Silver Surfer vs. The Flash (Wally)

Originally posted by janus77
Flash fanatics are a bit umm.. "special".
they think Surfer can be speedblitzed, when it's proven he travels/moves/reacts at speeds millions of times in excess of lightspeed.

they believe Flash can do an "IMP" and then deny anyone else can do it when, the very physics they employ guarantees that ALL FLT characters would be capable of it.

then again, they can't even explain how Flash would hurt Surfer, given that "infinite mass" exists in virtually ALL black holes and worm holes that Surfer goes through as a matter of course.

in short, they're a bit ... umm what's the word, you know, when someone's emotions and affection for a character takes them to preposterous positions? oh yeah, fanboyish! ✅

Surfer wins everytime, all the time. not a chance in hell for Flash against Surfer in battle.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! Flash's speed feats spit on Surfer's. Flash is faster than Surfer on reaction and traveling speed. FACT.

The IMP may be possible under physics, but it's a SPEED FORCE related power, and thus not accessible to characters without a Speed Force connection. They may be able to produce an IMP, but not with the relative ease or lack of impact on the enviroment. FACT.

Flash has KOed White martians and others. He's even hurt Superman, a character on par with Surfer in terms of durability, or even greater. FACT.

Flash's control over speed and KE exceed's Surfer's, and he can in fact stop SS dead in his tracks and steal his speed. FACT.

All of this is provable via scans and on-panel statements. So go pull the other one. the only fanboy here is you. 😉

Originally posted by janus77
Flash fanatics are a bit umm.. "special".
they think Surfer can be speedblitzed, when it's proven he travels/moves/reacts at speeds millions of times in excess of lightspeed.

they believe Flash can do an "IMP" and then deny anyone else can do it when, the very physics they employ guarantees that ALL FLT characters would be capable of it.

then again, they can't even explain how Flash would hurt Surfer, given that "infinite mass" exists in virtually ALL black holes and worm holes that Surfer goes through as a matter of course.

in short, they're a bit ... umm what's the word, you know, when someone's emotions and affection for a character takes them to preposterous positions? oh yeah, fanboyish! ✅

Surfer wins everytime, all the time. not a chance in hell for Flash against Surfer in battle.

Originally posted by janus77
Flash fanatics are a bit umm.. "special".
they think Surfer can be speedblitzed, when it's proven he travels/moves/reacts at speeds millions of times in excess of lightspeed.

they believe Flash can do an "IMP" and then deny anyone else can do it when, the very physics they employ guarantees that ALL FLT characters would be capable of it.

then again, they can't even explain how Flash would hurt Surfer, given that "infinite mass" exists in virtually ALL black holes and worm holes that Surfer goes through as a matter of course.

in short, they're a bit ... umm what's the word, you know, when someone's emotions and affection for a character takes them to preposterous positions? oh yeah, fanboyish! ✅

Surfer wins everytime, all the time. not a chance in hell for Flash against Surfer in battle.

so that must mean you've come up with a way to explain why flash can't just steal his speed. excellent. i'm dying to hear it! 🙂

originally posted by scoob

😛

Originally posted by leonidas
so that must mean you've come up with a way to explain why flash can't just steal his speed. excellent. i'm dying to hear it! 🙂

or for that matter, what precisely is "speed stealing"?
taking the "kinetic energy" from atoms?
umm two words: Power Cosmic.
Surfer draws energy in from the universe, there is no "stealing" that Flash could do that would tap out Surfer, so long as there are stars and suns and a cosmos for him to replenish energy from.
remember SURFER steals POWER COSMIC ("speed" PLUS explosive power, force, cosmic awareness etc) from other HERALDS!

unless you can show Flash taking "speed" from someone who can control sub-atomic particles on Surfer's level, there's not much of anything Flash is doing in this fight besides dying in the first pico second. Flash has no chance whatsoever of doing anything, anything, here. it's spite. might as well put Flash up against Galactus for all the difference it'll make to the outcome of the match.

it's not that I don't like Flash, I just know he's dead against Surfer. it's like putting Batman up against Doom... yes he preps great, but Doom IS prep, they're in different leagues.

