Originally posted by MindsetWell, at least you tried. So let me take a look at each scan and see if we have feats that clearly surpass the ones I posted of Ult. Cap. 1) The first scan has Rhino slamming his head into concrete. Rhino is class 80 from what I have found. It has nothing in the way of comparing to a double fist piledriver from a class 100+ like Ult. Abomination. If anything, it's comparable to Ult. Hulk beating on Ult. Cap. If Ult. Hulk was as weak as a class 80 character. That scan does not clearly surpass Ult. Cap's feat. 2) The second scan is comparable to Ult. Cap's dive. Even if Ult. Cap weighs twice as much as Spidey and Spidey is obviously injured from the fall, it's comparable. But again, the scan does not clearly surpass Ult. Cap's feat. 3+4) The third scan involves a poison of ambiguous strength. I hardly think that qualifies as even coming close to Ult. Cap's tetradotoxin feat, unless you can find some context there that tells us the poison gas is more than a million times the lethal dose of a healthy man. Also, the fourth scan is quite unclear to me. Has Spiderman been poisoned or is Dr. Octopus saying in the last panel that Parker hasn't been poisoned at all? 5) And the fifth scan is I guess comparable to Ult. Cap getting thrown from his rocket in World War II? Is that what you intended? Well, assuming that is a nuclear warhead and not a regular ballistic missile and that he fell from the height of the
Durability:
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7742/feat17durability2kf1.jpghttp://img523.imageshack.us/img523/4231/feat10skillstr0.jpg
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/896/feat9strengthmm4.jpg
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/4256/feat4durabilityra9.jpg
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3887/feat9durability4ha3.jpg
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3671/feat9durability5er7.jpgI don't remember Ult. Cap ever showing any strength feats comparable to Spiderman, 616 Cap has koed Rhino with a kick, that doesn't mean he is as strong as Spiderman. And I don't think Ult. Cap has shown one more than one occasion that kind of strength.
And I see that you're trying to compare Ult. Cap kicking Juggernaut in one shot with 616 Cap jump-kicking Rhino. Well, in case you weren't aware, Rhino was suffocating from a lack of air in that instance and despite his enhancements to his actual body, his face is nowhere near as durable as his Rhino skin nor is his strength or durability anywhere near Ult. Juggernaut's level.
Originally posted by ScooblessDid you read the conversation that Cap has with SHIELD over his intercom in that middle panel? Do you really think that takes a single second and that Ult. Hulk was conscious throughout all of that and simply allowed Ult. Cap to get close to him with the antidote? Cmon, now. You're better than that.
He was down for about a second then got straight back up, he was never knocked out:
Originally posted by Daredevil1That was... a unique dodge. Instead of actually dealing with 616 Spiderman, you started talking about 616 Cap. And even when you tried, you still failed. Because even if some of them are comparable, most of them are simply not. I mean, you actually compare Thunderball to Ult. Juggernaut? Did you do what I told you and read some Ult. X-Men or are you still ignorant as his strength and durability? Or are you just overinflating Thunderball's strength levels? I mean, Thunderball has been noted in databases as class 10. Personally, I think that's clearly wrong, and consensus puts him at around 15-40. But class 40 against Ult. Juggernaut? Talk about ignorance.
Definitly agree that he loses to 616 Spiderman. More like a poster overrates U.Cap.
Either way, the feats are not clearly superior. Which is all I asked. You say that 616 Spidey is clearly superior than Ult. Cap in many physical aspects. Well, I gave you the chance to prove it and you didn't. It was put up or shut up time and you quite predictably dodged because you know as well as I do, that you have no proof to back up that assertion. If anything, the above guy was at least able to show comparative feats in durability, and yet, not clearly superior. Consider yourself educated.
Ult. Cap 6/10.
P.S. And show me where 616 Cap actually one-shots Korvac and Hulk without any other interference or damage infliction. This I'd LOVE to see. But maybe it's appropriate for you to stop embarassing yourself.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
P.S. And show me where 616 Cap actually one-shots Korvac and Hulk without any other interference or damage infliction. This I'd LOVE to see. But maybe it's appropriate for you to stop embarassing yourself.
