Originally posted by jinzinWait wait. You do know that this isn't a gauntlet right? This is a gang-bang, for all intents and purposes? Meaning, all those combatants attack Wolverine at the same time... So, if you would indulge me, please tell me if Wolverine wins scenario 1 again. And then let me know if you switched Elektra and Wolverine in scenario 1, would you have Elektra winning against all those opponents?
100 martial arts means nothing, according to Marvel, Wolverine knows EVERY martial art that's documented in the MU and some that aren't. He's a level seven.And fighting KK efficiently? So what?
One fight he was fighting a KK who was disoriented, AMNESIC and STILL nailed Batman 3 times before Batman landed one solid offensive. By the end of that fight Batman was bloodied, his suit was tore the f*** up, he had a hernia and lost his utility belt. KK wasn't even trying and all he had was one black eye.The other fight went a little better, but relaunch KK isn't even that impressive to begin with, he's definitely no pre crisis.
So he can see weaknesses at times like Karnak, so what? Wolverine still has similar showings disarming Azreal without effort, disarming Ogun without effort, briefly stalemating Gamora, and he absolutely manhandled Shang Chi, who's already esimated by many to be superior to Bats in sheer skill.
Shit, Shang's stated to be a master of every martial art, and beat a handful of men who knew every martial art at the same time and he still got owned by Logan.
Past that, are you using Wolverine's Marvel Database level as proof that Wolverine has mastered all known martial arts? Because, that's not proof even according to the Marvel Handbook editors... since they have Punisher at Level 7 as well, since he is proficient at all styles of combat, armed and unarmed. If that is not what you are relying on, do you have a scan that helps prove Wolverine has mastered all known martial arts? On that same note, do you have a scan that Shang Chi has mastered every martial art? I am honestly curious.
^ Sorry, between pressure points, crushing tendons, gauging out eyes, knocking the wind out of him and being able to grab all his limbs and put him into a MMA virtual crab hold... with the talent present here? I don't think Wolverine makes it out of scenario 1 at all.
I don't think even Elektra and Wolverine switching places with the stipulations makes it out of the scenario either. Do you think so?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Wait wait. You do know that this isn't a gauntlet right? This is a gang-bang, for all intents and purposes? Meaning, all those combatants attack Wolverine at the same time... So, if you would indulge me, please tell me if Wolverine wins scenario 1 again. And then let me know if you switched Elektra and Wolverine in scenario 1, would you have Elektra winning against all those opponents?
I'll tell you again then... By cutting and stabbing the living crap out of them. 😐
No I wouldn't give Elektra better odds than Logan in that fight, but Elektra isn't as strong as Wolverine, doesn't have the same level of stamina, the ability to increase her stats with a berserker rage, a healing factor strong enough to help take 6 hits from World War Hulk.
What the hell kind of example is that? Elektra would have to win with sheer, speed, skill, and TP because she can't afford to take damage in this kind of fight, Wolverine can.. He can afford to take A LOT of damage at that.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0I'm referencing the level 7 to give some scope on the versatility of Wolverine's fighting capabilities, one would assume that to be the case when you have a 100plus year old warrior who's been all over the world, and a trained killer/agent/soldier in most of those places.
Past that, are you using Wolverine's Marvel Database level as proof that Wolverine has mastered all known martial arts? Because, that's not proof even according to the Marvel Handbook editors... since they have Punisher at Level 7 as well, since he is proficient at all styles of combat, armed and unarmed.
As for Punisher? Where did it come from? some handbooks/level charts etc go up to 9 I've seen a couple go past 10. Punisher's never been at a level of 100% proffeciency from what I've seen, if he's listed as such at some point I'm unaware of it. And if he is, he hasn't been listed as such consistently, Wolverine has. Shit, in overpower Wolverine ws rated higher than Cap.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0He's a 100plus year old warrior. He's tought a ton of members of the X-Men X-Force, Gen X etc everything from Judo to Krav Magra. He's constantly stated as being a ridiculously skilled fighter. He's impressed Cap. X thought he was THEE best. X's soldiers state that he's using all sorts of MA in their fight with him. He's been all over the wolrd as an agent/killer/warrior for damn near every major organization. He was tought by a thousands year old demon ancient styles that were thought to be myths. He was tought by that demon for years, the same being who gave Kitty Pride enough training in 2 weeks to equal a lifetime and made her good enough to be quite a threat to Logan in h2h. He's a constantly reincarnating warrior spirit. Even if you feel the Weapon X book has no validity (I do), there's still the fact that he was stated as much in Netsuke, referenced as such in his fight with Ba'al and shown as much and then implied to reinforce the ideal during Loebs own run.