Originally posted by janus77
Surfer has total sub-atomic control over himself and has demonstrated as much over other matter. what precisely is Flash going to be stealing when he's been made into a fuzzy orange handbag?

or for that matter, what precisely is "speed stealing"?
taking the "kinetic energy" from atoms?
umm two words: Power Cosmic.
Surfer draws energy in from the universe, there is no "stealing" that Flash could do that would tap out Surfer, so long as there are stars and suns and a cosmos for him to replenish energy from.
remember SURFER steals POWER COSMIC ("speed" PLUS explosive power, force, cosmic awareness etc) from other HERALDS!

unless you can show Flash taking "speed" from someone who can control sub-atomic particles on Surfer's level, there's not much of anything Flash is doing in this fight besides dying in the first pico second. Flash has no chance whatsoever of doing anything, anything, here. it's spite. might as well put Flash up against Galactus for all the difference it'll make to the outcome of the match.

it's not that I don't like Flash, I just know he's dead against Surfer. it's like putting Batman up against Doom... yes he preps great, but Doom IS prep, they're in different leagues.

janus is on a hot streak.

hehe, thanks 🙂.

😮ops: I got a little carried away there, leonidas sorry if that comes across as a bit... 'shouty', wasn't my intention.

Janus roxx

Originally posted by janus77
Surfer has total sub-atomic control over himself and has demonstrated as much over other matter. what precisely is Flash going to be stealing when he's been made into a fuzzy orange handbag?

or for that matter, what precisely is "speed stealing"?
taking the "kinetic energy" from atoms?
umm two words: Power Cosmic.
Surfer draws energy in from the universe, there is no "stealing" that Flash could do that would tap out Surfer, so long as there are stars and suns and a cosmos for him to replenish energy from.
remember SURFER steals POWER COSMIC ("speed" PLUS explosive power, force, cosmic awareness etc) from other HERALDS!

unless you can show Flash taking "speed" from someone who can control sub-atomic particles on Surfer's level, there's not much of anything Flash is doing in this fight besides dying in the first pico second. Flash has no chance whatsoever of doing anything, anything, here. it's spite. might as well put Flash up against Galactus for all the difference it'll make to the outcome of the match.

it's not that I don't like Flash, I just know he's dead against Surfer. it's like putting Batman up against Doom... yes he preps great, but Doom IS prep, they're in different leagues.

He's done it to other speed force users. Case closed. You don't replenish your KE if Flash takes it. Speed Force has control over all kinetic energy.

you are trying to compare apples and oranges, surfer is not connected to the speed force his power comes from other sources.

I just think that the Surfer could affect the very ground that any Flash ran on, and I mean to the point that he was literally running on hot ass magma, what would the Flash do then? What about the fact that Surfer has FTL speed reaction times? He dodges meteor storms while moving within a cluster of meteors faster than Monica Rambeau.

Is it possible that Surfer with the power cosmic be able to sense how fast the Flash was moving, and catch him like a baseball player catches a ball?

I think Norrin would beat the Flash in more ways than Flash could beat him.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
you are trying to compare apples and oranges, surfer is not connected to the speed force his power comes from other sources.

He asked for someone who can control their sub atomic particles. Speed Force users do that as a natural part of their powers. Barry Allen was the best, but Bart and the others were damn good at it as well.

Flash's best feat, in my opinion, was his battle against Zoom in which they fought all over earth in less than a second. If he replicates that against surfer, he should get a couple of wins from that alone, although his normal average is far lower than that Zoom fight.

As for Flash stealing speed from surfer, it really is an ambiguous point. As a speedster himself, Surfer should theoretically have access to the speed force if it existed in Marvel. There is also the point that I've never seen Flash steal speed from an entity that moves as quickly as SS, and who can constantly recharge himself by drawing power from the cosmos. In my opinion, under CIS rules, Flash is about as likely to steal speed in this fight from the get-go as the surfer is likely to immediately OHK Flash with transmutation from the get-go. SS has also been shown to have FTL reflexes, which could save his behind even if Flash tried to steal his speed, as long as said speed is not stolen instantaneously.

Outside of stealing SS' speed, the practicality of which is questionable, and using IMPs, SS simply has more ways to win than Wally.

Flash is NOT stealing surfers speed period. SS has absolute control over his own molecular structure which ends flash speed stealing dreams. He also has shown he has FTL reactions. Further evn if SS gets hit by some IMPs he is way too durable to be instantly koed as he is the most durable top tier. He has so many ways to kill flash its not funny.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He's done it to other speed force users. Case closed. You don't replenish your KE if Flash takes it. Speed Force has control over all kinetic energy.

