Forgiveness is omnipresent, as God. Accept or refuse God's presence. Accept and refuse forgiveness. They are all choices we must take throughout our lives.
You can ask forgiveness for what you did wrong. It is normal, we are sinners. And God, if you are honest, will forgive you, no matter what you did.
This is the holy forgiveness we humans should tend to, for if we never will reach it, there is stil a way to make the world a better place through it, thus be closer to God and his will.
Sorry for my late response, I would have liked to be there in the heat of the debate.
Originally posted by Grand_Moff_Gav
I think he means the ability to forgive- no matter how bad you have been wronged- will help you become a stronger person and deal with any grief/anxieties much more effectively than other people.If honed this ability would allow you to stop hating other people and thus love.
Love through forgiveness.
I know what he was saying. The problem is; he didn't.
How do you get to the point of forgiving? You don't do it by keeping points. Like you did me wrong, so, I will forgive you. *puts one mark in the air with finger* You find forgiveness when you realize that you are responsible for all things in your life. I don't care how you get there. You can call it a divine presents that has saved you, or you could call it enlightenment, it is all the same in the end. Faith is the only true magic in this world, but it does not matter if you are a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist. I was once a Christian, and I know what it feels like to have the spirit move through me. Now as a Buddhist, I have that same feeling when I chant.
This Holy Spirit is ether real and in all religions, or it is just a product of our mind and body.
Originally posted by Mandos
Forgiveness is omnipresent, as God. Accept or refuse God's presence. Accept and refuse forgiveness. They are all choices we must take throughout our lives.You can ask forgiveness for what you did wrong. It is normal, we are sinners. And God, if you are honest, will forgive you, no matter what you did.
This is the holy forgiveness we humans should tend to, for if we never will reach it, there is stil a way to make the world a better place through it, thus be closer to God and his will.
Sorry for my late response, I would have liked to be there in the heat of the debate.
There are a few things you must first believe before what you are saying even makes sense.
1. That humans are sinful, or in other words, evil.
2. That there is a judgment day and a hell that we will be cast into if we don't measure up.
3. There is a god that has the power to save us from this fate.
1. People are not good or evil. It is the things that we think, say and do that lead us on a good or evil path.
2. There is not judgment day; there is only today, and today you are judged by the judge that knows all the things you have done. That judge is you.
3. There is no hell other then the one we make. Therefore, to think we are doomed is a dilution.
Hey Shaky, remember when you said, "I have read the bible from the beginning to the end; have you? What about all the good things that we humans have done?" in response to Jesus dying to forgive the sins of man? I'm curious, if I do something nice for you like buy you flowers to make you feel better and then sock you in the face and bust your nose, I don't need to be forgiven because I did something nice right? As long as you don't sin ALL the time, you don't need forgiveness? Or has your wisdom been lost on me?
Of course humans have done many good things. That's why God felt we deserved to have our sins forgiven in the first place. That's why God sent his only son to die for our sins.
okay blah blah forgiveness is a choice ..u forgive and not judge for shaky bustin your nose...lol...then maybe as it says do unto others etc...you will be forgiven for whosever nose u busted...lol...no need to nit pick OR judge...if shaky read the bible from beginning to end then I bet $100 bucks(if I had it) that he forgot half of it at least ...I read revelations 3 times I dont remember a third of it...lol....heck not even a 1/4 of it...lol
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There are a few things you must first believe before what you are saying even makes sense.1. That humans are sinful, or in other words, evil.
2. That there is a judgment day and a hell that we will be cast into if we don't measure up.
3. There is a god that has the power to save us from this fate.1. People are not good or evil. It is the things that we think, say and do that lead us on a good or evil path.
2. There is not judgment day; there is only today, and today you are judged by the judge that knows all the things you have done. That judge is you.
3. There is no hell other then the one we make. Therefore, to think we are doomed is a dilution.
It's not because humans are sinful that they are necessarly evil.
Your second and third point only applies for those who beleive in christianity and God. But what about all the other religions, and bouddhism? Forgiveness is omnipresent there too, so it sets out of our human understanding.
On you second 1 to 3 points.
Humans are both good and evil, for they are sinners. You can do good in bad stuff as you can do bad in good stuff.
Your second point refers again to a question; do you beleive? Wether it is like in the biblical scriptures or not, there will be a time when the human race will be destroyed, by angel or time.
