Superman Vs WWH (Definitive, Official, One and only thread)

Started by Rorschach136 pages
Originally posted by carver9
In a crossover with hulk and superman, superman even say that about the hulk. Its something common in comics, almost every character has been credited with speed.

Crossovers aren't usable, unless their cannon.

Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

Originally posted by Rorschach
Crossovers aren't usable, unless their cannon.

I already know that, I should have typed "even though its non cannon". That was just the first thing that popped up in my head. Well thor has commented a lot on hulks speed, is that better, its cannon.

Originally posted by carver9
I already know that, I should have typed "even though its non cannon". That was just the first thing that popped up in my head. Well thor has commented a lot on hulks speed, is that better, its cannon.

Sure, if Thor’s actually said that. But there’s a difference between faster than one expects you to be and actually being fast. The Hulk is fast for someone his size, and he does appear to have some minor super-speed, but it’s nowhere near as fast someone like Superman. Comparing the Hulk’s speed to Superman’s speed, is like comparing Spider-Man’s speed to the Flash’s speed. There’s just too big of a difference.

Originally posted by Rorschach
Sure, if Thor’s actually said that. But there’s a difference between faster than one expects you to be and actually being fast. The Hulk is fast for someone his size, and he does appear to have some minor super-speed, but it’s nowhere near as fast someone like Superman. Comparing the Hulk’s speed to Superman’s speed, is like comparing Spider-Man’s speed to the Flash’s speed. There’s just too big of a difference.

I understand that part but the only thing that superman said about doomsday is that he was fast, he didnt say how fast just that he was fast. People base booster gold comment on doomsday speed, he might would have said that same thing about spiderman if he blitzed him. For doomsday to be so fast he sure as hell was getting thrown around by maxima until superman arrived. I agree, doomsday does have speed but the things to thing about is how many people have superman complimented on there speed.

I agree that superman is faster then hulk but I can also see hulk going blow for blow with superman. If you say other wise I would need to ask this question again, do you think that mimic would walk all over hulk since mimic does fly 93000 miles per sec?

Originally posted by Rorschach
Sure, if Thor’s actually said that. But there’s a difference between faster than one expects you to be and actually being fast. The Hulk is fast for someone his size, and he does appear to have some minor super-speed, but it’s nowhere near as fast someone like Superman. Comparing the Hulk’s speed to Superman’s speed, is like comparing Spider-Man’s speed to the Flash’s speed. There’s just too big of a difference.

The issue is really not If Superman is faster than the Hulk. No Hulk has ever moved at running speeds Superman has been clocked at (vs Flash for instance). And for obvious reasons (Hulk can't Fly) Superman is capable of traveling at FTL speed - beyond what Hulk is capable of.

But where is really comes down to is a few things no one has been capable of proving:

1. Superman is very vulnerable to Hulk level assaults: Dispite the denial of Superman fans, he taken severe beatings by the likes of Mongul, Grundy, Titus, Graak and obviously Doomsday. All of which are easily under Hulk's strength level both in history and feat-wise. Not only that, but Hulk's powerset is constantly GROWING strength.
And we are actually talking about WWH here...who in world breaker mode was ripping up the seaboard with a footstep (not even trying) - this is still beyond anything any of Superman's opponents were ever capable of.

There is no doubt WWH is more powerful than those guys....and even if you dont think so, you can not deny that he would surpass them due to dynamic strength over the course of a fight.

2. Hulk always responds well to speed attacks. He generally either directly counters speed assaults, or takes them full on and then counters. He has taken the best shots in comic from the likes of Abomination Gladiator, Juggernaut, Sentry, Thor, the Silver Surfer, and Thanos ....and none have even so much have been able to effectively harm him whatsoever.

And again thats Savage Hulk.....WWH is a different animal.

This may be due to his enhanced reflexes or enhanced senses but a pissed Hulk has stunned opponents who consider him a slug time and time again. Speed Blitz vs Hulk = fail. He responds very well to speed attacks and counters with nothing but growing levels of devastation.

3. Superman has a poor record of avoiding a toe-to-toe fight, which I attribute to his fighting style. If he can't take enemies down with flight, HV and freeze breath...he generally resorts to going toe to toe. There is simply no great battle speed advantage really shown when it come to dealing the kind of blows needed to effect Hulk types.