If that is not what you are relying on, do you have a scan that helps prove Wolverine has mastered all known martial arts? On that same note, do you have a scan that Shang Chi has mastered every martial art? I am honestly curious.
Top that off with the fact that Marvel has consistently given Wolverine 1005 fighting profeciency since he's made appearances in handbooks and all I can say is to further assume that he isn't as skilled as people he's beaten like Cap, like Shang Chi (both of whom have outright stated to know every martial art known to man) is to be wearing blinders for no apparent reason.
Jinzin, well... so you think Elektra can beat up Wolverine straight up... but would do poorer in this fight... hmm... interesting... Doesn't really quite make sense to me. I don't see how stripping them of their weapons suddenly changes everything around between the two. I've seen Wolverine taken down by street-levelers before barehanded. And here, he's got 6 of the best. I'm also assuming Green Arrow = Connor Hawke. You do know how good Connor Hawke is, right?
And Punisher has been listed at 7 for a while now. And if you read the editor's notes, you'll see that level 7 does not mean mastery of all known martial arts. It simply means proficiency at all styles of combat. Including gunplay. That's why Iron Fist is a 6 and Punisher is a 7 for like fours years now. Wolverine being a 7 does not equate to him being a master of all martial arts. If you're going to use the Marvel Database and Handbooks, then you have to follow their rules and logic.
And you still have not shown any evidence that Shang Chi has mastered every martial art.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0Pressure points are really the ONLY thing that they could do to him.
^ Sorry, between pressure points, crushing tendons, gauging out eyes, knocking the wind out of him and being able to grab all his limbs and put him into a MMA virtual crab hold... with the talent present here? I don't think Wolverine makes it out of scenario 1 at all.I don't think even Elektra and Wolverine switching places with the stipulations makes it out of the scenario either. Do you think so?
They're not stronger than him, so it'd have to be a combined effort to wrestle him down to the ground and put him in submission holds. Even then you're talking about a guy who's 2 to 3 times stronger than most of the people here.
Adamantium bones mean breaking maneuvars won't work. Crushed tendons, if Wolverine's adrenaline gets kicked up and he gets revved up during this fight, which he almost certainly would given that he knows he's up against at least one telepath, crushed tendons are little more than an annoyance to Wolverine coming into this fight at peak capacity. The guy got up 4 seconds after having his larnyx crushed, AFTER a fight with Death's Head II, and that was all before Fatal Attractions.
The fact of the matter is that striking by enlarge simply will not work against a guy who can take absurd amounts of punishment from Hulk when he gets going. Presure points are the only thing they'd have going for them without weapons but could they land enough fast enough to take Logan down? Not if he's taking this fight seriously, and to be honest, Wolverine doesn't even need much skill to keep them at bay, spinning in circles while wildly flailing his arms about would suffice. 😐
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
jinzin, well... so you think Elektra can beat up Wolverine straight up... but would do poorer in this fight... hmm... interesting...
Uh, no. I've never said that. What I've said is that in their confrontations Elektra's always looked superior in SKILL and at least a bit faster perhaps.
But in a straight fight that Logan would win simply because he can easily outlast her and attack her openings while she tries to strike/kill him.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And Punisher has been listed at 7 for a while now. And if you read the editor's notes, you'll see that level 7 does not mean mastery of all known martial arts. It simply means proficiency at all styles of combat. Including gunplay. That's why Iron Fist is a and Punisher is a 7. Wolverine being a 7 does nto equate to him being a master of all martial arts. If you're going to use the Marvel Database and Handbooks, then you have to follow their rules and logic.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0He handled four guys who boasted as much. 😬
And you still have not shown any evidence that Shang Chi has mastered every martial art.
Originally posted by jinzinCmon now. Spiderwoman managed to stab him with his own claws. Cap was about to do the same til Logan was smart enough to retract them. And then what happened? I never argued that they'd try to break his bones. All the Marvel combatants would know he is laced with adamantium and they'd tell their allies they could never break his bones.