For your third point, if you feel bad about something, that means that you haven't done everythign in your power to fix it as best you can. Ask forgiveness, and work hard on your errors, and you will have a happy life. That is what God intends on us all, for those who beleive in him.
Originally posted by FormerMarine07
Hey Shaky, remember when you said, "I have read the bible from the beginning to the end; have you? What about all the good things that we humans have done?" in response to Jesus dying to forgive the sins of man? I'm curious, if I do something nice for you like buy you flowers to make you feel better and then sock you in the face and bust your nose, I don't need to be forgiven because I did something nice right? As long as you don't sin ALL the time, you don't need forgiveness? Or has your wisdom been lost on me?Of course humans have done many good things. That's why God felt we deserved to have our sins forgiven in the first place. That's why God sent his only son to die for our sins.
So you think it is silly to say that humans are basically good because of all the good things we have done? It is no more silly they to say that we are evil because of all the evil we have done.
Forgiveness will not change your Karma. If you broke my nose, you will spend some time in jail, and forgiveness from me will not change that. It is not necessary for me to forgive you because it will not change the fact that I will not trust you again (if you did brake my nose).
Originally posted by Mandos
It's not because humans are sinful that they are necessarly evil.
The idea of sinful requires a god to be sinful too. Evil is an action, like the Holocaust was evil because of all the people and families that were killed, not because of bad intentions.
Originally posted by Mandos
Your second and third point only applies for those who beleive in christianity and God. But what about all the other religions, and bouddhism? Forgiveness is omnipresent there too, so it sets out of our human understanding.
I don’t know about all other religions, but forgiveness is irrelevant in Buddhism. I am responsible for all things in my life, so why would I need to forgive you. However, because I am responsible for all things in my life, I have no reason to hold a grudge against you.
Originally posted by Mandos
On you second 1 to 3 points.Humans are both good and evil, for they are sinners. You can do good in bad stuff as you can do bad in good stuff.
Life is not that simple. A mountain lion runs down and kills a dear, is that good, evil or sinful?
Originally posted by Mandos
Your second point refers again to a question; do you beleive? Wether it is like in the biblical scriptures or not, there will be a time when the human race will be destroyed, by angel or time.
😐
Originally posted by Mandos
For your third point, if you feel bad about something, that means that you haven't done everythign in your power to fix it as best you can. Ask forgiveness, and work hard on your errors, and you will have a happy life. That is what God intends on us all, for those who beleive in him.
If you let go of attachments and take responsibility for all things in your life, then you will not have these bad feelings, and forgiveness would be irrelevant.
Originally posted by Jack Daniels
okay blah blah forgiveness is a choice ..u forgive and not judge for shaky bustin your nose...lol...then maybe as it says do unto others etc...you will be forgiven for whosever nose u busted...lol...no need to nit pick OR judge...if shaky read the bible from beginning to end then I bet $100 bucks(if I had it) that he forgot half of it at least ...I read revelations 3 times I dont remember a third of it...lol....heck not even a 1/4 of it...lol
It was a long time ago when I read the bible, so yes, I have forgotten a lot of what I read. However, by reading the bible from cover to cover, I have a general idea of what the bible is all about. BTW it was reading all of the bible that started making me question what I was being taught. Most people don't realize that what they have been told in church is not in the bible as a whole.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The idea of sinful requires a god to be sinful too. Evil is an action, like the Holocaust was evil because of all the people and families that were killed, not because of bad intentions.I don’t know about all other religions, but forgiveness is irrelevant in Buddhism. I am responsible for all things in my life, so why would I need to forgive you. However, because I am responsible for all things in my life, I have no reason to hold a grudge against you.
Life is not that simple. A mountain lion runs down and kills a dear, is that good, evil or sinful?
If you let go of attachments and take responsibility for all things in your life, then you will not have these bad feelings, and forgiveness would be irrelevant.
The biblical God is not sinful. He allows sins to happen for us to learn. Even for the Holocaust, which was an horrible act, good things still derived from it.
Forgiveness is not irrelevant in buddhism. Their way of life is to detach themselves from the circle of faith they call Karmah, and to join their Athma as one with Brahma, the ultimate source of energy. One cannot achieve that is you do not forgive, for you'll unwillingly be attached to earthly things and sentiment.
