic.
similarly Surfer would not be able to cut off The Speed Force because it does not operate under The Power Cosmic.
I think you view The Speed Force as dealing exclusively with motion and kinetic energy across the board, thus you seek to apply SF stealing (lending is a different question - similar to Cyclops blasting Hulk with his eyebeam) as if Surfer was empowered by The Speed Force.
Cosmic Awareness does provide a level of pre-cog, this is what Adam Warlock and Genis both have, iirc. Surfer too can see into the future as a result of pre-cognition (CA) as well as trans-light movement.
but I wasn't actually talking about pre-cognition (it was a bit unstructured and rambling I guess 😐) so much as the idea that if they start out on a vast battlefield Surfer would always see Flash coming, because Surfer can see lightyears ahead.
the asteroid dodgy feat was a clear and unambiguous demonstration of reflexes and reactions of The Surfer operating at millions of times the speed of light. since on-coming traffic multiplies the overall speed, you get asteroids travelling at tens of thousands of mph, you have surfer travelling in the opposite direction at 100s x C ... he still manages to navigate them easily.
this basically proves beyond argument that Flash's speed of attack would still be well within Surfer's speed of reaction. thus Flash would be dead in the first pico second, imo.