Pressure points are really the ONLY thing that they could do to him.They're not stronger than him, so it'd have to be a combined effort to wrestle him down to the ground and put him in submission holds. Even then you're talking about a guy who's 2 to 3 times stronger than most of the people here.
Adamantium bones mean breaking maneuvars won't work. Crushed tendons, if Wolverine's adrenaline gets kicked up and he gets revved up during this fight, which he almost certainly would given that he knows he's up against at least one telepath, crushed tendons are little more than an annoyance to Wolverine coming into this fight at peak capacity. The guy got up 4 seconds after having his larnyx crushed, AFTER a fight with Death's Head II, and that was all before Fatal Attractions.
The fact of the matter is that striking by enlarge simply will not work against a guy who can take absurd amounts of punishment from Hulk when he gets going. Presure points are the only thing they'd have going for them without weapons but could they land enough fast enough to take Logan down? Not if he's taking this fight seriously, and to be honest, Wolverine doesn't even need much skill to keep them at bay, spinning in circles while wildly flailing his arms about would suffice. 😐
Flailing around in circles is enough to take out Elektra, Shiva, Connor Hawke, Shang Chi, Bronze Tiger AND Bullseye (also laced with adamantium)? I think you overestimate Wolverine a bit too much in scenario 1.
Originally posted by jinzinJinzin, these are snippets from another thread. All from a single post. Dude... between Elektra and Wolverine, you seesaw like two kids on cocaine and steroids. I have no idea anymore who you think would beat the other anymore. I'll just have to bump some Elektra vs Wolverine thread to find out or make one of my own.
Wolverine's harsh on himself. That's nothing new. Maybe you should pick up more of his books. 😕
The same Elektra that's put him down before, and kicked his ass accross an apartment rooftop....
Logan taking down people that are not comparable to Elektra is not relivent to this debate...Again.. Not even the fight I was reffering too.. But Elektra there clearly has an advantage. Wolverine's on the ground sais in his shoulders (again) and about to be pummbled with a lead pipe... Yeah she definitely wasn't winning that one. 🙄
... The fight where she left him for dead is seperate from the EOTS fight...
And that fight took place well before his second mutation...
OMG.. So when she does pwn elites like Wolverine, TM, DD, and Razorfist it doesn't count.
And again, it wasn't what I meant. I'm not backpeddling it just wasn't what I meant, not that there isn't any evidence to support that she couldn't mind rape Batman like you're thinking, I was just giving him the benefit of the doubt that she might not be able to.
Read Elektra: Assassin, she literally forces her mind into other people and makes them act as her vessal. No joke...
And there's nothing wrong with his HF in his EOTS fight with Elektra in terms of the writing. He was hamburger meat shortly before that fight. His HF would clearly not be fast acting.
It IS PIS when you have a character downed by something and then ignore that to abuse him later.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cmon now. Spiderwoman managed to stab him with his own claws. Cap was about to do the same til Logan was smart enough to retract them. And then what happened? I never argued that they'd try to break his bones. All the Marvel combatants would know he is laced with adamantium and they'd tell their allies they could never break his bones.Flailing around in circles is enough to take out Elektra, Shiva, Connor Hawke, Shang Chi, Bronze Tiger AND Bullseye (also laced with adamantium)? I think you overestimate Wolverine a bit too much in scenario 1.
Spiderwomman is WAYYYY stronger than EVERYONE in this thread including Wolverine. She can lift ten tons minimum. And that was against a slightly surprised, cautious, and fatigued Wolverine who'd been on the run for 6 hours before the Avengers even showed up and who she venom blasted before doing that. How is that even slightly, no, REMOTELY comparable to this thread?
Cap, still stronger than Wolverine's opponents in this thread, was facing against a Wolverine who was also fatigued out and eating his own flesh for substanance, and Cap did that while Wolverine dropped his guard turned semi-away from Cap and tried to explain to him the situation of what was taking place, Cap practically cheap shotted him there. Again, not relivent HERE.
Not at all, but the claws are sharp enough to make mince meat of anyone who gets touched by them. There's no room for error on the teams part even light cuts will draw a decent amount of blood, damaging to stamina and the psyche.
