Originally posted by Deja~vu
And I said that your god also has emotions. Emotions, as you have said , have flaws and can cloud judgment. Is your god so emotionally handicapped that It/He cannot discern between the logical and the emotional?
I'm sorry, but are you dense?
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
A stern Father who plays by the rules.Compassion? There is no crime you can commit that God won't forgive. That is compassion.
Originally posted by Deja~vu
Hence humans are more compassionate than this god. If this god is perfect, then this god would by it's own writings according to the man made Bible, surpass the emotions of a mere human with all his humans flaws, yet this god doesn't. This god is inferior to the human father, which it created.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
Surely allowing your emotions to cloud your judgments is a big big flaw?
Read that, and try to understand.
Originally posted by Deja~vu
I believe you are in denial.
I see what Bardock meant now...
Look, you said
God isnt compasionate
I said he is
You said Humans have more compassion because they forgive more
I said that allowing emotions to cloud your judgment is a flaw
Can you not get from that conversation that I clearly believed God had emotions and did not allow them to cloud his judgment?
Originally posted by Deja~vu
And I said that your god also has emotions. Emotions, as you have said , have flaws and can cloud judgment. Is your god so emotionally handicapped that It/He cannot discern between the logical and the emotional?
Thus answering that, and your other questions before you asked them.
Aren't jealousy, hate, love, tenderness emotions that your god has? Your god would subject someone to a torment because they didn't say "I'm sorry, I'll do better." This god is an emotional god and throws it around when it suits him.
"I hate you Israel...I love you.
I'll smite you because you worship others. (keep in mind that is were servants and not the owner of the house."
I'll kill your offspring, even unto the 7th generation that I'll punish them.
I'll damn your generations for years to come." Paraphrased.
Yet, he loves David and Solomon. many wives Solomon had and concubines. Yet he later said that you should only have ONE wife? Your god is fickle.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Punishing someone eternally does, to me, mean that you don't love the person and that you are not very nice and compassionate. But, hey, everyone's a critic.
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who desireith all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Originally posted by TransfinitumBullshit.
In actuality they are punishing themselves. We have free will to sin against God, and by doing so we move away from God's love and compassion and enter into a state of sin that leads to eternal damnation. God wants all men to be saved, as is evident in Timothy 2:4,So, as a direct consequence of free will, God allows us to fall away from His love and slip into sin and as a result, eternal punishment.
He created us. He knew we wouldn't see his "light". He created hell. He damned us.
On top of it, depending on what you believe, he has a "limited time only" clause on salvation.
If the whole believing shit wouldn't be nonsense to begin with I'd be really upset with the dude. He's one of the lowest, most horrible and sadistic fictional characters there is.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Bullshit.He created us. He knew we wouldn't see his "light". He created hell. He damned us.
On top of it, depending on what you believe, he has a "limited time only" clause on salvation.
If the whole believing shit wouldn't be nonsense to begin with I'd be really upset with the dude. He's one of the lowest, most horrible and sadistic fictional characters there is.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
He allowed free will to exist, that is why there is Hell and sin.
Yeah, he's to blame.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
If there was no sin, there would be no completely free choices, for you would not be able to make a choice that would go against God.
He wouldn't have to punish "sin".
Originally posted by Transfinitum
The reason that God allowed the fall in the garden of Eden and all sin following that, is so that humanity could have completely free will.
So? Not thanking him for damning us.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
Because of this free will, we have the ability to commit sin and damn ourselves, by choosing against virtue and God's commandments.
He didn't really reveal his commandnments well. In fact, one could argue he did everything to hide them as well as possible. Particularly from people that seem to have the most "positive" impact on human lives, Scientists for example.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
Take blasphemy for example, you had the free choice to blaspheme God's name, that was your free choice; but as a result, there will be ramifications.
Nah, there won't be. But if there would, he'd be a dick for it. He behaved like an *******, so I called him that. He created me in a way that it was clear I would call him on being an *******. Again, he's to blame.
****, Religious doctrine is such an incredible amount of doublethink...
Originally posted by Bardock42
He wouldn't have to punish "sin".
In fact he would, for heaven to exist, by its very definition as perfection it must be without sin. So there must be a place outside of heaven that all those who reject holiness and God himself go to. It cannot be heaven, or else heaven would cease to be heaven, that is perfection. And so that place is without God and as a result, without holiness or virtue or good. Namely Hell.
