Forgiveness

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^but you have to admit shaky, we are not all blank states with the ability to think and form reactions about things however we wish. we have some basic intinctual and physical things hardwired very much into us, which make us who we are. take the example of a loved one dying, to most this is a tragerdy and a point of great suffering. yet from a very simplistic buddhist point of view, {i say simplistic because i do not pretend to know the comlications} the person "chooses" to let the loss of a loved one bother them as they allow the reaction of pain and suffering to be correlated with the fact of death that has affected them. and yet, many a times, i think, that isnt a fair judgement, seeing that the person didnt CHOOSE so much to be sad{although i am sure there are quite a few who do andhold onto it very well} as it was based in their very existance from birth, and even if they try to simply give up the sadness, the NATURAL order of things doesnt allow it easily and forces them{i.e. their own nature which they havent created out of thin, objective air} to continue feeling sad about the event.

However, that is only true if suffering is always bad. Sometimes it is a good thing to suffer. Buddhism sheds light on where the suffering is coming from. This knowledge that suffering comes from attachments can be used as a way to free your self from suffering, but sometimes suffering is the right thing to do.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But not every rape results in a great person and rape is usually devastating for the victim who doesn't always get recompense.

Yes, life is not fair. I do not have an answer to that.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
sumtimes it feals like karma is about making peace with the fact that things are random. this i assume can be partly done by seeing the fact that things only seem random to our conciousness from the perceptive limitations we have. kinda like accepting responsibility for damaging sum1 else's car when your car hit them{making you the LEGAL culprit} even if you were in a situation where it wasnt your FAULT as there was no way your own SENSES could have been aware of it for sumthing coincidental blocked your view. still, i may be way off lol, i never really know. {basically, taking full responsibility for your physical being even if your perceptual being cud not keep up fully with the physical being}

I have a thread on Karma. Take a moment and review. That will answer your question better then I could.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=447678

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, that is only true if suffering is always bad. Sometimes it is a good thing to suffer. Buddhism sheds light on where the suffering is coming from. This knowledge that suffering comes from attachments can be used as a way to free your self from suffering, but sometimes suffering is the right thing to do.

so attachement isnt always bad in buddhism?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
so attachement isnt always bad in buddhism?

That is correct. Delusion is what is bad.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is correct. Delusion is what is bad.

Oh. That's something that slipped over my mind. You're right.

And life is a delusion, illusion.......not what you think it may be..

It depends how you think.

Originally posted by Mandos
It depends how you think.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Or if... 😆

😂

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, that is only true if suffering is always bad. Sometimes it is a good thing to suffer. Buddhism sheds light on where the suffering is coming from. This knowledge that suffering comes from attachments can be used as a way to free your self from suffering, but sometimes suffering is the right thing to do.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Buddhism teach that by freeing one's self of attachment and negativity, one can free him/herself from suffering? Maybe good things can come of suffering, but the suffering itself is always bad. When people look back at their experiences to determine whether or not they were positive or negative, they look at what they learned from the suffering. So it seems that it is the aftermath of suffering (the thinking/reflecting stage) rather than the suffering that is good. And some suffering is never good because you might not learn anything from it. Going back to the rape victim, is she supposed to learn a lesson from being raped?

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Buddhism teach that by freeing one's self of attachment and negativity, one can free him/herself from suffering? Maybe good things can come of suffering, but the suffering itself is always bad. When people look back at their experiences to determine whether or not they were positive or negative, they look at what they learned from the suffering. So it seems that it is the aftermath of suffering (the thinking/reflecting stage) rather than the suffering that is good. And some suffering is never good because you might not learn anything from it. Going back to the rape victim, is she supposed to learn a lesson from being raped?

Buddhism says that attachments lead to suffering. Therefore, all suffering in your life is caused by your attachments. That means you are responsible for the suffering in your life, because the suffering is not caused by the outside event, but by your attachments to the event. If a woman, who is completely detached from all things in life, were to be raped, she then would not suffer. But who wants to live like a vegetable? 😆 Most people who learn a little about Buddhism stop at the attachment thing and never realize that there is more to it.