Life is as simple as you want it to be. If you want it complicated, then it is. Life itself is irrelevant. I think you're talking more about life's challenges? In that case, yes some may prove to be complicated. However, everything can be solved, depending on your approach. Approaching with forgiveness and kindness usually brings good results.
Responsability and forgiveness cannot be combined, too many situations are possible to enumerate them all here. You must be responsible for all actions you undertake in your life. However, if such an action brings negative events that hurt people, willingly or unwillingly, you take the responsability to make up for it. That is a sort of sin reparation, if you will. And God forgives you if you truly mean it.
If you are the wrong doer, you can't forgive yourself for what you've done. But others can forgive you. If they don't, you can forgive them that they didn't forgive you, and return to a peaceful mind.
Originally posted by Mandos
The biblical God is not sinful. He allows sins to happen for us to learn. Even for the Holocaust, which was an horrible act, good things still derived from it.
That is if the biblical god is even real. Back to the chair analogy, from the side of the chair it may seem there is an arm in front of the chair, and you are telling me that you have to go around the chair to sit. However, from the front there is no arm in the way.
Originally posted by Mandos
Forgiveness is not irrelevant in buddhism. Their way of life is to detach themselves from the circle of faith they call Karmah, and to join their Athma as one with Brahma, the ultimate source of energy. One cannot achieve that is you do not forgive, for you'll unwillingly be attached to earthly things and sentiment.
Your knowledge of Buddhism is very limited and you are confusing Buddhism with Hinduism.
Here is a web site to Nichiren Buddhism:
http://www.sgi-usa.org/buddhism/buddhismofnichirendaishonin.php
Take a moment and review, please.
Originally posted by Mandos
Life is as simple as you want it to be. If you want it complicated, then it is. Life itself is irrelevant. I think you're talking more about life's challenges? In that case, yes some may prove to be complicated. However, everything can be solved, depending on your approach. Approaching with forgiveness and kindness usually brings good results.
However, forgiveness could lead you down a path repeated suffering.
Originally posted by Mandos
Responsability and forgiveness cannot be combined, too many situations are possible to enumerate them all here. You must be responsible for all actions you undertake in your life. However, if such an action brings negative events that hurt people, willingly or unwillingly, you take the responsability to make up for it. That is a sort of sin reparation, if you will. And God forgives you if you truly mean it.
If you are the wrong doer, you can't forgive yourself for what you've done. But others can forgive you. If they don't, you can forgive them that they didn't forgive you, and return to a peaceful mind.
However, other people can’t change your Karma by forgiving you. They can only change their own Karma by forgiving you. Forgiveness is an action (cause) that has an effect, and that effect changes the person who created the cause. For the effect to affect anyone else, they have to decide to create a cause in response to the effect. Therefore, if someone insults you, it is you who decides to get angry. The other person did not make you angry. Sense the other person did not make you angry (you decided to do that in response to what they said) there is no reason to forgive; no offence has been done to you by someone else. You made a decision… that is all that took place.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don’t know about all other religions, but forgiveness is irrelevant in Buddhism. I am responsible for all things in my life, so why would I need to forgive you. However, because I am responsible for all things in my life, I have no reason to hold a grudge against you.Life is not that simple. A mountain lion runs down and kills a dear, is that good, evil or sinful?
😐
If you let go of attachments and take responsibility for all things in your life, then you will not have these bad feelings, and forgiveness would be irrelevant.
First, for those of us who believe in sin, sin doesn't really apply to animals. They're animals.
Next, I think your statements beg the question: do you believe there is no such thing as an innocent victim? If we are responsible for everything that happens in our lives, is it a girl's fault if she is raped? Did she do something in her past that justifies this kind of "punishment" or "justice?"
I'll be the first to admit I haven't studied Buddhism in great length, but my school system made it a point that we should all be somewhat familiar with the religions of the world and learned about the 8-fold path and some of the main points of Buddhism. But it was kind of broken down into "people suffer because they bring it upon themselves." Is that what you believe? Is every poor person poor because they deserve to be? Is every person who has tragically lost a loved one just getting their comeuppance? Surely you can't mean to say that individuals are responsible for every single aspect of their lives.
Originally posted by willofthewisp
Next, I think your statements beg the question: do you believe there is no such thing as an innocent victim? If we are responsible for everything that happens in our lives, is it a girl's fault if she is raped? Did she do something in her past that justifies this kind of "punishment" or "justice?"
