Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What other people do, like rape, is an evil that does not fall on the victim. That evil belongs to the person who did the evil act. When I said “innocent victim”, I was meaning “victimization”; were a person wallows in being a victim. Sorry about confusing the issue.
But in a Karmic system there must be a reason for her being raped. Unless balance isn't an issue, in which case the whole system falls apart.
^but you have to admit shaky, we are not all blank states with the ability to think and form reactions about things however we wish. we have some basic intinctual and physical things hardwired very much into us, which make us who we are. take the example of a loved one dying, to most this is a tragerdy and a point of great suffering. yet from a very simplistic buddhist point of view, {i say simplistic because i do not pretend to know the comlications} the person "chooses" to let the loss of a loved one bother them as they allow the reaction of pain and suffering to be correlated with the fact of death that has affected them. and yet, many a times, i think, that isnt a fair judgement, seeing that the person didnt CHOOSE so much to be sad{although i am sure there are quite a few who do andhold onto it very well} as it was based in their very existance from birth, and even if they try to simply give up the sadness, the NATURAL order of things doesnt allow it easily and forces them{i.e. their own nature which they havent created out of thin, objective air} to continue feeling sad about the event.
Getting a little presumptuous, aren't we, shaky? I don't assume anyone is happy or unhappy. And I am all for stepping up and claiming responsibility when one actually is accountable for something. If I screw up at my job and don't process someone's retirement, I am responsible for any suffering or inconvenience they experience in that regard. If a person packing someone's parachute does it wrong and the person dies, it's the packer's fault. However, the retiree is not responsible for errors, coming into the retirement office and submitting all the necessary paperwork and doing everything asked of him/her.
In response to your mother, no one is praising or condemning her decision. Yes. She is responsible for the consequences of that decision, but as the child, are you? That was my point. Is every person that is poor responsible for being poor? It's not calling your mother or any particular person poor. Do the reverse. Is every rich person responsible for their being rich? I just don't think every single aspect of someone's life is within their control. The majority of it is and I don't believe in fate, but there are several factors beyond someone's responsibility or control.
Originally posted by willofthewisp
Getting a little presumptuous, aren't we, shaky? I don't assume anyone is happy or unhappy. And I am all for stepping up and claiming responsibility when one actually is accountable for something. If I screw up at my job and don't process someone's retirement, I am responsible for any suffering or inconvenience they experience in that regard. If a person packing someone's parachute does it wrong and the person dies, it's the packer's fault. However, the retiree is not responsible for errors, coming into the retirement office and submitting all the necessary paperwork and doing everything asked of him/her.In response to your mother, no one is praising or condemning her decision. Yes. She is responsible for the consequences of that decision, but as the child, are you? That was my point. Is every person that is poor responsible for being poor? It's not calling your mother or any particular person poor. Do the reverse. Is every rich person responsible for their being rich? I just don't think every single aspect of someone's life is within their control. The majority of it is and I don't believe in fate, but there are several factors beyond someone's responsibility or control.
That is true, and I don't think there really is a logical explanation for it. It's mystifying how those contradictions interact. Is there a religious answer to such questionning?
Originally posted by Mandos
Excuse me, I have switched the two. My error.But don't come with hasty conclusions regarding my knowledge when you have seen so few of it. I took classes on my free time about the religions of the world, and I probably know more about those two religions as you. A simple error of context does not erase all that knowledge.
Did you read from the link? Most people do not understand or ever heard of Nichiren Buddhism.
Originally posted by Mandos
I ask you to stop posting denigrated comments on me, while the issue is forgiveness and God.
My commits on your knowledge had nothing to do with your intelligence. If I told you something about your religion that was more reflective of another religion, you would feel that I was not knowledgeable about your religion. I would not take that as an insult or attack if you told me that. Intent is everything.
Originally posted by Mandos
Is it too much asking? For we may arrive at something with the God issue, but about me, well, you do not know anything, and will probably think I am a lier if I said I was one of the top knowledgable young adults in my country's province. I am already having some hard time here because my knowledge of christianity is limited compared to the other religions I've studied. I am presently reading the Bible and talking to my priests to correct the situation.
I only know what you write. I will try to make my intentions more clear and try to be more sensitive on your issues.
Originally posted by Mandos
Your agressive tone when replying is not welcome with me, and I ask yet again that you leave my knowledge and sense of philosophy and analysis out of this debate, or I will have to retract talking to you. It would be a shame for both of us, for me not being able to continue such a fascinating subject, and for you, who clearly has no idea who he is talking to and what I could eventually bring on the table.
You remind me of the man who ran out of gas, and had to walk to a gas station with a gas can. As he walked, he begins to think to himself “I bet the guy at the gas station will not be happy about filling by gas can”. As he went on, he worked himself up to a furry. When he got to the gas station, as soon as the gas attendant said hi, he blew up, and yelled at the guy. You made your statement and before I could respond, in the same post, you got even more upset. You did that to yourself.
Originally posted by willofthewisp
Getting a little presumptuous, aren't we, shaky? I don't assume anyone is happy or unhappy. And I am all for stepping up and claiming responsibility when one actually is accountable for something. If I screw up at my job and don't process someone's retirement, I am responsible for any suffering or inconvenience they experience in that regard. If a person packing someone's parachute does it wrong and the person dies, it's the packer's fault. However, the retiree is not responsible for errors, coming into the retirement office and submitting all the necessary paperwork and doing everything asked of him/her.In response to your mother, no one is praising or condemning her decision. Yes. She is responsible for the consequences of that decision, but as the child, are you? That was my point. Is every person that is poor responsible for being poor? It's not calling your mother or any particular person poor. Do the reverse. Is every rich person responsible for their being rich? I just don't think every single aspect of someone's life is within their control. The majority of it is and I don't believe in fate, but there are several factors beyond someone's responsibility or control.
