Originally posted by Deja~vu
Funny you should ask. Religious sources.....hahahahahaha 😂
That's not verification. That's the kind of pro-religion folklore I was talking about. Would you actually take such accounts for their word, especially when they exist for nearly every major figure who opposed religion in some form?
Originally posted by DigiMark007
That's not verification. That's the kind of pro-religion folklore I was talking about. Would you actually take such accounts for their word, especially when they exist for nearly every major figure who opposed religion in some form?
Can you think of any in the reverse?
Originally posted by Kapton JACThis is a question that I have been asked more times than I can count... Where did God come from? He couldn't have always been here, so where did he come from? Well lets think about this:
We are constrained by time, everything has a beginning, every thing has an end. But why does God have to be? Remove time from the equation. This is eternity, no beginning and no end, and this is, I believe, where God resides.
I applaud this thread; you -- Kapton JAC -- are definitely thinking "outside the box." However, if I may, I'd like to comment on your latter statement: "This is eternity, no beginning and no end, and this is, I believe, where God resides." First and foremost, I understand the point (you are attempting to make). Regardless, for future reference, "eternity" is not a "realm," as you define God residing. More accurately, God is eternal -- defining His being/nature! And lastly, man is not "constrained by time" -- at least, not in the sense that you voice. God is the Creator of the Cosmos (and all within); it is impossible to human beings to understand/obtain all knowledge of God. This has nothing to do with "time." What my statement boils down to is this: God is the author of truth (not human beings), and God has revealed Himself through His Creation, His Word, and His Son Jesus the Christ -- things that human beings can approach/seek to find resolution. God has also revealed Himself in our hearts -- conscience! But many dare face the music. Not all truth is polite; but is there for all who chose to live for God, and not themselves.
Originally posted by ushomefreeso basically god dictates whats right and whats not and no one can hold him accountable. great now im in the hands of an allpowerful figure whose decisions and morals are contradictory. great existance, ill stick with my own
I applaud this thread; you -- Kapton JAC -- are definitely thinking "outside the box." However, if I may, I'd like to comment on your latter statement: "This is eternity, no beginning and no end, and this is, I believe, where God resides." First and foremost, I understand the point (you are attempting to make). Regardless, for future reference, "eternity" is not a "realm," as you define God residing. More accurately, God is eternal -- defining His being/nature! And lastly, man is not "constrained by time" -- at least, not in the sense that you voice. God is the Creator of the Cosmos (and all within); it is impossible to human beings to understand/obtain all knowledge of God. This has nothing to do with "time." What my statement boils down to is this: God is the author of truth (not human beings), and God has revealed Himself through His Creation, His Word, and His Son Jesus the Christ -- things that human beings can approach/seek to find resolution. God has also revealed Himself in our hearts -- conscience! But many dare face the music. Not all truth is polite; but is there for all who chose to live for God, and not themselves.
Originally posted by chickenlover98
so basically god dictates whats right and whats not and no one can hold him accountable.
Absolutely!
It is imperative to note, that God is the source of all truth, not man. Hence, who are we to pass judgement on God? Where does our authority come from?
Originally posted by chickenlover98
great now im in the hands of an allpowerful figure whose decisions and morals are contradictory.
In what way are God's "decisions and morals" contradictory? Communicate with me, please.
Originally posted by chickenlover98
great existance, ill stick with my own
God did not create man into robots; you are free to make decisions -- those pleasing and un-pleasing to God. But understand, God will not deny His nature on account of you! God is pure and holy; man must obey Him, not vice versa.
Re: Where did God come from?
Originally posted by Kapton JACWhen you presuppose that God could not have always existed, you preemptively exclude the only answer I, as a Christian, can give you. According to the Bible, God's love is from everlasting to everlasting [Psalm 103:17], thus He (as the lover) is likewise eternal.
This is a question that I have been asked more times than I can count... Where did God come from? He couldn't have always been here, so where did he come from?
Originally posted by Kapton JACNow you've got me confused. Are you saying that God IS eternal, or that God cannot be eternal?
Well lets think about this:We are constrained by time, everything has a beginning, every thing has an end. But why does God have to be? Remove time from the equation. This is eternity, no beginning and no end, and this is, I believe, where God resides.
Debate please.
You are correct in noting that God is not constrained by time. Indeed, time is a thing, and all things were created by Him [Colossians 1:16]. But if you are suggesting that eternity is a static "now" -- a forever present -- I would strongly disagree. Every biblical description of the eternal state shows a progression of events.
Re: Where did God come from?
Originally posted by Kapton JAC
This is a question that I have been asked more times than I can count... Where did God come from? He couldn't have always been here, so where did he come from? Well lets think about this:We are constrained by time, everything has a beginning, every thing has an end. But why does God have to be? Remove time from the equation. This is eternity, no beginning and no end, and this is, I believe, where God resides.
Debate please.
Humanity?
Originally posted by ushomefreeif god is perfect in every way, not only is he the perfect truth and good, hes the perfect liar and evil. and what gives him THE RIGHT to be the decider? being the creater doeesnt give you the right to kill or torture what you've created, even you evangelist christians believe and agree with that. abortion is a prime example. same with cloning. creation doesnt mean you control their fate.
Absolutely!It is imperative to note, that God is the source of all truth, not man. Hence, who are we to pass judgement on God? Where does our authority come from?
