Originally posted by llagrok
You don't think that Scott can clear the area around him?Is Sabretooth going to "stealth" his way to Scott by using the small rocks and rivers found in forests? 😆
How many forests have you been too? 🤨
Small rocks? Or wishful thinking. I live in Colorado, the forests here are littered with big ass boulders.
Rivers provide a level change in the ground. It's pretty academic.
So Scott levels an area around him... and then what? Waits? To what? Outlive an immortal? 😬
Originally posted by jinzin
How many forests have you been too? 🤨Small rocks? Or wishful thinking. I live in Colorado, the forests here are littered with big ass boulders.
Rivers provide a level change in the ground. It's pretty academic.
So Scott levels an area around him... and then what? Waits? To what? Outlive an immortal? 😬
In case you never read any of the x-men comics, Cyclops CAN blast rocks as well.
Forests? I live in Norway, I know plenty of forests....
Originally posted by llagrok
In case you never read any of the x-men comics, Cyclops CAN blast rocks as well.Forests? I live in Norway, I know plenty of forests....
Never said that he couldn't Lag but it's nice to see you're still having no trouble trying to force arguments down my mouth that I never made.
It's this simple. On one hand you hae Cyclops who's been limited to the degree in which he can be effective in this fight.
Then we have Sabretooth who is in every way save skill Wolverine's superior.
Multiple examples of Wolverine being a threat to Cyclops.
Dodging his beams in open territory.
Closing ground on him.
Cyclops admitting that Wolverine's even more a threat to him than a guy like Colossus.
Moving faster than a guy who was moving faster than Cyclops could manage to register.
Moving faster than the eye can see multiples of times.
Sabretooth being faster than Wolverine.
Examples of Sabretooth dodging his beam.
Being hit by it and launching himself back at Cyclops pinning him to the ground.
Sabretooth standing up to the full blast of someone that had Cyk's power.
Sabretooth using his stealth and speed to the degree that he was able to track Logan blow out his lit match and disapear, then touch him and vanish again the whole time not being seen, smelled, or heard.
We have a natural environment with multiple spots to hide, set traps, and be stealthy.
And if it came down to it, only one of these guys has night vision.
But Sabretooth still loses.... typical...
Originally posted by brainchild81
Finds Sabes trying to hide behind some grass & shoots the shit out of him. Stealth is only good if you got great places to hide. Cyclops is a master tactician & will remove all of them. The Mod stopped the environment from being changed though
Sabretooth isn't a bad tactician himself, he's not going to hide in the most obvious place, and in all likelyhood wouldn't even be sitting still waiting for Cyk to find him.
When?
Originally posted by jinzin
Sabretooth isn't a bad tactician himself, he's not going to hide in the most obvious place, and in all likelyhood wouldn't even be sitting still waiting for Cyk to find him.When?
* i assume Cyke is not going to wait for Creed to attack him either... it is more likely and highly probable of Cyke blasting Creed first than Creed rushing close to Cyke... also, if and only if Creed managed to get close, Cyke is good on H2H also, find a way to clear a decent distance and fire... i believe the blasts travel - if not lightspeed - pretty close to it...🙂
Originally posted by yestinchongWoops...anyway, i've gone off the point. Cyke Vs. Sabes?
Two other instances that pop into my mind.....early X-Factor....Mutant Massacre....Cyke tags and "arguably" KOs Sabes while in the Morlock tunnels. It's debateable as Sabes gets up pretty quickly later. Eitehr way, he's tagged.
It happened in X-factor # 10. He did KO Creed. Creed did get up but he was still koed for a time
Originally posted by Placidity
This is how I see it.Wolverine fanboys hoping in to back Sabretooth.
Why?
Because its obligation. If Character X can beat Sabretooth, then by extension, in most circumstances, Character X would also beat Wolverine. And we can't have that now can we?
Now that you're all enlightened, I'm sure you'll notice this pattern in all the vs Sabretooth threads.
Truer word have never been spoken 😆
Jinzin, I read through your post and thought about the responses....