Originally posted by Bardock42
He didn't really reveal his commandnments well. In fact, one could argue he did everything to hide them as well as possible. Particularly from people that seem to have the most "positive" impact on human lives, Scientists for example.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Nah, there won't be. But if there would, he'd be a dick for it. He behaved like an *******, so I called him that. He created me in a way that it was clear I would call him on being an *******. Again, he's to blame.
God created you with the ability to rebel against Him. Enjoy your cursing of God's name, just remember God allows you to do it.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
In fact he would, for heaven to exist, by its very definition as perfection it must be without sin. So there must be a place outside of heaven that all those who reject holiness and God himself go to. It cannot be heaven, or else heaven would cease to be heaven, that is perfection. And so that place is without God and as a result, without holiness or virtue or good. Namely Hell.
Wow. You sure are a Christian. Nothing you said follows logically from anything you said before.
Lets just assume that your first sentence is true (even though it isn't necessary in the English language nor in the belief system of many Christians) and "for heaven to exist [...] it must be without sin". Even if that was true there doesn't need to be a place where those reject God have to go to. They could just cease to exist fully for one...or there could also be multiple places for them to go to...one for each sinner. Also, that place doesn't need to be without God, it could be easily with God and not threaten Heaven's status as perfection. Just STFU, your inability to apply logic to your thoughts even though you use terms from it is nauseating.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
God had shown his commandments clearly to the Jews with Moses, and later on to the Church. The ten commandments, the Scriptures, ever heard of them? And throughout centuries scientists have learned more about God's universe. That was the entire purpose of science until very recently: to better understand God's universe and as a result, to better understand God.
He has shown them 4000 years ago to the Jews. He has revisited them 2000 years ago with a lone lunatic of his flesh. Hardly credible. If he loved me, he'd truly give me a chance by making something in front of me float ... for example a pen...that pen could then write "I am God, I exist, believe in me or you are damned" on a wall. I'd still think he's a dick, but he'd have given me a decent chance. A few ass old books full of contradictions, absurdities and cruelty is the opposite of revealing yourself...it is making yourself better hidden to any reasonable person...if the book was at least historically accurate. But anyone that reads parts of that piece of shit and applies scientific standards (proven to work...over and over again) to it will be close to unable to make themselves believe it.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
God created you with the ability to rebel against Him. Enjoy your cursing of God's name, just remember God allows you to do it.
He did not. And if he did he should be man enough to not punish me for his shortcomings.
**** it. Invested way too much time in this shit. But at least it is fun to hand God's ass to his mindless followers.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Wow. You sure are a Christian. Nothing you said follows logically from anything you said before.Lets just assume that your first sentence is true (even though it isn't necessary in the English language nor in the belief system of many Christians) and "for heaven to exist [...] it must be without sin". Even if that was true there doesn't need to be a place where those reject God have to go to. They could just cease to exist fully for one...or there could also be multiple places for them to go to...one for each sinner. Also, that place doesn't need to be without God, it could be easily with God and not threaten Heaven's status as perfection. Just STFU, your inability to apply logic to your thoughts even though you use terms from it is nauseating.
But the fact remains, there must be a place where people who reject God go outside of heaven. Matthew 10:28 talks about hell;
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Originally posted by Bardock42
He has shown them 4000 years ago to the Jews. He has revisited them 2000 years ago with a lone lunatic of his flesh. Hardly credible. If he loved me, he'd truly give me a chance by making something in front of me float ... for example a pen...that pen could then write "I am God, I exist, believe in me or you are damned" on a wall. I'd still think he's a dick, but he'd have given me a decent chance. A few ass old books full of contradictions, absurdities and cruelty is the opposite of revealing yourself...it is making yourself better hidden to any reasonable person...if the book was at least historically accurate. But anyone that reads parts of that piece of shit and applies scientific standards (proven to work...over and over again) to it will be close to unable to make themselves believe it.
There are miracles of God happening all over the world, you just choose to ignore them you bigot. Take the shrine at Lourdes for example, there have been over 60 cases where people were cured from diseases and illnesses that were deemed medically incurable by going to the shrine. The Lourdes Medical Bureau, an organization of doctors based in Lourdes have declared the following cures miraculous: (taken from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau#Jeanne_Fretel)
Jeanne Fretel
Visited Lourdes: 10 May 1948.