In what way are God's "decisions and morals" contradictory? Communicate with me, please.
God did not create man into robots; you are free to make decisions -- those pleasing and un-pleasing to God. But understand, God will not deny His nature on account of you! God is pure and holy; man must obey Him, not vice versa.
he's immoral and contradictory. again we come back to the story of job. to prove to the devil that people love him, he kills jobs family, takes all his money, burns his house down and forces him to live on the street until he dies. yep totally fair
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaosthats the problem when you give anyone absolute power. it corrupts, by definition. not that im against corruption, id slaughter some bitchs if i got super powers 😄. but my point is that you cant say that god is always right. how do you justify sick people? or slavery? would god really let people suffer if he loved them?
From a pragmatic standpoint, how exactly would you go about holding God accountable for anything?
why even condone them to hell? he knew they would do wrong, what happened to all is forgiven? thats why its so fake.
god needs to be held accountable just like everyone else.
Re: Re: Where did God come from?
Originally posted by Tim Routbut time does have a beginning. you have no proof except for a book that was written by man, and therefore fallible. it cannot be claimed to be the word of god even if he exists.
When you presuppose that God could not have always existed, you preemptively exclude the only answer I, as a Christian, can give you. According to the Bible, God's love is from everlasting to everlasting [Psalm 103:17], thus He (as the lover) is likewise eternal.Now you've got me confused. Are you saying that God IS eternal, or that God cannot be eternal?
You are correct in noting that God is not constrained by time. Indeed, time is a thing, and all things were created by Him [Colossians 1:16]. But if you are suggesting that eternity is a static "now" -- a forever present -- I would strongly disagree. Every biblical description of the eternal state shows a progression of events.
his love is eternal? i really dont understand how you can condemn someone you love to be tortured brutally for eternity, ya know but thats just a normal viewpoint
Re: Re: Re: Where did God come from?
Originally posted by chickenlover98I have asserted that the Bible's origins are ultimately divine. You have asserted the contrary. Neither assertion is proof of anything other than our stated positions. As you well remember, Chicken, we have long debated the authority and authenticity of the Bible in this forum and I have no interest in dancing that waltz again. It's a waist of time. My response was relevant to the OP and, as I clearly indicated, I am writing from a Christian perspective.
but time does have a beginning. you have no proof except for a book that was written by man, and therefore fallible. it cannot be claimed to be the word of god even if he exists.his love is eternal? i really dont understand how you can condemn someone you love to be tortured brutally for eternity, ya know but thats just a normal viewpoint
As to your second comment: God saves those He loves, and condemns those He hates. No one who has ever received the love of God has ever been thrown into hell.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Can you think of any in the reverse?
You mean religious figures who allegedly had a deathbed de-conversion? Well, I already named the one about Aquinas, which again has no reliable witness, and was likely just set up as a way to attempt to undermine the writings of Aquinas. After briefly falling into a coma-like state, he supposedly told friends around him to burn all his writings because they had no worth....and of course those writings helped establish much of modern-day Christian dogma.
They're so numerous (and unreliable) as to be non-factors in such discussions. If a few are true, we have no way of knowing. Besides, do you know anyone whose religious beliefs would change based on the reactionary decision of a major historical figure? It's a petty debating tactic to begin with, and even if true doesn't amount to a logical rebuttal of any belief.
Originally posted by chithappens
Mind going into more detail?I don't know about this
That's just it. Details don't exist, at least none that I'm aware of. Which is my point. It exists as a folk story, not as historical fact. I had it related to me in a religion class by a professor once (apparently his words about his writings translate roughly to "it is all straw."😉, and have seen it passingly referenced in a textbook as something that was said to have happened, but it wasn't covered at length.
Hmm, I studied Aquinas about 18 months ago and never heard about it.
In literature this happens all the time though. I took Middle English this past semester and there was talk about how certain stuff had been preserved or purposely ignored or tampered. A lot of scribes that stuff is attributed to are found to be given credit falsely.
Nowadays, I'm just skeptical of a lot.
Originally posted by chithappens
Hmm, I studied Aquinas about 18 months ago and never heard about it.In literature this happens all the time though. I took Middle English this past semester and there was talk about how certain stuff had been preserved or purposely ignored or tampered. A lot of scribes that stuff is attributed to are found to be given credit falsely.
Nowadays, I'm just skeptical of a lot.
Right. Dejavu mentioned a Darwin deathbed conversion earlier, which has been propagated through similarly suspect means, and lacks formal evidence. I just used the Aquinas example as one on the other side of the fence that is equally as unfounded. It is doubtless that many such fraudulent accounts exist.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
You mean religious figures who allegedly had a deathbed de-conversion? Well, I already named the one about Aquinas, which again has no reliable witness, and was likely just set up as a way to attempt to undermine the writings of Aquinas. After briefly falling into a coma-like state, he supposedly told friends around him to burn all his writings because they had no worth....and of course those writings helped establish much of modern-day Christian dogma.
Cool. I'd never heard of that. Deathbed conversions aren't unheard of (though as you say ones involving major figures are generally questionable) but loss of faith moments before death has seemed essentially unheard of.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Besides, do you know anyone whose religious beliefs would change based on the reactionary decision of a major historical figure?
Probably the same kind a people that go and buy something because their favorite athlete endorses it. I don't think I personally know anyone like that.