There are counters to nearly everything you said there. My point is....yes, there are many instances in the MU where Cyclops has missed an opponent, be it through his own aim, or the opponent's agility. But that's disregarding the many times he's tagged people MUCH faster as well. So a little balance needs to be kept here...
"Then we have Sabretooth who is in every way save skill Wolverine's superior".
Fair enough. I won't really argue too much about this. I didn't know he was actually more agile and faster than Logan, but i guess if he is, it's not so much that it grants a massive advantage over Wolverine.
"Multiple examples of Wolverine being a threat to Cyclops".
Which can easily be flipped and used the other way. Examples of Cyclops being a threat specifically to Logan are the fact that it has been shown on a number of occasions that an optic blast (when connecting), WILL stop Wolverine enough to get more hits in, or even KO him. For example, Enemy Of The State (yes, he was already taking hits but Cyke did cause Wolverine damage before Cap applied the finishing touch), being KO'd in the Savage Land as well as by a Brood infected Cyke (note, he KOs Colossus in this issue too). Being knocked off his feet afer Scott bounces a beam off Colossus in the Proteus Saga. Being KO'd by a sucker punch to the back of the head in the Danger Room. Then there's some much more contentious examples....when Rogue accidentally hits Logan with her absorbed blasts in Extreme X-Men, she practically KOs him as he hits a tree.....and recently, in New Avengers, Logan is left rather...umm...flayed and on his knees, as a Skrull lets rip on him. Sure, these people weren't Cyke (with regards to how he would use his powers in a fight), but the power itself should be the same. And in each case, Wolverine is hurt enough for him to be weakened and prone to a further hit.
"Dodging his beams in open territory".
Most definitely this has happened. Specifically, Wolverine Origins. But the flip side is that he has been tagged....if someone went back through EVERY Cyke/Wolvie encounter in comic form, i'd be curious to see if Scott hit more or of Logan dodges more. I'm guessing the former.
"Closing ground on him".
Sure...and Sabes did it too in In The Red Zone. One of them resulted in Scott potentially being killed (sans visor), the other resulted in Scott blasting Victor off before being hurt. And this only takes into account the fact that Sabes *has* actually managed to close ground. I've already posted instances where he has been hit *without* managing to do this.
"Cyclops admitting that Wolverine's even more a threat to him than a guy like Colossus".
And Cyclops has Wolverine's respect too. That issue in EOE where Scott goes gung-ho and Wolverine is surprised by this new attitude shows Wolverine's inner dialogue saying he'd trust Cyclops to lead him in any instance. Anyway, the comment is kind of relative....assuming that Wolverine *is* more of a threat to Cyclops than Colossus is, who's to say that it means Wolverine would win a fight? A 5 year old kid poses more of a threat to me in a fight than an infant. Doesn't mean i won't win. Bad example i know, but hopefully you see my point.
"Moving faster than a guy who was moving faster than Cyclops could manage to register.
Moving faster than the eye can see multiples of times.
Sabretooth being faster than Wolverine".
I've lumped these ones together because i think they roughly mean the same thing = that Wolverine/Sabes would be too fast for Scott to tag. Bizarrely enough, Cyclops has managed to hit the likes of many fast and agile characters in the MU...some faster than our feral pair, some not. Notable ones include Northstar, Quicksilver, Gambit, Beast, Angel/Archangel, Cannonball, Storm, Rogue....
So once again, it's not black and white that Wolverine or Sabertooth would necessarily be too fast for Scott to register them. The again, Scott has also *missed* a lot of people as well....so go figure.
"Examples of Sabretooth dodging his beam."
And i've given examples of him NOT dodging the beam, getting tagged.
"Being hit by it and launching himself back at Cyclops pinning him to the ground".
And i've also given examples of him being KO'd by it too.
"Sabretooth standing up to the full blast of someone that had Cyk's power".
I don't think i got who you were talking about there. To be honest, i do know what you mean. Cyke's blasts have been inconsistently portrayed in the comics....i'm not saying they are right or wrong, just a bit confusing at times. One moment he downs Apocalypse, breaches Onslaught's armour and shears the Blackbird in half....the next moment he can't KO Sauron or Caliban...ah well.