If he is truly faster, he should never get hit ever by the likes of Mongul and Grundy. But it happens all the time so yes speed wont be a factor with Hulk either.

Superman will eventually have go blow for blow with World War Hulk and try to hold his own. This will be his undoing. World War Hulk who is already on his level would only get stronger, angrier, and with his growing endurance will eventually take Superman down.

Originally posted by carver9
I understand that part but the only thing that superman said about doomsday is that he was fast, he didnt say how fast just that he was fast. People base booster gold comment on doomsday speed, he might would have said that same thing about spiderman if he blitzed him.

It was said that he was faster than the Flash, who at the time could move at super-sonic speeds. Guy Gardner also commented on his speed.

Originally posted by carver9
For doomsday to be so fast he sure as hell was getting thrown around by maxima until superman arrived.

She punched him twice...I don't exactly see that as getting 'thrown around', but to each his own, I guess.

And even she asked how Doomsday could move so fast. Also, Maxima too possesses a degree of super-speed.

Originally posted by carver9
I agree, doomsday does have speed but the things to thing about is how many people have superman complimented on there speed.

Not as many as you would like to believe. Sometimes Superman is surprised at how fast his opponent is, but he doesn't often claim people who aren't fast, are fast

Originally posted by carver9
I agree that superman is faster then hulk but I can also see hulk going blow for blow with superman.

I never argued that the Hulk was considerably weaker than Superman. I even gave the majority to WWH.

Originally posted by carver9
do you think that mimic would walk all over hulk since mimic does fly 93000 miles per sec?

You're completely missing the point. People claim that Superman will use his speed against the Hulk, because Superman has used his speed during battle on several occasions. People aren't going to claim Mimic will do the same to the Hulk, unless he too has been shown to use speed during combat.

Originally posted by horrorwolf
1. Superman is very vulnerable to Hulk level assaults

I never said otherwise.

If you read my first post, you'd see that I gave the majority to the Hulk.

Originally posted by Rorschach
I never said otherwise.

If you read my first post, you'd see that I gave the majority to the Hulk.

I understand - that was unrelated to your comment Rorschach. My point to you was just that speed doesn't really come into play often with Superman and powerful opponents - if we go by purely by track records with the enemies I mentioned.

Originally posted by Rorschach
It was said that he was faster than the Flash, who at the time could move at super-sonic speeds. Guy Gardner also commented on his speed.

She punched him twice...I don't exactly see that as getting 'thrown around', but to each his own, I guess.

And even she asked how Doomsday could move so fast. Also, Maxima too possesses a degree of super-speed.

Not as many as you would like to believe. Sometimes Superman is surprised at how fast his opponent is, but he doesn't often claim people who aren't fast, are fast

I never argued that the Hulk was considerably weaker than Superman. I even gave the majority to WWH.

You're completely missing the point. People claim that Superman will use his speed against the Hulk, because Superman has used his speed during battle on several occasions. People aren't going to claim Mimic will do the same to the Hulk, unless he too has been shown to use speed during combat.

I can post numerous and numerous of scans where mimic used his speed during combat but I can also post scans where he has fought street levelers and failed. With mimic short career, I might can post as many combat speed with him then you could with superman post crisis era. Even though mimic blitzed hyperion his other showings have him trading blows with captain america. Even though mimic blitzed some robots, his other showings have him going h2h with namor. Thats why I think things should go by average showings. Even though mimic is very fast, his average showings have him fighting like a brick. Even though superman possess is very fast, his average showings have him fighting like a brick. Even though quick silver is fast he is shown fighting like a speedster on average. Even though flash is fast he is also shown fighting like a speedster on average.

Originally posted by Rorschach
Not as many as you would like to believe. Sometimes Superman is surprised at how fast his opponent is, but he doesn't often claim people who aren't fast, are fast

I think crossovers are crap, but in the Superman/Savage Hulk fight, Superman claimed that, not only did he consider Hulk Fast, but far Stronger than anyone he has ever fought at that point.

(He came to this conclusion after one of Hulk punches knocked him into orbit.)

Originally posted by carver9
I can post numerous and numerous of scans where mimic used his speed during combat

Good, go ahead and post those.

Originally posted by carver9
but I can also post scans where he has fought street levelers and failed.

