Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Azrael is a genetically modified human. The Order of St. Dumas radically modified his genes at birth by splicing them with animals. I don't think it's ever been established just how strong he actually was. I'm quite sure he's more than a 1 tonner. He's not a regular human and he's quite a beast.
He's a beast but there are many beasts. And know to my knowledge he's always been around 1 ton from consensus as well as even Phantom Zone showed this in the last debate you were in.
You made honest mistakes? Fine. I can live with that.In my opinion, Ult. Abomination only hit Ult. Cap once. He then threw him over to Abdul. How you think the double fist piledriver didn't clearly connect, but some second punch does (and it looks more like he just threw him, not punched him) is overreaching a little bit too much. You're straining too hard to belittle his on-panel feats:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=10341029
Straining but it doesn't not show the connection he even cries in pain for the second hit. Not the first plus Abom telegraphed that attack from a mile away plus the fist don't look to be actually connecting make it vague at best.
Strain.....not really when its that vague.
I read 'Fallen Son,' and even I raised an eyebrow. But you still had Cap and Spidey both fighting Hulk in that flashback. That wasn't a one-shot.
One shot know but this is the real hulk unlike the pale imitation of U.Hulk version. Lets not go pretending U.Hulk is superior then Hulk. Plus Spiderman only assisted Cap with "one" punch a abysmal looking one at that. As Cap from memory only did what.......3? That less then U.Cap and his circumstances at that.
And Thunderball is at best, a class 40 by forum consensus. But take that with a grain of salt because databases put him at class 10. One-shotting Thunderball has nothing on one-shotting Ult. Juggernaut.
Let see the proof with U.Juggernaugt out unconscious last I checked it wasn't shown. Plus wasn't U.Cap wearing a gas mask at that as U.Jugg was not that could have been a factor not sure. But either way if it doesn't show U.Jugg laying limp on the floor and out. You have no proof.
How many comics has Ult. Cap been in? Three dozen? He doesn't even have a solo title. How many lifting feats is he supposed to have? You've got the tree and then him working out in a gym with old outdated equipment which would never support a single ton of weight in any exercise let alone several tons.
Yeah you also got the quote of him getting weaker as to why he chose that gym. Plus he wouldn't work out with it unless it would aid him. If he can lift what you say he can.
So you look to context and see if it makes sense for Ult. Cap to hold up a tree that looks to weigh 15-20 tons.
Again his only high end feat. The only other strength feats that you have are in a annual throwing his triangle shield in concrete, breaking through a wooden door, lifting unimpressive weights, to maybe some other minimal ones that I'm forgetting breaking those small metal straps when he first awoke from ice. Then of course that tree again the outline of his standard. Plus again it doesn't look to impressive since Azrael someone who has never been stated to my knowledge to rival Spiderman strength. Which is what your claiming for U.Cap which isn't backed up by anything that remotely resembles Spiderman level strength from his feats.
Cap has his own high feats like bucking a thick steel door that are just as impressive as the tree in there own right.
http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capstrenfdoor1tk0.jpg
http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capdoor2za5.jpg
To catching a thick torpedo as its going like 60 or 90 mph.
http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericastrenf2no0.jpg
To even breaking out of cryogenic freezing and this was after Cap was weakened as well.
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4712/captainamerica444p22uk1.jpg
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3151/captainamerica4450405al5.jpg
And the context is revealing: 1) He can go toe-to-toe with Herr Kleiser, who smashed Ult. Hulk with a jeep; 2)
A Kleiser who was previously hurt by a Jet ramming him and exploding on him. As he was also on fire. A Kleiser who was shot by U.Nick with a machine gun. Yeah he only had the advantage by using his shield to cut him apart.
616 Cap has a similar feat with Baron Blood. Handbooks don't do Blood any proud as they have him at 1000 lbs IIRC but on the books he put down Namor briefly and then later defeated all the Invaders along with Namor. His strength was stated to be in the Namor level in the books as well but not there either.
And during his fight with Cap there was circumstances as the Kleiser fight but in the end Cap decapitated Blood. But it doesn't demonstrate remotely that Cap is as strong as Spiderman. Nor does U.Caps fight with the scroll.
can jump several stories straight up just like 616 Spidey; 3)
As I've seen 616 Cap accomplish.
has duked it out with Ult. Green Goblin and Ult. Hulk; 4)
As I covered the circumstances for these fights and Cap could replicate. Again nothing demonstrating he's above Spiderman.
fought through SHIELD supersoldiers when pumped with a poison dose 1,000,000X more than lethal dosage; 5)
Definitely impressive immune or healing from the dosage. But again Cap recovered in 12 minutes from being deemed dead to even block off a foreign living virus that affected true superhumans like She-hulk but not him.
Also in volume 3.. Cap survived inside a nuclear microwave and broke out with none other then his shield. Immediately after this he went through a group of Hyde agents only to fight the supersoilder Protocide. And Protocide easily went through USAgent. Cap IIRC even had a small advantage at that in there fight.
wrestled free from half a dozen Chinese supersoldiers (when a few dozen are all thats necessary to pick up and topple the Statue of Liberty); 6
Cap with a kick free himself from the grips of Hulk. To even wrestle with the tentacles of the female version of Dr. Octopus.
) sustained a double fist piledriver from Ult. Abomination; 7)
Debatable but even if he did Cap has taken a beating from Extremis Ironman as Iroman even flew him through a thick wall. 616 Cap even took a beat down from a blood lust Ironman in another annual. To even take a back hand that sent him flying from King Thor himself.
and one-shotted Ult. Juggernaut.
U.Juggs wasn't shown anywhere KO'ed. Plus Cap has put down Thunderball briefly and even hurt Korvak and had King Thor down with circumstances which is more impressive then a non-seen U.Juggs.
What's so unbelievably ridiculous about Ult. Cap being class 10-20 (which rivals Spiderman) when he does all these things ON-PANEL regularly?
Because there not that superior in comparison to Cap to begin with.
None of his lifting feats are on par with Spiderman. You lack of strength feats and that one outliner feat in no way or shape or form proves this. As even Azrael perfomed that similar feat. But he's no Spiderman.
When you take the totality of the circumstances of his limited appearances into consideration, is it REALLY that insanely illogical that he might actually just be class 10 or class 20? Honestly?
Yes because
A. His lifting strength feats don't match 616 Spiderman at all.
B. Caps feats seem to be too close to his.
C. Even the first hand-book IIRC listed him at exactly 4 tons and you make the leap to a high of 20.
Either way, I'm not out to conclusively prove Ult. Cap is just as strong or stronger than 616 Spidey. Fact is, the point of this conversation has always been to argue that 616 Spidey is not vastly superior in physical respects. I've made my case, you have your own opinions.
Indeed. As you have your own opinions as well. But I don't see U.Cap haven proven himself in the least. You say he has low showing and not that many. Maybe then you should wait till he has enough that "actually" rival Spiderman.
Because in this thread it has not been shown at all.