"Sabretooth using his stealth and speed to the degree that he was able to track Logan blow out his lit match and disapear, then touch him and vanish again the whole time not being seen, smelled, or heard".
That's kinda cool and i rate Sabes for that.
"We have a natural environment with multiple spots to hide, set traps, and be stealthy".
You already readdressed this point after you saw it was a plain battlefield. I can only say that if it was this environment, i think Scott would make sure he placed himself in as open an area as possible to reduce the chances of a surprise attack. Just like Sabes would try to use it to his advantage.
"And if it came down to it, only one of these guys has night vision".
Ooohhh...you know, after all these years of reading comics, i still don't know if Scott's visor permits him night vision. I'd like to think it does. I do know that he can withstand bright lights a lot better than most....in X-Factor Vol. 1, Prism blinds the team with his power, but Scott comments that he can see just fine. Anyway, it's entirely debatable if Cyclops has night vision.
"But Sabretooth still loses.... typical..."
Well....i didn't say this. In an open environment, i think he does lose...probably all of them, as i think the distance between them will allow Scott the first hit. And after that, it's curtains.
And if it was a forest like arena? Sabes will score points here....but my bias and opinion make me think that Scott can still get a good number of wins, diue to the fact that once Sabes is close enough to attack, Scott still has a chance to fire off a blast to hit him. In The red Zone illustrates this. Hmm....6-7/10 to Scott? I'll think about it....
Originally posted by yestinchong
Jinzin, I read through your post and thought about the responses....There are counters to nearly everything you said there. My point is....yes, there are many instances in the MU where Cyclops has missed an opponent, be it through his own aim, or the opponent's agility. But that's disregarding the many times he's tagged people MUCH faster as well. So a little balance needs to be kept here...
"Then we have Sabretooth who is in every way save skill Wolverine's superior".
Fair enough. I won't really argue too much about this. I didn't know he was actually more agile and faster than Logan, but i guess if he is, it's not so much that it grants a massive advantage over Wolverine.
"Multiple examples of Wolverine being a threat to Cyclops".
Which can easily be flipped and used the other way. Examples of Cyclops being a threat specifically to Logan are the fact that it has been shown on a number of occasions that an optic blast (when connecting), WILL stop Wolverine enough to get more hits in, or even KO him. For example, Enemy Of The State (yes, he was already taking hits but Cyke did cause Wolverine damage before Cap applied the finishing touch), being KO'd in the Savage Land as well as by a Brood infected Cyke (note, he KOs Colossus in this issue too). Being knocked off his feet afer Scott bounces a beam off Colossus in the Proteus Saga. Being KO'd by a sucker punch to the back of the head in the Danger Room. Then there's some much more contentious examples....when Rogue accidentally hits Logan with her absorbed blasts in Extreme X-Men, she practically KOs him as he hits a tree.....and recently, in New Avengers, Logan is left rather...umm...flayed and on his knees, as a Skrull lets rip on him. Sure, these people weren't Cyke (with regards to how he would use his powers in a fight), but the power itself should be the same. And in each case, Wolverine is hurt enough for him to be weakened and prone to a further hit.
"Dodging his beams in open territory".
Most definitely this has happened. Specifically, Wolverine Origins. But the flip side is that he has been tagged....if someone went back through EVERY Cyke/Wolvie encounter in comic form, i'd be curious to see if Scott hit more or of Logan dodges more. I'm guessing the former.
"Closing ground on him".
Sure...and Sabes did it too in In The Red Zone. One of them resulted in Scott potentially being killed (sans visor), the other resulted in Scott blasting Victor off before being hurt. And this only takes into account the fact that Sabes *has* actually managed to close ground. I've already posted instances where he has been hit *without* managing to do this.
"Cyclops admitting that Wolverine's even more a threat to him than a guy like Colossus".