Really that does not apply to surfer or marvel. The speed force may have control over all the KE in DC but certainly not in Marvel. Further Flashs ability to steal speed from other speedforce users is probably as a result of his superior mastery of the speed force. This however does NOT apply to SS who has nothing to do with the speedforce. Therefore to make the claim that wally can steal SS speed you would have to provide some proof of wally being able to usurp SS control of his subatomic particles and considering SS atomic/molecular control feats i doybt that the flash has them

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He's done it to other speed force users. Case closed. You don't replenish your KE if Flash takes it. Speed Force has control over all kinetic energy.

as I said, someone that controls his own matter to sub-atomic levels and manipulates other matter to the level that Surfer does.

can show me one example of Flash transmuting a man to stone, or say a toaster to gold or say weapons to toy guns?

and that, by the way, is the minimum you are required to do to even begin to push your specious argument of "Flash speed steals", with respect to Surfer. remember that, it's the ante to the table.

once you sit down, you've then got the unfortunate fact that I hold ALL the aces 🙂.

Flash steals "speed" from some inferior characters, fine, Surfer STEALS SPEED AND MORE FROM HERALDS!

Surfer steals Flash's speed just for the hell of it 😄.

oh and no, Flash couldn't even steal Surfer's speed if Surfer just allowed him, because Surfer would be constantly taking in (without effort) vast amounts of cosmic energies, and he has had battles where characters have attempted to steal his energies to use against him, only to find he has even more - and that's not to even mention how he can steal energy from an opponent's attack.

Flash dies in the first pico second, unless someone can come up with a genuine reason why Surfer couldn't just take Flash's head off with a PC blast or with the surfboard.

Originally posted by janus77
you're reaching ridiculously there. no wonder you're so anxious to "close" the matter there.

as I said, someone that controls his own matter to sub-atomic levels and manipulates other matter to the level that Surfer does.

can show me one example of Flash transmuting a man to stone, or say a toaster to gold or say weapons to toy guns?

and that, by the way, is the minimum you are required to do to even begin to push your specious argument of "Flash speed steals", with respect to Surfer. remember that, it's the ante to the table.

once you sit down, you've then got the unfortunate fact that I hold ALL the aces 🙂.

Flash steals "speed" from some inferior characters, fine, Surfer STEALS SPEED AND MORE FROM HERALDS!

Surfer steals Flash's speed just for the hell of it 😄.

oh and no, Flash couldn't even steal Surfer's speed if Surfer just allowed him, because Surfer would be constantly taking in (without effort) vast amounts of cosmic energies, and he has had battles where characters have attempted to steal his energies to use against him, only to find he has even more - and that's not to even mention how he can steal energy from an opponent's attack.

Flash dies in the first pico second, unless someone can come up with a genuine reason why Surfer couldn't just take Flash's head off with a PC blast or with the surfboard.

Originally posted by Acrosurge

Really, how much better does it get when Surfer fanboys and Flash fanboys go at each other? 😄

Juggernaut v Hulk!

I love Wally and would give him the nod in a race but in a battle, unless Wally begins performing time jumps or speed stealing, I'll give the majority to the Surfer.

Originally posted by janus77
hehe, thanks 🙂.

😮ops: I got a little carried away there, leonidas sorry if that comes across as a bit... 'shouty', wasn't my intention.

😂

don't worry, i'm a big boy. 😄 and i'll continue to play devil's advocate here because there are a couple problems with some of your underlying assumptions.

first, this assumption that ss has absolute control over his molecular structure. where exactly are you getting that from? we've seen ss peeled out of his skin, i've seen stranger easily cut him off from his power cosmic, i've seen him wounded and not heal immediately. to the same extent that flash's powers are being 'forum-ized', ss's are being likewise . . . extended. j'onnz ALSO has nearly perfect control of his molecular structure but flash could certainly steal HIS speed.

now the biggest issue here is essentially unproveable. and that is that the speed force would fall under the purview of the power cosmic. i believe it would NOT. if that is the case, then flash COULD steal the ss's speed. essentially, he would be cut off from all kinetic motion, in exactly the same way stranger cut him off from the PC, and their would be nothing ss could do about it. there are plenty of fast characters in DC, and flash is capable of stealing speed from any of them because they are (a) not connected to the speed force or (b) his control over the speed force exceeds their own.