On the other hand, as Srank pointed out, Wolverine can take LOADS of punishment from them and shrug it off. They need pressure points to take him down. They're not going to do that for the majority.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Sorry, between pressure points, crushing tendons, gauging out eyes, knocking the wind out of him and being able to grab all his limbs and put him into a MMA virtual crab hold... with the talent present here? I don't think Wolverine makes it out of scenario 1 at all.I don't think even Elektra and Wolverine switching places with the stipulations makes it out of the scenario either. Do you think so?
No? Hulk lifts thousands of tons. Hulk could punch you in the big toe, and the force of the punch would still rupture every organ in your body and turn your insides into paste. Pressure points work by applying pressure to a certain vulnerable area, the force of the Hulk's blows apply pressure every where, including pressure points. A single blow from the Hulk is more damage than the combined forces of these martial artist can replicated; pressure points or not.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Jinzin, these are snippets from another thread. All from a single post. Dude... between Elektra and Wolverine, you seesaw like two kids on cocaine and steroids. I have no idea anymore who you think would beat the other anymore. I'll just have to bump some Elektra vs Wolverine thread to find out or make one of my own.
WOW... way to ignore context there buddy... 😐
We were talking about historical references, to which my opponent didn't think Elektra had a clear advantage over Wolverine in EOTS, she clearly did. Is it that big of a deal for a Wolverine defender? Not really, Wolverine was mind controlled, distracted when the fight started and kept alive by life support minutes earlier. It's still an impressive feat for Elektra vs. an at least decently skilled/fast opponent (I've stated Wolverine to be around mid to low level 2nd tier during this confrontation before as well), it's still an advantage. It's not a pinacle representation for Elektra vs. Logan, but you can't logically deny she was winning.
When Elektra stabbed Logan through the heart and left him for dead? Again, shows Elektra's superior skill/speed. Is it that big of a deal for a Wolverine supporter? Not really, the fight presumably took place shortly after Weapon X, Wolverine's head was still a complete mess, a long long time before Wolverine's HF and skill increased in recent years.
In Nemesis, she was again kicking his ass, but all Nemesis does is prove what I've been saying all along, while Elektra may be a bit more skilled, all Logan needs is to take the punishment long enough to land one good hit. The same with Wolverine 103.
But IN THIS THREAD, UNDER THESE CONDITIONS, Elektra doesn't even have her sais in the first fight, there goes her best shot at being able to significantly damage Logan, pretty big difference from previous fights.
Wolverine, as far as Im aware, is not immune to nerve holds. Enough people on the team can expertly apply them that they could throw Bullseye in to be slaughtered and then all make a play for one. A lot of them could stalemate Wolverine for a time, so all at once I do believe would be overkill.
Scenario 2 the team should win the majority, I'd say 8/10 even
Originally posted by srankmissingninSorry. But I explained my theory as to why Wolverine's body isn't reduced to paste when he gets smacked by Hulk a long time ago:
No? Hulk lifts thousands of tons. Hulk could punch you in the big toe, and the force of the punch would still rupture every organ in your body and turn your insides into paste. Pressure points work by applying pressure to a certain vulnerable area, the force of the Hulk's blows apply pressure every where, including pressure points. A single blow from the Hulk is more damage than the combined forces of these martial artist can replicated; pressure points or not.
Fact is, Wolverine has been knocked out by blunt force that was categorically less than Hulk. Far less. And knock out isn't the only way they can win. Pressure points, simple incapacitation where he can't move, etc.
Originally posted by jinzinJinzin, fine. Elektra without her sais... but with the help of Batman, Bronze Tiger, Connor Hawke, Shang Chi AND Shiva gets her ass kicked. Ok. I see the logic there. Totally:
But IN THIS THREAD, UNDER THESE CONDITIONS, Elektra doesn't even have her sais in the first fight, there goes her best shot at being able to significantly damage Logan, pretty big difference from previous fights.
Having sais >>>>>> Batman + Bronze Tiger + Connor Hawke + Shang Chi + Shiva and Elektra who can actually punch through a guy's chest anyway...
I'm not out here to change your opinion, that's impossible. I'm only here to point out the gaping holes in your logic to everyone else.
🙄
Originally posted by srankmissingninno it wouldn't
No? Hulk lifts thousands of tons. Hulk could punch you in the big toe, and the force of the punch would still rupture every organ in your body and turn your insides into paste.
basically imagine having a pillar slam into your big toe, your big toe is gone, but no organ of yours would be affected in the slightest
stop making up sh1t