And Cyclops has Wolverine's respect too. That issue in EOE where Scott goes gung-ho and Wolverine is surprised by this new attitude shows Wolverine's inner dialogue saying he'd trust Cyclops to lead him in any instance. Anyway, the comment is kind of relative....assuming that Wolverine *is* more of a threat to Cyclops than Colossus is, who's to say that it means Wolverine would win a fight? A 5 year old kid poses more of a threat to me in a fight than an infant. Doesn't mean i won't win. Bad example i know, but hopefully you see my point.
"Moving faster than a guy who was moving faster than Cyclops could manage to register.
Moving faster than the eye can see multiples of times.
Sabretooth being faster than Wolverine".I've lumped these ones together because i think they roughly mean the same thing = that Wolverine/Sabes would be too fast for Scott to tag. Bizarrely enough, Cyclops has managed to hit the likes of many fast and agile characters in the MU...some faster than our feral pair, some not. Notable ones include Northstar, Quicksilver, Gambit, Beast, Angel/Archangel, Cannonball, Storm, Rogue....
So once again, it's not black and white that Wolverine or Sabertooth would necessarily be too fast for Scott to register them. The again, Scott has also *missed* a lot of people as well....so go figure.
"Examples of Sabretooth dodging his beam."
And i've given examples of him NOT dodging the beam, getting tagged.
"Being hit by it and launching himself back at Cyclops pinning him to the ground".
And i've also given examples of him being KO'd by it too.
"Sabretooth standing up to the full blast of someone that had Cyk's power".
I don't think i got who you were talking about there. To be honest, i do know what you mean. Cyke's blasts have been inconsistently portrayed in the comics....i'm not saying they are right or wrong, just a bit confusing at times. One moment he downs Apocalypse, breaches Onslaught's armour and shears the Blackbird in half....the next moment he can't KO Sauron or Caliban...ah well.
"Sabretooth using his stealth and speed to the degree that he was able to track Logan blow out his lit match and disapear, then touch him and vanish again the whole time not being seen, smelled, or heard".
That's kinda cool and i rate Sabes for that.
"We have a natural environment with multiple spots to hide, set traps, and be stealthy".
You already readdressed this point after you saw it was a plain battlefield. I can only say that if it was this environment, i think Scott would make sure he placed himself in as open an area as possible to reduce the chances of a surprise attack. Just like Sabes would try to use it to his advantage.
"And if it came down to it, only one of these guys has night vision".
Ooohhh...you know, after all these years of reading comics, i still don't know if Scott's visor permits him night vision. I'd like to think it does. I do know that he can withstand bright lights a lot better than most....in X-Factor Vol. 1, Prism blinds the team with his power, but Scott comments that he can see just fine. Anyway, it's entirely debatable if Cyclops has night vision.
"But Sabretooth still loses.... typical..."
Well....i didn't say this. In an open environment, i think he does lose...probably all of them, as i think the distance between them will allow Scott the first hit. And after that, it's curtains.
And if it was a forest like arena? Sabes will score points here....but my bias and opinion make me think that Scott can still get a good number of wins, diue to the fact that once Sabes is close enough to attack, Scott still has a chance to fire off a blast to hit him. In The red Zone illustrates this. Hmm....6-7/10 to Scott? I'll think about it....
👆
i still say red zone helps the scott argument more than the sabertooth one...
Originally posted by yestinchong
Jinzin, I read through your post and thought about the responses....
There are counters to nearly everything you said there. My point is....yes, there are many instances in the MU where Cyclops has missed an opponent, be it through his own aim, or the opponent's agility. But that's disregarding the many times he's tagged people MUCH faster as well. So a little balance needs to be kept here...
Originally posted by yestinchongHe is. It's been repeatedily stated on panel. The only reasons why it doesn't appear to grant him a massive advantage in fights with Wolverine is due to one of three things.
Fair enough. I won't really argue too much about this. I didn't know he was actually more agile and faster than Logan, but i guess if he is, it's not so much that it grants a massive advantage over Wolverine.
However, don't forget that Wolverine has admitted a number of times that Sabretooth has repeatidly owned him in off panel fights as well as admitted the superiority that Sabretooth has over himself.