Well for starters arent Hulk and Korvac more powerful than Ult Hulk? Bad logic to me.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneAhem. I was asking for the veracity of his claims. Do you have the scans or issue numbers where 616 Cap physically knocks out either Korvac or Hulk with a single blow? No other fighting, no plot device, no previous damage soak? I'm calling bs on his claims, not arguing that Korvac or Hulk aren't stronger than Ult. Hulk.
Well for starters arent Hulk and Korvac more powerful than Ult Hulk? Bad logic to me.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ahem. I was asking for the veracity of his claims. Do you have the scans or issue numbers where 616 Cap physically knocks out either Korvac or Hulk with a single blow? No other fighting, no plot device, no previous damage soak? I'm calling bs on his claims, not arguing that Korvac or Hulk aren't stronger than Ult. Hulk.
The answer is no, but I dont see how its relevant. Im assuming that he was arguing that 616 Cap is better than Ult Cap and therefore Ult Cap is not that big a deal. Im also guessing you were arguing that Ult Cap is by comparing his fight with Ult Hulk to 616 Cap fights.
Of course the answer is no. As to relevancy, what exactly are you injecting into this conversation here?
It's arguable that 616 Cap is better than Ult. Cap if you take them as a whole package. But if you're talking about sheer physicality, Ult. Cap is stronger and many times more durable than 616 Cap. And I am not using the Ult. Hulk fist-fight as the only indicia of this. If you reread back to my further posts I give several physical feats that have nothing to do with the Ult. Hulk fight.
But I don't see what point you're trying to make here other than failing to see what is relevant by your projected intentions onto me and what is relevant to the actual purposes of my posts. "Is 616 Spidey vastly superior to Ult. Cap in a physical sense?" The answer is no. They are comparable. Ult. Cap has wrestled evenly with Ult. Spidey, one-shotted Ult. Juggernaut, taken a full piledriver from Ult. Abomination, leapt several stories straight up, fallen from great heights without harm, can still fight despite taking a poison dose a million times more lethal than necessary, etc., etc. That's the point that's been made. Anything else has been a dodge or side debate.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Of course the answer is no. As to relevancy, what exactly are you injecting into this conversation here?
I simply thought the argument was that Ult Cap is nothing like 616 Cap and therefore Spiderman will kick his ass.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's arguable that 616 Cap is better than Ult. Cap if you take them as a whole package. But if you're talking about sheer physicality, Ult. Cap is stronger and many times more durable than 616 Cap. And I am not using the Ult. Hulk fist-fight as the only indicia of this. If you reread back to my further posts I give several physical feats that have nothing to do with the Ult. Hulk fight.But I don't see what point you're trying to make here other than failing to see what is relevant by your projected intentions onto me and what is relevant to the actual purposes of my posts. "Is 616 Spidey vastly superior to Ult. Cap in a physical sense?" The answer is no. They are comparable. Ult. Cap has wrestled evenly with Ult. Spidey, one-shotted Ult. Juggernaut, taken a full piledriver from Ult. Abomination, leapt several stories straight up, fallen from great heights without harm, can still fight despite taking a poison dose a million times more lethal than necessary, etc., etc. That's the point that's been made. Anything else has been a dodge or side debate.
Well heres the thing 616 Cap is not as strong or durable as Spiderman and 616 Cap has feats that are comparable to most of the feats you have mentioned.
I also think the thread starter was refering to 25 tons Spiderman if this is the case Ult Cap loses. That version of Spiderman has handled Shen Kuei ( yes I know hes not as tough as Ult Cap im talking about skill) with ease. Ult Cap is not skillful or fast enough to keep up with this Spiderman and this will be how he will win.
Ultimate Cap isn't really anything like 616 Cap. Ultimate Cap is stronger, more durable and has a greater healing factor. He is also a killer and he cheats. 616 Cap is weaker, less durable, but has more experience (which prove particularly useful against Spidey since he knows him inside and out) and greater proven martial arts skills. So what? You've got a lot of pluses and minuses.
People have already failed to prove that 616 Spidey is more durable than Ult. Cap. His durability is comparable to Ult. Cap's at best. And you're using Shen Kuei, a normal human with no enhancements, as a foil for Ult. Cap?
... k.