So, is responsibility only a negative thing?
Not at all. I love my responsibilities. But they are my responsibilities. My son is a baby right now. I am responsible for his health and development. If, however, he doesn't sit up or crawl at the same age most other babies do, that's not his responsibility, nor is it mine, not if I did everything I could. I learned to talk about the same time most babies do. My brother didn't talk until he was almost 2 and he is of normal intelligence. Does that mean my parents made sure I was talked to a lot and knew my words and just neglected to do that with my brother? No. That's just how things are.
There is a huge psychological argument that has gone on for years as to whether our personalities are a result of nature (how we are born) or or nurture (how we are brought up and the decisions we make). You and I are in agreement that people are responsible for themselves and attitude is everything. However, there are certain elements to a person that are beyond their control, the nature part. Take the study of adopted children and IQ tests. Children that were adopted as babies and raised in a normal family atmosphere were administered an IQ test, along with their adoptive parents and birth parents. Even though the adoptive parents raised the children and provided them good schooling, the children scored closer to the IQs of their birth parents. What is interesting is that their adoptive parents had given them lots of skills and had done wonders with some of them, but there were just certain elements where more credit was due to nature than nurture. You can't dismiss one or the other.
For right now, Mandos, I'm finding you a lot of fun.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Did you read from the link? Most people do not understand or ever heard of Nichiren Buddhism.My commits on your knowledge had nothing to do with your intelligence. If I told you something about your religion that was more reflective of another religion, you would feel that I was not knowledgeable about your religion. I would not take that as an insult or attack if you told me that. Intent is everything.
I only know what you write. I will try to make my intentions more clear and try to be more sensitive on your issues.
You remind me of the man who ran out of gas, and had to walk to a gas station with a gas can. As he walked, he begins to think to himself “I bet the guy at the gas station will not be happy about filling by gas can”. As he went on, he worked himself up to a furry. When he got to the gas station, as soon as the gas attendant said hi, he blew up, and yelled at the guy. You made your statement and before I could respond, in the same post, you got even more upset. You did that to yourself.
Apologies accepted 😛 , and I'll lay down my temper with you 🙄
Originally posted by willofthewisp
For right now, Mandos, I'm finding you a lot of fun.
Why thank you, I appreciate it 😉.
It's just, my strengh is in diplomacy, and verbal discussions. Not only is my first langage french, I am trying to write as precise as possible in english. So excuse me everyone if sometimes all is not clear. I don't think my english is that bad, but still it's not my french.
So willofthewisp, when do you finish work, we could go grab a cup of coffee? 😆
Originally posted by willofthewisp
Not at all. I love my responsibilities. But they are my responsibilities. My son is a baby right now. I am responsible for his health and development. If, however, he doesn't sit up or crawl at the same age most other babies do, that's not his responsibility, nor is it mine, not if I did everything I could. I learned to talk about the same time most babies do. My brother didn't talk until he was almost 2 and he is of normal intelligence. Does that mean my parents made sure I was talked to a lot and knew my words and just neglected to do that with my brother? No. That's just how things are.There is a huge psychological argument that has gone on for years as to whether our personalities are a result of nature (how we are born) or or nurture (how we are brought up and the decisions we make). You and I are in agreement that people are responsible for themselves and attitude is everything. However, there are certain elements to a person that are beyond their control, the nature part. Take the study of adopted children and IQ tests. Children that were adopted as babies and raised in a normal family atmosphere were administered an IQ test, along with their adoptive parents and birth parents. Even though the adoptive parents raised the children and provided them good schooling, the children scored closer to the IQs of their birth parents. What is interesting is that their adoptive parents had given them lots of skills and had done wonders with some of them, but there were just certain elements where more credit was due to nature than nurture. You can't dismiss one or the other.
For right now, Mandos, I'm finding you a lot of fun.
However, I am only talking about responsibility as it relates to forgiveness. What you have gone into is where my belief in reincarnation comes into play. In effect all the nature things in our life are a direct reflection of our Karma from past lives. But that is how I believe.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, I am only talking about responsibility as it relates to forgiveness. What you have gone into is where my belief in reincarnation comes into play. In effect all the nature things in our life are a direct reflection of our Karma from past lives. But that is how I believe.
Now we're mixing two different religions (well, buddhism ain't a religion, but you get my drift.)
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But in a Karmic system there must be a reason for her being raped. Unless balance isn't an issue, in which case the whole system falls apart.
I don't know. Rape is bad, but there have been great people born into this world because of rape. The only thing we can say is we don't know.
sumtimes it feals like karma is about making peace with the fact that things are random. this i assume can be partly done by seeing the fact that things only seem random to our conciousness from the perceptive limitations we have. kinda like accepting responsibility for damaging sum1 else's car when your car hit them{making you the LEGAL culprit} even if you were in a situation where it wasnt your FAULT as there was no way your own SENSES could have been aware of it for sumthing coincidental blocked your view. still, i may be way off lol, i never really know. {basically, taking full responsibility for your physical being even if your perceptual being cud not keep up fully with the physical being}
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't know. Rape is bad, but there have been great people born into this world because of rape. The only thing we can say is we don't know.
But not every rape results in a great person and rape is usually devastating for the victim who doesn't always get recompense.