Originally posted by yestinchong
Which can easily be flipped and used the other way. Examples of Cyclops being a threat specifically to Logan are the fact that it has been shown on a number of occasions that an optic blast (when connecting), WILL stop Wolverine enough to get more hits in, or even KO him. For example, Enemy Of The State (yes, he was already taking hits but Cyke did cause Wolverine damage before Cap applied the finishing touch), .
Bad example, Not only is Wolverine mind controlled and fighting it, Wolverine had ALSO been at the forefront of a blackbird crashlanding, half frozen by storm, and Cyk blindsided him with an area wide blast.
None of those would factor into a legit fight between the two with Cyk limited to straight beams.
Originally posted by yestinchong
being KO'd in the Savage Land
Originally posted by yestinchong
as well as by a Brood infected Cyke (note, he KOs Colossus in this issue too).
Originally posted by yestinchong
Being knocked off his feet afer Scott bounces a beam off Colossus in the Proteus Saga.
Originally posted by yestinchong"sucker punch" "back of the head" 😐
Being KO'd by a sucker punch to the back of the head in the Danger Room.
Originally posted by yestinchongDon't remember this off the top of my head either so I can't comment. Issue number?
Then there's some much more contentious examples....when Rogue accidentally hits Logan with her absorbed blasts in Extreme X-Men, she practically KOs him as he hits a tree
Originally posted by yestinchongThat was a practical super skrull... 😐 It also burned the living shit of Logan and set flame to the top of the building. Not sure if that even IS comparible. 😬
.....and recently, in New Avengers, Logan is left rather...umm...flayed and on his knees, as a Skrull lets rip on him.
Originally posted by yestinchongEach case , from the ones I can remember, are horribly skewed examples that do little to show what Wolverine is or isn't capible of in a legit fight between the two. Of course classic Wolverine would get KOed by Cyk being blasted in the back of the head. No one's arguing that, but that wouldn't really represent anything being discussed here.
.....Sure, these people weren't Cyke (with regards to how he would use his powers in a fight), but the power itself should be the same. And in each case, Wolverine is hurt enough for him to be weakened and prone to a further hit.
Originally posted by yestinchong
Most definitely this has happened. Specifically, Wolverine Origins. But the flip side is that he has been tagged....if someone went back through EVERY Cyke/Wolvie encounter in comic form, i'd be curious to see if Scott hit more or of Logan dodges more. I'm guessing the former.
Originally posted by yestinchong
Sure...and Sabes did it too in In The Red Zone. One of them resulted in Scott potentially being killed (sans visor), the other resulted in Scott blasting Victor off before being hurt. And this only takes into account the fact that Sabes *has* actually managed to close ground. I've already posted instances where he has been hit *without* managing to do this.
I'll have to go back and check but I'm almost positive that Creed had Scott semi-dead to rights, but started talkin it up, he does that.
Originally posted by yestinchong
And Cyclops has Wolverine's respect too. That issue in EOE where Scott goes gung-ho and Wolverine is surprised by this new attitude shows Wolverine's inner dialogue saying he'd trust Cyclops to lead him in any instance. Anyway, the comment is kind of relative....assuming that Wolverine *is* more of a threat to Cyclops than Colossus is, who's to say that it means Wolverine would win a fight? A 5 year old kid poses more of a threat to me in a fight than an infant. Doesn't mean i won't win. Bad example i know, but hopefully you see my point.
Originally posted by yestinchong
I've lumped these ones together because i think they roughly mean the same thing = that Wolverine/Sabes would be too fast for Scott to tag. Bizarrely enough, Cyclops has managed to hit the likes of many fast and agile characters in the MU...some faster than our feral pair, some not. Notable ones include Northstar, Quicksilver, Gambit, Beast, Angel/Archangel, Cannonball, Storm, Rogue....
Originally posted by yestinchong
And i've given examples of him NOT dodging the beam, getting tagged.