It's arguable that Spiderman will win. I only gave Ult. Cap 6/10 anyway. I merely expanded my participation in the thread because I was responding to what other people believe is 616 Spidey's vastly superior physical advantages. As far as I've seen and proved, they're comparable on nearly all physical fronts. If you want to make a Ult. Cap vs. 616 Cap thread, by all means. As far as I see, you're arguing apples and I'm arguing oranges. Keep on topic. Ult. Cap vs. 616 Spidey.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ultimate Cap isn't really anything like 616 Cap. Ultimate Cap is stronger, more durable and has a greater healing factor. He is also a killer and he cheats. 616 Cap is weaker, less durable, but has more experience (which prove particularly useful against Spidey since he knows him inside and out) and greater proven martial arts skills. So what? You've got a lot of pluses and minuses.
Nevermind.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
People have already failed to prove that 616 Spidey is more durable than Ult. Cap. His durability is comparable to Ult. Cap's at best. And you're using Shen Kuei, a normal human with no enhancements, as a foil for Ult. Cap?... k.
The point is as far as im concerned Ult Cap is considerably less skilled than Shen, which means Ult Cap is going to get hit alot more times than Spiderman.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0It's arguable that Spiderman will win. I only gave Ult. Cap 6/10 anyway. I merely expanded my participation in the thread because I was responding to what other people believe is 616 Spidey's vastly superior physical advantages. As far as I've seen and proved, they're comparable on nearly all physical fronts. If you want to make a Ult. Cap vs. 616 Cap thread, by all means. As far as I see, you're arguing apples and I'm arguing oranges. Keep on topic. Ult. Cap vs. 616 Spidey.
It was on topic I already explained why. Anyway as far as im concerned Spiderman can take him in H2H and he has his webbing Ult Cap loses.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Well, at least you tried. So let me take a look at each scan and see if we have feats that clearly surpass the ones I posted of Ult. Cap. 1) The first scan has Rhino slamming his head into concrete. Rhino is class 80 from what I have found. It has nothing in the way of comparing to a double fist piledriver from a class 100+ like Ult. Abomination. If anything, it's comparable to Ult. Hulk beating on Ult. Cap. If Ult. Hulk was as weak as a class 80 character. That scan does not clearly surpass Ult. Cap's feat. 2) The second scan is comparable to Ult. Cap's dive. Even if Ult. Cap weighs twice as much as Spidey and Spidey is obviously injured from the fall, it's comparable. But again, the scan does not clearly surpass Ult. Cap's feat. 3+4) The third scan involves a poison of ambiguous strength. I hardly think that qualifies as even coming close to Ult. Cap's tetradotoxin feat, unless you can find some context there that tells us the poison gas is more than a million times the lethal dose of a healthy man. Also, the fourth scan is quite unclear to me. Has Spiderman been poisoned or is Dr. Octopus saying in the last panel that Parker hasn't been poisoned at all? 5) And the fifth scan is I guess comparable to Ult. Cap getting thrown from his rocket in World War II? Is that what you intended? Well, assuming that is a nuclear warhead and not a regular ballistic missile and that he fell from the height of the
upper atmosphere and not anything less, if he survived then it is comparable. Parker does appear to be going unconscious from the strain of the flight itself whereas Ult. Cap was climbing around and pulling plates, having a conversation and chuckin grenades into the rocket. But I don't know if Spidey was weakened from something else or not. Do you have context or an issue number? Nevertheless, it's still not a feat that clearly surpasses Ult. Cap's anyway.And I see that you're trying to compare Ult. Cap kicking Juggernaut in one shot with 616 Cap jump-kicking Rhino. Well, in case you weren't aware, Rhino was suffocating from a lack of air in that instance and despite his enhancements to his actual body, his face is nowhere near as durable as his Rhino skin nor is his strength or durability anywhere near Ult. Juggernaut's level.
Did you read the conversation that Cap has with SHIELD over his intercom in that middle panel? Do you really think that takes a single second and that Ult. Hulk was conscious throughout all of that and simply allowed Ult. Cap to get close to him with the antidote? Cmon, now. You're better than that.