Life is filled with happiness and suffering. If you remove all attachments, you will not have any suffering, but you will also not have any happiness. There is no value in that kind of life. What Buddha is saying is that the suffering that is in our lives is cased by "us" and therefore, is under our control. It is up to "us" to choice what we suffer about.

This has nothing to do with lessons to be learned.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Buddhism says that attachments lead to suffering. Therefore, all suffering in your life is caused by your attachments. That means you are responsible for the suffering in your life, because the suffering is not caused by the outside event, but by your attachments to the event. If a woman, who is completely detached from all things in life, were to be raped, she then would not suffer. But who wants to live like a vegetable? 😆 Most people who learn a little about Buddhism stop at the attachment thing and never realize that there is more to it.

Life is filled with happiness and suffering. If you remove all attachments, you will not have any suffering, but you will also not have any happiness. There is no value in that kind of life. What Buddha is saying is that the suffering that is in our lives is cased by "us" and therefore, is under our control. It is up to "us" to choice what we suffer about.

This has nothing to do with lessons to be learned.

With that, I say Bouddhamen!

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Life is filled with happiness and suffering. If you remove all attachments, you will not have any suffering, but you will also not have any happiness. There is no value in that kind of life. What Buddha is saying is that the suffering that is in our lives is cased by "us" and therefore, is under our control. It is up to "us" to choice what we suffer about.

So then, in the case of the rape victim, she was either raped because she had it coming or she is only suffering because she chooses to suffer?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So then, in the case of the rape victim, she was either raped because she had it coming or she is only suffering because she chooses to suffer?

No, what he means is that, by detatching herself from what was out of her control, the so-called rape event, she can cease the pain. Of course, the act is horrible, but everyone has challenges in life. Some are losing a friend, others losing a baby, some losing a part of their bodies, others being raped. It's irrelevant. If you can successfully detach yourself from such things, which is hard, you could attain a certain peace of mind.

That is what I think.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So then, in the case of the rape victim, she was either raped because she had it coming or she is only suffering because she chooses to suffer?

She is suffering because at a very primitive level she has chosen to suffer. That is independent of right or wrong. In the case of a rape, the rape is wrong and evil. The woman, naturally suffers, but if she needed to suffer less, to have a better life, she can choose to not suffer. This is not easy and she might have to go through some kind of ritual to get her self to the point of choosing to not suffer, but it is her choice.

Originally posted by Mandos
No, what he means is that, by detatching herself from what was out of her control, the so-called rape event, she can cease the pain. Of course, the act is horrible, but everyone has challenges in life. Some are losing a friend, others losing a baby, some losing a part of their bodies, others being raped. It's irrelevant. If you can successfully detach yourself from such things, which is hard, you could attain a certain peace of mind.

That is what I think.

👆

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
👆

Ha, but it's an historical moment. You and I agreeing on something. Champagne? 😄

Originally posted by Mandos
Ha, but it's an historical moment. You and I agreeing on something. Champagne? 😄

wine

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Buddhism says that attachments lead to suffering. Therefore, all suffering in your life is caused by your attachments. That means you are responsible for the suffering in your life, because the suffering is not caused by the outside event, but by your attachments to the event. If a woman, who is completely detached from all things in life, were to be raped, she then would not suffer. But who wants to live like a vegetable? 😆 Most people who learn a little about Buddhism stop at the attachment thing and never realize that there is more to it.

Life is filled with happiness and suffering. If you remove all attachments, you will not have any suffering, but you will also not have any happiness. There is no value in that kind of life. What Buddha is saying is that the suffering that is in our lives is cased by "us" and therefore, is under our control. It is up to "us" to choice what we suffer about.

This has nothing to do with lessons to be learned.

So if I'm understanding what you're saying, the ideal would be to be free of attachments, but to experience happiness, one must find some sort of balance? Please admit this is a very complex belief system that many people in the Western world find simply alien to their way of thinking, and I'm not saying that at all to be insulting. I'm trying to wrap my head around it and make sense of it.