these inter-universal issues are impossible to resolve because you can just say speed force doesn't exist in marvel so ss wins every time. and of course he would. by the same token, dropping ss into dc would NOT mean he could suddenly access the speed force.

and of course flash ONLY wins if he can access the speed force. since he's been stated as having the MOST control over it, the CLOSEST connection, even allowing that ss might be able to tap it with PC, flash's control over speed force>>>ss's who might access it subconsciously or . . . whatever.

there is also the issue of flash LENDING speed, say to ss's mind, making it impossible for ss to think or act, or perhaps he could lend him ENOUGH speed to trap ss in the speed force or just have ss chase him into the speed force? you'll say ss could just break free. maybe, but maybe not.

all's i'm saying is that it is possible for flash to win in a forum scenario. in a comic? unless there was some very clever writing, ss would win nearly every time.

Originally posted by leonidas
😂

don't worry, i'm a big boy. 😄 and i'll continue to play devil's advocate here because there are a couple problems with some of your underlying assumptions.

first, this assumption that ss has absolute control over his molecular structure. where exactly are you getting that from? we've seen ss peeled out of his skin, i've seen stranger easily cut him off from his power cosmic, i've seen him wounded and not heal immediately. to the same extent that flash's powers are being 'forum-ized', ss's are being likewise . . . extended. j'onnz ALSO has nearly perfect control of his molecular structure but flash could certainly steal HIS speed.

now the biggest issue here is essentially unproveable. and that is that the speed force would fall under the purview of the power cosmic. i believe it would NOT. if that is the case, then flash COULD steal the ss's speed. essentially, he would be cut off from all kinetic motion, in exactly the same way stranger cut him off from the PC, and their would be nothing ss could do about it. there are plenty of fast characters in DC, and flash is capable of stealing speed from any of them because they are (a) not connected to the speed force or (b) his control over the speed force exceeds their own.

these inter-universal issues are impossible to resolve because you can just say speed force doesn't exist in marvel so ss wins every time. and of course he would. by the same token, dropping ss into dc would NOT mean he could suddenly access the speed force.

and of course flash ONLY wins if he can access the speed force. since he's been stated as having the MOST control over it, the CLOSEST connection, even allowing that ss might be able to tap it with PC, flash's control over speed force>>>ss's who might access it subconsciously or . . . whatever.

there is also the issue of flash LENDING speed, say to ss's mind, making it impossible for ss to think or act, or perhaps he could lend him ENOUGH speed to trap ss in the speed force or just have ss chase him into the speed force? you'll say ss could just break free. maybe, but maybe not.

all's i'm saying is that it is possible for flash to win in a forum scenario. in a comic? unless there was some very clever writing, ss would win nearly every time.

Actually on second thought the word absolute should not be used. This is because unless you are the top dog in the universe your have control over your molecular structure only to a given level. You would think that the Big g would have total control over hid molecular structure but when going up against the likes of LT he would be helpless. The same goes for LT in comparison to beyonder and for evry character. You can only have control of your molecular structure up to a given point. Howver the point flash being unable to steal SS speed really does not come from his control over his molecular structure but rather his control over his bodily enrgies( KE included). As SS is a masteful enrgy manipulator he can manipulate not only his own but also other peoples enrgies( not supreme control however). Therefore for flash to be able to steal his speed he would have to show that he has greater control of SS KE than SS does.

Now in Dc the speed force might give you control over KE but anybody would be hardpressed to prove that such control would affect marvel characters and it would be evn more difficult to prove that the level to which the flash can control kinetic enrgy is greater than the level to which SS can control his own KE. Further evn if we make the assumption that flash can steal SS KE we cant forget that SS can replenish his enrgy from anywhere in the cosmos and could likely replenish the stolen enrgy.

Now to the issue of lending speed to SS, since what the flash does is increase KE it might not really affect SS who would likely absorb it/ transmute or some other form of manipulation. Howver this once again boils down to the issue of whether the speed forces total control of KE would include SS and the power cosmic . ALL in all the flash being able to win would entail us putting the speed force over the power cosmic but because they exist intwo different universes we cannot directly relate them and without that SS wins