Age 31, a student nurse from Rennes, France. Tubercular peritonitis with complications for seven years, extreme emaciation and oscillating fever. Comatose when brought to Lourdes, was given a tiny fragment of the Eucharist and awoke. Reported being "instantly and permanently cured" later that night while lying in her wheelchair beside the spring. Her cure was recognised officially on 11 November 1950.
Brother Léo Schwager
Visited Lourdes: 30 April 1952.
Age 28, from Fribourg, Switzerland. Multiple sclerosis for five years. His cure was recognised on 18 December 1960.
Alice Couteault, born Alice Gourdon
Visited Lourdes: 15 May 1952.
Age 34, from Bouille-Loretz, France. Multiple sclerosis for three years. Her cure was recognised on 16 July 1956.
Marie Bigot
Visited Lourdes: 8 October 1953 and 10 October 1954.
Age 32, from La Richardais, France. Arachnoiditis of posterior fossa (blindness, deafness, hemiplegia). Her cure was recognised on 15 August 1956.
Ginette Nouvel, born Ginette Fabre
Visited Lourdes: 21 September 1954.
Age 26, from Carmaux, France. Budd-Chiari syndrome (supra-hepatic venous thrombosis). Her cure was recognised on 31 May 1963.
And there are many, many more. The fact that you cannot even see or even posit these as possible miracles from God speaks to a parable that Jesus spoke in Luke 16:27-31:
27 “Then he [the unjust man] said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
Originally posted by Bardock42
**** it. Invested way too much time in this shit. But at least it is fun to hand God's ass to his mindless followers.
Originally posted by Transfinitum
racles of God happening all over the world, you just choose to ignore them you bigot. Take the shrine at Lourdes for example, there have been over 60 cases where people were cured from diseases and illnesses that were deemed medically incurable by going to the shrine. The Lourdes Medical Bureau, an organization of doctors based in Lourdes have declared the following cures miraculous: (taken from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau#Jeanne_Fretel)
A small number of doctors directly affiliated with the church wearing pins that state "I Believe" in Latin are not a good gauge of medical science. Furthermore the doctors do not declare the cures miraculous a Bishop does.
Anyway. They supposedly informed of cases at a rate of 35 per year. Of those only an average of four even warrant looking at. A total of twelve are listed as miraculous.
150 years
5250 people that seem like they might possibly be miraculous
600 that are remotely interesting
12 that pass muster with both the score of doctors and a Bishop at the Vatican.
Those are terrible numbers to try using to make a case.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
A small number of doctors directly affiliated with the church wearing pins that state "I Believe" in Latin are not a good gauge of medical science. Furthermore the doctors do not declare the cures miraculous a Bishop does.Anyway. They supposedly informed of cases at a rate of 35 per year. Of those only an average of four even warrant looking at. A total of twelve are listed as miraculous.
150 years
5250 people that seem like they might possibly be miraculous
600 that are remotely interesting
12 that pass muster with both the score of doctors and a Bishop at the Vatican.Those are terrible numbers to try using to make a case.
Even if there were only twelve miraculous cures, those are still miraculous! And the doctors from Lourdes do not have to be a memeber of the Church, or any faith for that matter. Also they are not forced to wear the "I Believe" badge, it is just customary.
Originally posted by Bardock42
He has shown them 4000 years ago to the Jews. He has revisited them 2000 years ago with a lone lunatic of his flesh. Hardly credible. If he loved me, he'd truly give me a chance by making something in front of me float ... for example a pen...that pen could then write "I am God, I exist, believe in me or you are damned" on a wall. I'd still think he's a dick, but he'd have given me a decent chance. A few ass old books full of contradictions, absurdities and cruelty is the opposite of revealing yourself...it is making yourself better hidden to any reasonable person...if the book was at least historically accurate. But anyone that reads parts of that piece of shit and applies scientific standards (proven to work...over and over again) to it will be close to unable to make themselves believe it.
Why so bitter? You always curse, fly off the handle and use disrespectful language when discussing religion.
Why give god an ultimatum? And say he does prove himself to you with your floating pen example, then what, you'll suddenly be humble and an avid believer?
Originally posted by Transfinitum
Even if there were only twelve miraculous cures, those are still miraculous! And the doctors from Lourdes do not have to be a memeber of the Church, or any faith for that matter. Also they are not forced to wear the "I Believe" badge, it is just customary.
Hoax, and faith-healing is a crock...