That was... a unique dodge. Instead of actually dealing with 616 Spiderman, you started talking about 616 Cap. And even when you tried, you still failed. Because even if some of them are comparable, most of them are simply not. I mean, you actually compare Thunderball to Ult. Juggernaut? Did you do what I told you and read some Ult. X-Men or are you still ignorant as his strength and durability? Or are you just overinflating Thunderball's strength levels? I mean, Thunderball has been noted in databases as class 10. Personally, I think that's clearly wrong, and consensus puts him at around 15-40. But class 40 against Ult. Juggernaut? Talk about ignorance.Either way, the feats are not clearly superior. Which is all I asked. You say that 616 Spidey is clearly superior than Ult. Cap in many physical aspects. Well, I gave you the chance to prove it and you didn't. It was put up or shut up time and you quite predictably dodged because you know as well as I do, that you have no proof to back up that assertion. If anything, the above guy was at least able to show comparative feats in durability, and yet, not clearly superior. Consider yourself educated.
Ult. Cap 6/10.
P.S. And show me where 616 Cap actually one-shots Korvac and Hulk without any other interference or damage infliction. This I'd LOVE to see. But maybe it's appropriate for you to stop embarassing yourself.
You already embarrassed yourself with this post. You lost this before you even started and its moot since I countered already most of your feats as you still assert the same ideas without them being true.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ultimate Cap isn't really anything like 616 Cap. Ultimate Cap is stronger, more durable and has a greater healing factor. He is also a killer and he cheats. 616 Cap is weaker, less durable, but has more experience (which prove particularly useful against Spidey since he knows him inside and out) and greater proven martial arts skills. So what? You've got a lot of pluses and minuses.People have already failed to prove that 616 Spidey is more durable than Ult. Cap. His durability is comparable to Ult. Cap's at best. And you're using Shen Kuei, a normal human with no enhancements, as a foil for Ult. Cap?
... k.
It's arguable that Spiderman will win. I only gave Ult. Cap 6/10 anyway. I merely expanded my participation in the thread because I was responding to what other people believe is 616 Spidey's vastly superior physical advantages. As far as I've seen and proved, they're comparable on nearly all physical fronts. If you want to make a Ult. Cap vs. 616 Cap thread, by all means. As far as I see, you're arguing apples and I'm arguing oranges. Keep on topic. Ult. Cap vs. 616 Spidey.
616 Spidey defeats U.Cap it was already shown 616 Spidey takes hits from the real Juggernaut. The U.Version is a watered down version.
Real Juggernaut hit greater then the abomonation who got wrecked by U.Hulk. Spiderman has taken hits from the real Hulk who is also greater then U.Hulk. Also U.Cap clearly did not take it full on the Abom first hit which you misrepresent anyway.
And U.Cap did not go toe to toe with U.Hulk as he lost easily once U.Hulk started fighting back. Even other posters have noticed you fanboy level on U.Cap.
Your credability is so down the drain no one is going to take seriously to whatever you say.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Show me 616 Spidey's feats that far surpass these feats and I will concede that I overestimated Ult. Cap's physicality as compared to 616 Spidey's.
You think U.Cap's strength feats are comparable to Spiderman is even laughable at best.
Show me U.Cap doing something like this.
http://img61.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spideyliftstrain15mmhi5.jpg
Or knocking something over thats insanely "heavy" with just a "flick" of his finger.
http://img15.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/Amazing_Spider-Man_32-03.jpg
To throwing a jeep towards the top of a building.
http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jeepxm7.jpg
All you have for lifting on U.Cap is a tree and some weights and lets face it. Those pale before Spiderman strength feats.
Spiderman has lifted even Tanks completely off the ground.
But........but........the tree. LOL
Oh please stop blubbering. I posted the challenge, you choked on all four feats. You haven't shown anything from 616 Spidey that clearly surpasses those four feats I listed. Of course, you outright lie in several of your statements, for instance, how about this doozy, "Cap has one shotted by your definition of it anyhow Korvac, Thunderball, Hulk." Outright lie. Utterly. He neither one-shotted Korvac, nor Hulk.
