Now I'm jumping into theoretical things, but since tp would need MM to process what Wally thinks and he cannot do so at high speeds, tp is obviously cut at a certain point. A simple command of stop your heart and die doesn't need super fast feedback, just Wally's reception.
I'm just touching this discussion because I say Flash getting hit on panel, declaring himself slower than something, if I was not certain of what I read, I wouldn't even post it.
but in the same vein then, for the thought to act as an attack (as ss's THINKING about transmuting him would be) the thought would suffer from the same limitations as tp, no? the thought would still have to cross space and contact flash, as tp would have to cross space and contact him.
meh, you're rigth -- all theoretical. but makes for interesting discussion. 🙂
I don't know if in DC thought has actual movement or if its instantaneous, what I pulled from the scan is that once set in motion the command to attack Flash, he is not able to make that command stop, because the opponent's brain won't respond to pain or anything else, until the brain can process it. The other interpretation is that there is something instantaneous about thought and that once the message is sent -the slow part is sending it- Wally will be hit.
There is at least one reason to think Wally wouldn't dodge telepathy, the fact that he cannot detect it per se. Since he cannot know when the command is made, so he won't dodge and he would be likely to be hit.
the latter i agree with. it relies on the fact that he remains stationary though. in a battle, he would be moving instantly. and in a sense, the tp IS a thought. the thought is -- what is wally thinking? in that sense, wally was outracing thought.
again, there is evidence that he CAN be struck by tp, and proof he can outrace it. meh. that's comicbooks. 🙂
Originally posted by leonidas
it really becomes an unanswerable point -- PC vs SF. just addressing your 3 points:reaction speeds are at least equal, as observed in books, but again, flash has essentially UNLIMITED speed. ss is fast. his speed can NOT be unlimited. dodging asteroids is not tamtamount to using transmuting skills either. 😬 again, at the speeds we're discussing, ss really hasn't demonstrated ANY fine control of his powers.
cosmic awareness: CA doens't equal pre-cognition. he'd have to find THEN attack. by the time he found him, flash would be gone. ss can keep up the chase though, so ultimately flash would lose based solely on stamina. but he doesn't need CA for that to happen.
tracking/sighting first? again, i'd disagree. in terms of sheer speed, flash>ss imo. and flash has the ability thanls to the SF to track and find any speedster. 🙂 it's at least a dead-heat again, but flash's top end is unlimited, ss's DOES have a limit. i'd say if he COULD have gine faster trying to snatch the IG he would have.
you're saying SF analagous to one aspect of PC -- i'm saying it is seperate entirely. the issue becomes ontological as you pointed out. dc is set up differently. in a neutral universe where both access powers though, SF would be OUTSIDE the PC. speed comes from a different source in dc. and exactly as uthor was saying in his post -- ss could suffer for EXACTLY that reason. very FEW in dc tap the SF for their speed. supes, ww, gl -- EACH can and HAVE achieved FTL speeds, and yet flash>>all of them and is capable of stealing speed from ALL of them. why? BECAUSE they can't access SF or because they don't have flash's control over it. you are saying the SF is a ltd thing, that the PC is a catch-all. but in much the same way that ss is a herald for the PC, flash is a 'herald' of the SF. as regards heralds and other-dimensional energies -- ravenous caused ss a lot of trouble before his upgrade, and even after, it wasn't as if ss was just able to control and command the energies available to ravenous . . .
the bit where you're saying pulling flash's is NOT something that could result in a neutral universe is tantamount to saying flash can't use his powers to the fullest. 'regular' wally can and HAS pulled various versions of himself from throughout time. exiles ss and the keeper are NOT 'regular' versions of the ss. they are from separate universes and ss has no way of bringing them to bear. wally CAN bring others of 'himself' (as he has done in canon) to bear against ss if he needed to as that is a direct function of his control over the speed force.
and the notion that ss could 'shut-off' flash's access to SF would be analagous to stating that ss could simply 'shut-off' strange's access to HIS extra-dimensional energies . . . 😬 and again -- SF would NOT have to be 'superior' -- merely OUTSIDE, again, like magical energy is 'outside' the PC. SF is a 'mystical' source of energy. i really don't see why it would be subject to the PC.
so . . .
flash has access to LIMITLESS speeds. ss is fast, but not limitless in his speed.
