Sabretooth vs Cyclops

Originally posted by Starscream M
so you're actually gonna sit there and tell me that logan hasn't been changed dramatically the past decade? unbelievable

the logan of the past would not have survived a nuke blast, or falling into molten steel and walking away

the logan of the past was not an agent of god and did not battle angels to come back to life

etc etc

Logan in the past healed from a single cell.................

actually one of Logans first runs he was shown to be the hand of god.............

so as ussual you are wrong.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Do you have a valid reason I should answer this strawman?

Do you have a reason why he should prove a negative statement?

You have to prove that he could've survived.

That's why I asked you to prove a galaxy destroying blast could kill him, you can't.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
you prove onces again to be ignorant individual.

Logan in the past healed from a single cell.................

actually one of Logans first runs he was shown to be the hand of god.............

so as ussual you are wrong.

Are you talking about when he healed from a a drop of blood?

Originally posted by Mindset
Are you talking about when he healed from a a drop of blood?

and though he had an out side power sources it was still his healing factor.

Originally posted by Mindset
Do you have a reason why he should prove a negative statement?

Originally posted by Mindset
You have to prove that he could've survived.

Originally posted by Mindset
That's why I asked you to prove a galaxy destroying blast could kill him.

Interesting.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Its not a negtive statement. He asserted that the old woverine would have been killed by things he specifically named that he has at present shown to be able to survive.

Heh, burden of proof fallacy there buddy. I'm not the one to make claims about Wolverine's survival for given scenerios. Remember?

So you're going to defned bad logic (Strawman) with more bad logic? (Burden of proof fallacy)

Interesting.

Oh, I thought saying he couldn't survive something was a negative statement.

But you are making the claim that he could survive the given situations, are you not?

Originally posted by Battlehammer
yes.

and though he had an out side power sources it was still his healing factor.

I'm not seeing the validity.

Unless you mean to say that he has shown to have incredible feats throughout his career, w/ or w/o outside circumstances.

Originally posted by Mindset
Oh, I thought saying he couldn't survive something was a negative statement.

Originally posted by Mindset
But you are making the claim that he could survive the given situations, are you not?

Couldn't survive turns into would kill. Could survive turns into would not kill.

Since he's claiming that there WAS a change the essence at the very core leaves the burden f proof on him.

Funny how that works isn't it?

Now then have you given up that strawman? Or shall we continue to press for why you're being, at the core, illogical?

Originally posted by Mindset
I'm not seeing the validity.

Unless you mean to say that he has shown to have incredible feats throughout his career, w/ or w/o outside circumstances.

not to mention in the 90's he was healing fram some crazy shit.

oh and he survied a god blast I believe while on asguard and when he was poisoned.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Hmm.. denying the antecident much?

See that's the funny thing about the burden of proof, alot of negatives can be turned into positives.

Couldn't survive turns into would kill. Could survive turns into would not kill.

Since he's claiming that there WAS a change the essence at the very core leaves the burden f proof on him.

Funny how that works isn't it?

Now then have you given up that strawman? Or shall we continue to press for why you're being, at the core, illogical?

I don't see what I'm denying, he said Logan would not survive etc. I took that as a negative statement.

I believe that point he was making was that Logan's healing factor has increased, which in my opinion and many others, including the writers, it did. Now I don't recall what situations he named, but in that claim I don't see where he went wrong. Maybe I am mistaken and he should prove himself, but if you are saying he could in fact survive etc. do you not need to back up your statement with anything?

Originally posted by Mindset
I don't see what I'm denying,

Originally posted by Mindset
he said Logan would not survive etc. I took that as a negative statement.

Originally posted by Mindset
I believe that point he was making was that Logan's healing factor has increased, which in my opinion and many others, including the writers, it did.

And again, I'll point you to "People liked the character when they didn't understand who and what he was."

He's always been duking it out with bricks and been just fine. Gint size X-Men number one. Collossus hits him with all his might (stated on panel) and all it did was make wolverine angry (also stated on panel)

Now what do you suppose the ~70 ton lifting strength hit would do to the human body?

Oh yeah it really increased... let me tell you.

Originally posted by Mindset
Now I don't recall what situations he named,[b/]

Originally posted by Mindset
[B] but in that claim I don't see where he went wrong.

Originally posted by Mindset
Maybe I am mistaken and he should prove himself, but if you are saying he could in fact survive etc. do you not need to back up your statement with anything?

"The world does not exist as a sphere. prove me wrong" Oh look at that.. an outlandish claim framed as a negative. guess I don't need to prove my stance since I phrased it as a negative.

Originally posted by Creshosk
lol, of course you don't.

Which is cleverly disguised so he doesn't have to prove his claims?

That's funny, isn't this the guy that claimed that it'd decresed recently?

And again, I'll point you to "People liked the character when they didn't understand who and what he was."