Maybe Hitler wasn't so bad. The Jews just had done a lot of bad things and the universe chose him to give them their comeuppens. 😱
forgiveness is HAAAAAARD!
well sumtimes, when sum1 has hurt you bad enough. but by nod forgiving, men usually, on the whole, bring bad karma into this world{or create bad karma, however u wanna look at it}. much of the human inflicted suffering in this world, is based on cycles of pain. as they say, hate begets hate, pain begets pain and suffering begets suffering. sure most people would feal it JUSTIFIED or RIGHTEOUS to do harm to sum1 who has done you harm. but if you think about it, harming others isnt an instinct that comes naturally to most men, it is learnt, through being hurt and living around hurt. sure, you cud do the same to the person and not feal any worse, but the thing is, that wont give the peroson any motivation to be better would, it, or those around them who are affected by his suffering, and this in turn would chrn out more suffering and negetivity and soon sum1 else, probably like you, would be victimised and cotinue the circle of violence/negetivity/bad karma. i think to stop it, the only way, is really, to forgive people, it might hurt, and it might pain and it might require a lot of courage, and you may end up with no real reward or satisfaction, but if you can care about unseen others enough, its reason enough to do it, so that others can learn forgiveness from it and stop hurting and being hurt. ofcourse in many individual situations it might seem like this is foolish or useless, and perhaps that is true in some sense, but overall, when eternity faces you both in pats and future, i think its really is the only thing that works. its also probably the place where jesus's teaching of turning and offering the other cheek to the attacker comes from. {which seems quite unpractical to many people, but it has its wisdom nonetheless, atleast to me}
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Your knowledge of Buddhism is very limited and you are confusing Buddhism with Hinduism.
Excuse me, I have switched the two. My error.
But don't come with hasty conclusions regarding my knowledge when you have seen so few of it. I took classes on my free time about the religions of the world, and I probably know more about those two religions as you. A simple error of context does not erase all that knowledge.
I ask you to stop posting denigrated comments on me, while the issue is forgiveness and God. Is it too much asking? For we may arrive at something with the God issue, but about me, well, you do not know anything, and will probably think I am a lier if I said I was one of the top knowledgable young adults in my country's province. I am already having some hard time here because my knowledge of christianity is limited compared to the other religions I've studied. I am presently reading the Bible and talking to my priests to correct the situation.
Your agressive tone when replying is not welcome with me, and I ask yet again that you leave my knowledge and sense of philosophy and analysis out of this debate, or I will have to retract talking to you. It would be a shame for both of us, for me not being able to continue such a fascinating subject, and for you, who clearly has no idea who he is talking to and what I could eventually bring on the table.
Originally posted by willofthewisp
First, for those of us who believe in sin, sin doesn't really apply to animals. They're animals.
Humans are animals.
Originally posted by willofthewisp
Next, I think your statements beg the question: do you believe there is no such thing as an innocent victim? If we are responsible for everything that happens in our lives, is it a girl's fault if she is raped? Did she do something in her past that justifies this kind of "punishment" or "justice?"
What other people do, like rape, is an evil that does not fall on the victim. That evil belongs to the person who did the evil act. When I said “innocent victim”, I was meaning “victimization”; were a person wallows in being a victim. Sorry about confusing the issue.
Originally posted by willofthewisp
I'll be the first to admit I haven't studied Buddhism in great length, but my school system made it a point that we should all be somewhat familiar with the religions of the world and learned about the 8-fold path and some of the main points of Buddhism. But it was kind of broken down into "people suffer because they bring it upon themselves." Is that what you believe? Is every poor person poor because they deserve to be? Is every person who has tragically lost a loved one just getting their comeuppance? Surely you can't mean to say that individuals are responsible for every single aspect of their lives.
Being responsible for your life is different from deserving mistreatment. It’s not a point of blame, but just a fact. If a person dies in an airplane crash, it is not their responsibility for the airplane crash, but that person is responsible for getting on the airplane. I’m talking about empowerment, not victimization. If you take responsibility for all things in your life, then you will have power over your life. I was raised poor, and I know why my parents did not have anything in their lives. It was choices they made early in their lives that led to their poverty. My mother was a beautiful professional singer who gave up her promising career to raise a family. She knew that riches are not always measured by money. If you think that all rich people are happy and poor people are sad and victims, then I feel sorry for you.