SF is 'mystical'. magic is outside the PC. why wouldn't the SF be outside? in fact, as it comes from a different universe, not subject to marvel's laws, it seems only logical that it WOULD be outside ss's ability to affect (ie -- he couldn't deny access or implicitly control it and as a result would be suject to it like others not connected to it are subject to it)
ss HAS been overloaded in the past and driven almost insane -- and that was only by absorbing a small portion of the sun's energy. it is possible flash could overload him with speed. perhaps. and again -- it's not OVERPOWERING the pc or cosmic awareness. it's attacking him with a power (like magic) that is outside his sphere of influence. you're saying that ultimately PC>SF because of their spheres of influence.
i'm saying that is unproveable and as a result, flash COULD win this. SF is said to be derived from the godwave, much like the PC is derived ultimatelty from eternity.
PC>>>ss
SF>>>flashss was CHOSEN to wield PC
flash CHOSEN to wield SFyes ss's SCOPE of power is greater, but flash's DEPTH of power in this one area>ss's and in a forum battle, it may be enough to plausibly allow him to win, imo. good discussion though. 🙂
oh, and there may not be a scan of flash reenergizing a world, but isn't there a scan somewhere of flash stealing the speed of an entire planet . . .?
I certainly agree that the SF is outside the power cosmic but IMO for the flash to actually steal his speed would mean the speed force grants flash greater control over SSs KE than the power cosmic. Actually anytime the surfer has his personal enrgy manipulated it is a result of the fact that the person manipulating it has greater control than he does. Or if the person manipulating him is using a particular external channel/method it means that whatever channel he is using grants him greater control than SSs power cosmic.
I understand that people like superman and other speedsters who have reached lightspeed and who do not get their speed directly from the speedforce can still have their speed stolen by the flash but the same does not go for the surfer. Just as you have said that the surfer will be unable to affect the speedforce, it is most likely that the speed force will not affect the surfer. First of all the examples of superman and other speedsters do not apply because they exist in universe in which the speed force is the dimension that controls motion. Hence evn if their speed is not gotten directly from the speed force because it is the dimension that controls motion in their universe, their speed no matter how they obtained it still falls under its control. This is not true of surfer who is in a different universe entirely and has his speed supplied and controlled by the power cosmic. The surfer is also different from other characters like superman and hulk in the sense that he is a top enrgy manipulator and has substantial control over his bodily enrgy. Now if the surfer was in the DCU he would still fall under the lets say jurisdiction of the speedforce and evn though his speed is supplied and controlled by the PC would be affected.( because there whenit comes to controlling motion the speed force is supreme)
Howvwer the surfer is from marvel and just like the speed force would exist as a seperate power source not under the power cosmic, the portion of the power cosmic that controls the surfers speed would exist seperately from the speedforce. Hence in order for the flash to steal his speed it would have to be proven that the speedforce control of KE is greater than the surfers power cosmics control over his own bodily enrgies. This would lead to a face off between the PC and the speedforce which i belive no one wants to get into.
As for flash overloading him with speed, this would mean flash being able to overload SS enrgy absorbing capabilities which is not impossible but would once again lead us to speedforce vs PC argument. Therefore in order for the flash to win this, the speedforce would have to be dominant over the power cosmic in terms of KE enrgy control ( regarding SS) which IMO it is not. And with SS boatload of powers he wont have much trouble after flash fails to steal his speed.
the flaw in your arguement, is that the speed force is nerfed in a neutral setting. And that's essentially bias. Making it so the SF does not control all motion and KE, when in fact, it has been stated to, is essentially a forum nerf. Now, were it actually in the MU, then of course an arguement could be made. A neutral setting means everybody's powers work as though they were in their home universe.
but you're right that it's essentially less a battle of SS vs. Flash, and more Speed Force vs. Power Cosmic. Unfortunately, the level of intertwinement between the two means that you have to prove one or the other in order to declare a winner.