Or how about this garbage, "Even healed from a bullet to the head in a mere minute." If you notice the scan, he was clinically dead for 12 minutes. So you either can't read or you just outright lied again about some feat:
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7548/page003004sn5.jpg
As for strength feats, I never argued that Ult. Cap clearly surpassed Spidey's. But he rivals them. A jeep weighs about 1 and a half tons? Even by your own admission, Ult. Cap's a 4-5 tonner at would at the very least be able to lift the jeep. It'd only take a 10-15 tonner to throw one around. The trees that were falling down and crushing those military trucks are clearly heavier than those trucks, which are heavier than that civilian jeep. If Ult. Cap can hold those trees up, then yes sure, he could reasonably throw a jeep towards a motel window:
http://img397.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled5154zw.jpg
In addition to this strength feat, we have Ult. Cap keeping up with Herr Kleiser reasonably well in a brutal H2H fight. And just as a frame of reference, since you like jeeps so much, Herr Kleiser smashed Ult. Hulk with a jeep. Ult. Cap also wrestled free from several Chinese supersoldiers when they were distracted. And just as a frame of reference, a few dozen of those Chinese supersoldiers toppled the Statue of Liberty.
And from what I remember of the 616 Spidey vs. Juggs fight, Juggernaut never double fist-pounded Spidey into the ground:
http://img379.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spidermanjuggy7ec.jpg
Whereas Ult. Abomination did fully double fist-pound Ult. Cap into the ground, everyone else can see the scans and see for themselves:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=10341029
As for an outright liar like yourself, losing "credibility in your eyes" means nothing to me. Consider yourself educated AND exposed. Stop embarssing yourself.
Notice I said by your definition of bring down. But since your ignorant go read Fallen son and you'll see Cap bring down Hulk.
You'll see Cap one shot Thunder ball.
You'll see Cap "hurt" Korvac. The Korvac one I was wrong and I can admit my mistake unlike you. And he hurt Korvac.
But Hulk he did take knock him out and Thunderbal he put him down with one punch for a bit as Thunderbal even spouted blood.
Also I notice that tree feat is the only strength feat you have for U.Cap for lifting.
Meaning its a "high-end feat" in lifting strength. Does not equate to his regular showings.
Its like me showing off a feat of 616 Cap throwing his shield and intercepting a ICBM or Cap making Thor/Ironman feel his strength.
High end feats are not the standard.
Azrael is a genetically modified human. The Order of St. Dumas radically modified his genes at birth by splicing them with animals. I don't think it's ever been established just how strong he actually was. I'm quite sure he's more than a 1 tonner. He's not a regular human and he's quite a beast.
You made honest mistakes? Fine. I can live with that.
In my opinion, Ult. Abomination only hit Ult. Cap once. He then threw him over to Abdul. How you think the double fist piledriver didn't clearly connect, but some second punch does (and it looks more like he just threw him, not punched him) is overreaching a little bit too much. You're straining too hard to belittle his on-panel feats:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=10341029
I read 'Fallen Son,' and even I raised an eyebrow. But you still had Cap and Spidey both fighting Hulk in that flashback. That wasn't a one-shot. And Thunderball is at best, a class 40 by forum consensus. But take that with a grain of salt because databases put him at class 10. One-shotting Thunderball has nothing on one-shotting Ult. Juggernaut.
How many comics has Ult. Cap been in? Three dozen? He doesn't even have a solo title. How many lifting feats is he supposed to have? You've got the tree and then him working out in a gym with old outdated equipment which would never support a single ton of weight in any exercise let alone several tons.
So you look to context and see if it makes sense for Ult. Cap to hold up a tree that looks to weigh 15-20 tons. And the context is revealing: 1) He can go toe-to-toe with Herr Kleiser, who smashed Ult. Hulk with a jeep; 2) can jump several stories straight up just like 616 Spidey; 3) has duked it out with Ult. Green Goblin and Ult. Hulk; 4) fought through SHIELD supersoldiers when pumped with a poison dose 1,000,000X more than lethal dosage; 5) wrestled free from half a dozen Chinese supersoldiers (when a few dozen are all thats necessary to pick up and topple the Statue of Liberty); 6) sustained a double fist piledriver from Ult. Abomination; 7) and one-shotted Ult. Juggernaut. What's so unbelievably ridiculous about Ult. Cap being class 10-20 (which rivals Spiderman) when he does all these things ON-PANEL regularly? When you take the totality of the circumstances of his limited appearances into consideration, is it REALLY that insanely illogical that he might actually just be class 10 or class 20? Honestly?
Either way, I'm not out to conclusively prove Ult. Cap is just as strong or stronger than 616 Spidey. Fact is, the point of this conversation has always been to argue that 616 Spidey is not vastly superior in physical respects. I've made my case, you have your own opinions.