He's always been duking it out with bricks and been just fine. Gint size X-Men number one. Collossus hits him with all his might (stated on panel) and all it did was make wolverine angry (also stated on panel)

Now what do you suppose the ~70 ton lifting strength hit would do to the human body?

Oh yeah it really increased... let me tell you.

He said that a nuke would kill wolverine and he said that falling in molten steel would kill wolverine.

Of course you don't. Oh look at that, I subtly linked to thoughts.

I'm not saying that he can. I'm challaenging him to prove his claims. I'm saying that his claim is false. It is then up to him to prove that his claims are true.

"The world does not exist as a sphere. prove me wrong" Oh look at that.. an outlandish claim framed as a negative. guess I don't need to prove my stance since I phrased it as a negative.

Maybe I'm giving him less credit than he deserves, I didn't assume he'd make his statement a negative in an attempt to pass the burden of proof.

Are you saying I said it recently decreased? Well in the past few months it has, but before that it was at levels above what it had been in the past(for the most part).

I don't really need a lesson on his healing factor, I'm well aware of what he can handle.

So do you think that he could survive being reduced to bone? And he walked out of the lava only as bone right...?

Again, maybe I've fallen for PZ trick, didn't think he'd make a statement into a negative in order to 'entrap' you.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
How could wolverine or creed possible dodge Cyclops' optic blast. Unless they can move so fast that youcan't even see them it should not be possible. Cyclops' optic blast is aimed just by him looking at you, there isn't a sight, or a secondary optic targeting system, it's just the dude looking at you. How can you dodge someone looking at you unless you posses the abilities such as those possessed by Nightcrawler or Northstar?

Originally posted by Mindset
Maybe I'm giving him less credit than he deserves, I didn't assume he'd make his statement a negative in an attempt to pass the burden of proof.

Originally posted by Mindset
Are you saying I said it recently decreased?

Originally posted by Mindset
Well in the past few months it has, but before that it was at levels above what it had been in the past(for the most part).

Originally posted by Mindset
I don't really need a lesson on his healing factor, I'm well aware of what he can handle.

Originally posted by Mindset
So do you think that he could survive being reduced to bone?

Originally posted by Mindset
And he walked out of the lava only as bone right...?

Again, maybe I've fallen for PZ trick, didn't think he'd make a statement into a negative in order to 'entrap' you.

Originally posted by Starscream M
so you're actually gonna sit there and tell me that logan hasn't been changed dramatically the past decade? unbelievable

the logan of the past would not have survived a nuke blast, or falling into molten steel and walking away

the logan of the past was not an agent of god and did not battle angels to come back to life

etc etc

The hand of God arc was in the first 20 some issues of the original Wolverine comic.

Wolverine regened from a drop of blood back in the 80's.

Was walking out of a reactor meltdown in the original Weapon X storyline.

and,
Instead of angels he battled Mesopotamian demon gods... 😕

Originally posted by jinzin
with a straight beam there's still room for error and both characters can do that for distances up to 50 feet.

Originally posted by jinzin
😐

The hand of God arc was in the first 20 some issues of the original Wolverine comic.

Wolverine regened from a drop of blood back in the 80's.

Was walking out of a reactor meltdown in the original Weapon X storyline.

and,
Instead of angels he battled Mesopotamian demon gods... 😕

This is why Jinzin pwns.

Originally posted by Creshosk
You're the one trying to pass the burden of proof.

No, Master Buce did.

You mean like recently regrowing his heart, which he'd have to do when fighting those multi ton bricks he was always fighting?

Are you aware of what he handled in the past?

He's done so on a number of occasions. Stupid you say? No stupider than any other character doing it.. hell no stupider than any other character doing impossible things.

You're the one trying to pass off the burden of proof. Its starscream here, yeah I realize they're practically interchangeable these days but still.

I wasn't trying to pass the burden, without just cause, I thought you were making the statement, at first, that he could survive w/e.

Regrowing a heart isn't that big of a feat, I'd say the car bomb he was in recently is more impressive. Both of which are less impressive than being reduced to just bone.

Yes I am aware of what he handled in the past, which is why I said I know what he's capable of. He has healed from nothing but bone in the past w/o outside help?

For the record I do not believe Wolverine's personality, etc was altered, only that some of his feats were more impressive, which happens with basically every character.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Um.. the beam HAS been stated ion panel as moving ast the speed of light. It's still more likely that Cyclops will see Tooth before he crosses that .5 k to get to cyclops. and the further away the harder it is to judge where cyclops is looking, and that's all he has to do to tag tooth.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Of course mindset, you could always wait for Jinzin to come in and answer the switched burden of proof challenge...

This is why Jinzin pwns.

I was aware of those healing feats though, the blood one he had his powers amped, I believe, and I don't remember him being reduced to bone by the reactor.