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
the flaw in your arguement, is that the speed force is nerfed in a neutral setting. And that's essentially bias. Making it so the SF does not control all motion and KE, when in fact, it has been stated to, is essentially a forum nerf. Now, were it actually in the MU, then of course an arguement could be made. A neutral setting means everybody's powers work as though they were in their home universe.but you're right that it's essentially less a battle of SS vs. Flash, and more Speed Force vs. Power Cosmic. Unfortunately, the level of intertwinement between the two means that you have to prove one or the other in order to declare a winner.
The problem here is that all though the speed force is said to control all KE, the power cosmic is said to control all the enrgies of the surfer. Therefore we have to determine whther the surfers power cosmic takes dominance or if the speedforce takes dominance. What Leonidas was saying was that the speed force would exist as a seperate force from the PC and outside its control, but this works both ways as the portion of the surfers PC that controls his KE would have to exist seprately and also outside the control of the speedforce. however evn though both of them will exist seprately, they will eventually have to interact with one dominating because the subject of surfers speed is something the two forces have a stake in hence bringing us to Speedforce vs PC.
which is an impossible point to debate in any way other than theoretical. we could start though by looking at the closest analog of the PC in dc. my guess would be the quantum field of cap atom. the q-field allows him to control the 4 fundamental forces of the universe in much the same way the PC allows ss to do so. ss's control>nate's, but the forces themselves seem a close approximation. imo, flash wouldn't have trouble stealing speed from CA. is there something else in dc that approximates the pc more closely?
Originally posted by llagrok
What? Lightning?Flash is letting Abra hit him, it's even stated in the second scan!
Originally posted by iceman24567
Wally was trying to make a point in those scans we all know that he was letting himself be hit 😆
jay stole it easily. wally made some odd claim i think. if he stole all of supes speed it would damage the earth or . . . something ridiculous. he did say he COULD steal it iirc. just that in that singular case, he made an odd exception and decided not to. i rarely call pis, but this does seem to qualify.
Originally posted by leonidas
jay stole it easily. wally made some odd claim i think. if he stole all of supes speed it would damage the earth or . . . something ridiculous. he did say he COULD steal it iirc. just that in that singular case, he made an odd exception and decided not to. i rarely call pis, but this does seem to qualify.
Originally posted by leonidas
jay didn't try to steal all of it if i'm remembering correctly. and no, wally is far greater in that respect and in his ability to steal/lend speed due to his direct connection with the force.
Originally posted by Mindship
A reasonable request but likely not gonna happen. It's just not "Silver Surfery," even though it is logically well within his powerset. This kind of fighting style is simple not what SS does. We wanna see beams and matter transformation; leave the flailing fisticuffs to the likes of Superman because that's what Supes does.But just for the satisfaction, I wouldn't mind seeing those after images myself.
👆 👆
Wow, that took me about an hour to read.
Both Janus and Leonidas have really good arguments.
I believe the consensus is Silver Surfer wins majority, but Flash COULD possibly steal a few wins.
Without a definitive answer as to which "power source" (SF OR PC) is more powerful, it is difficult to assess a clear winner.
However, with Surfer's vast powerset/versatility, and relatively decent display of speed feats, he should win majority 7-8/10.
Originally posted by leonidasIndeed.
but in the same vein then, for the thought to act as an attack (as ss's THINKING about transmuting him would be) the thought would suffer from the same limitations as tp, no? the thought would still have to cross space and contact flash, as tp would have to cross space and contact him.meh, you're rigth -- all theoretical. but makes for interesting discussion. 🙂
For DC or Marvel to depict TP in "classical physics" fashion already makes me, at least, go wtf.