Because he wasn't using his speed in those battles?

Originally posted by carver9
With mimic short career, I might can post as many combat speed with him then you could with superman post crisis era.

Well, all this time you've been claiming that you could count with your fingers how many times Superman has used his speed during combat, so I'm not expecting to see more than ten instances.

Originally posted by carver9
Even though mimic blitzed hyperion his other showings have him trading blows with captain america. Even though mimic blitzed some robots, his other showings have him going h2h with namor.

So he used his speed against Hyperion, and some robots but not against Captain America, and Namor.

Originally posted by carver9
Thats why I think things should go by average showings.

No, you're simply trying to ignore the full capacity rule.

Originally posted by horrorwolf
I think crossovers are crap, but in the Superman/Savage Hulk fight, Superman claimed that, not only did he consider Hulk Fast, but far Stronger than anyone he has ever fought at that point.

(He came to this conclusion after one of Hulk punches knocked him into orbit.)

I know, I've read the comic. The fight was inconclusive. Neither one of them seemed to be able put the other down for good.

Originally posted by Eman5805
Seriously, Superman fights people who can't go nearly as fast as him and gets hit in the face anyway. He trades punches, it's how Sups fights. I'd give this an even split at 5/10.

Sups has the mobility edge, but the Hulk doesn't know the meaning of "holding back". He's going all out from each and every punch that pisses him off even more, which makes him go even harder.

And also, what does BFR stand for? Sorry for the n00b question...

True, but WWH will only get stronger and stronger without exhausting.

5/10 is being very generous to Superman.

Originally posted by Rorschach
Good, go ahead and post those.

Because he wasn't using his speed in those battles?

Well, all this time you've been claiming that you could count with your fingers how many times Superman has used his speed during combat, so I'm not expecting to see more than ten instances.

So he used his speed against Hyperion, and some robots but not against Captain America, and Namor.

No, you're simply trying to ignore the full capacity rule.

http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles13139mw.jpg

http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles15087ud.jpg
http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles15090yz.jpg

http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles15162eh.jpg

http://img477.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles37059dl.jpg

http://img376.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles61129rx.jpg

http://img430.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles64091yd.jpg
http://img430.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles64108ul.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=083uu.jpg

You asked for blitz with mimic, well here ya go.

Supes gets creamed

Originally posted by Rorschach
I know, I've read the comic. The fight was inconclusive. Neither one of them seemed to be able put the other down for good.

You do know that that was pre crisis superman that hulk was fighting right.

Originally posted by carver9
http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles13139mw.jpg

http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles15087ud.jpg
http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles15090yz.jpg

http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles15162eh.jpg

http://img477.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles37059dl.jpg

http://img376.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles61129rx.jpg

http://img430.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles64091yd.jpg
http://img430.imageshack.us/my.php?image=exiles64108ul.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=083uu.jpg

You asked for blitz with mimic, well here ya go.

It'd be nice if most of those were in English. And I guess I got what I was expecting, less than ten instances of Mimic using his speed during combat.

Originally posted by carver9
You do know that that was pre crisis superman that hulk was fighting right.

Different crossovers.

Pre-Crisis Superman fought Hulk in the 2nd Superman Vs. Spider-Man crossover.

Originally posted by Rorschach
It'd be nice if most of those were in English. And I guess I got what I was expecting, less than ten instances of Mimic using his speed during combat.

Different crossovers.

Pre-Crisis Superman fought Hulk in the 2nd Superman Vs. Spider-Man crossover.

I didnt know that you was serious about 10, well let me go get some more for you.

Originally posted by carver9
I didnt know that you was serious about 10, well let me go get some more for you.

No need. I was just referring to when you said you could post Mimic using his speed as many times that I could post Superman using his speed during combat, which isn't going to happen.

Originally posted by horrorwolf
Actually people always seem to want to attribute this to Superman's strength, but thats not the case.

Superman's greatest "strength" feats always involve his ability to create inertia via flight to generate momentum and force. Several comic writers have commented on this.....which is how he dispite his small frame is able to push massive objects.

Its not raw Strength like fans would have you belive but really momentum/flight + strength.

Which is exactly why you can't find one feat of Superman that surpasses Hulk's that dont involved flight generated assistance.

hence why i gave him a mach 10 run up..