The two times Sabretooth tried to focus his attention on Cyclops he had him dead to rights. 😬
Originally posted by yestinchong
And i've also given examples of him being KO'd by it too.
Blasted by magma full force (enough to disintigrate his metal restraints into debris while puncturing a large whole inside the metal chamber he was in), fought Psylocke h2h, fought Caliban, fought Iceman and Cyk, Beast, Archangel, Beast, Jean Grey, Cyclops again, and Beast again.
It's safe to assume he was probably a bit worn. Not to mention the fact that this was before his Apocalypse upgraded healing factor, and his Weapon X upgrade to healing factor, strength, and durability. 😬
Originally posted by yestinchong
I don't think i got who you were talking about there. To be honest, i do know what you mean. Cyke's blasts have been inconsistently portrayed in the comics....i'm not saying they are right or wrong, just a bit confusing at times. One moment he downs Apocalypse, breaches Onslaught's armour and shears the Blackbird in half....the next moment he can't KO Sauron or Caliban...ah well.
Originally posted by yestinchongWell, I don't think for one moment that one blast means curtains for tooth. The guy took several blasts from Cyclops while having been already put through a variable X-gauntlet and still got up. The first full on blast that Scott landed on Sabretooth did nothing more than enrage Sabretooth as the narrative would have me believe.
Well....i didn't say this. In an open environment, i think he does lose...probably all of them, as i think the distance between them will allow Scott the first hit. And after that, it's curtains.And if it was a forest like arena? Sabes will score points here....but my bias and opinion make me think that Scott can still get a good number of wins, diue to the fact that once Sabes is close enough to attack, Scott still has a chance to fire off a blast to hit him. In The red Zone illustrates this. Hmm....6-7/10 to Scott? I'll think about it....
The only thing Red Zone illustrates in that regard is that Sabes is affected by his "play with the prey" trashtalkin CIS enough to still get tagged if he does get into slicin and dicin range for Scott, it doesn't illustrate that Scott's fast enough to beam his ass in such a range if he's going for the kill though.
Above everything else though I'd like to thank you.
You may have admitted slight bias, but you're regard to on panel feats and general fairness to both sides is most admirable and it's DEFINITELY a great and refreshing change from the nonsense I've been getting accustomed to here for the last few months. I for one am glad to have you here on KMC. Cheers.
Originally posted by Raoul
👆i still say red zone helps the scott argument more than the sabertooth one...
Not really.
If all we had to go off of concerning who would win between the two the conclusions we would draw from In the Red Zone are definitely not pro-Cyclops material.
Sabretooth had a weaker healing factor by some noticeable amount (upgraded twice since), was a bit less durable and had been put through the wringer after running for 5 hours since his escape.
Sabretooth was able to dodge Cyclops' blast with his back near turned to Scott while fighting Iceman and did it again to close ground drawing Cyk dead to rights.
Later Sabretooth had fought Beast to a knock out and got blasted by Cyclops with a standard beam, the effect was nothing more than a successful enraging of Creed.
Then, Cyclops hits Sabretooth a bit later who just had his leg broken by Jeans TK, Sabretooth bounces right back pinning Cyclops to the ground.
Scott uses the distraction of a copter as well as Creeds momentary trash talk to hit him straight in the face. Creed once again brushes that off and engages Beast in combat once more.
Finally after a fall from a high rise building, he takes one more shot, focused beam with the force of a bullet straight to the forehead... He STILL tries to squirm up before being shot with machine gun fire from surrounding police to which he survives for a few moments conscious still.... 😬
Scott never put Creed down in that comic save once at the very end of a very long and hard fought battle on Creeds behalf and even that was momentary. This combined with Creeds performance when focused on Scott doesn't say anything good about what Cyk could do in a battle with Sabes.. It CERTAINLY does not hurt the Sabretooth argument here.
How could wolverine or creed possible dodge Cyclops' optic blast. Unless they can move so fast that youcan't even see them it should not be possible. Cyclops' optic blast is aimed just by him looking at you, there isn't a sight, or a secondary optic targeting system, it's just the dude looking at you. How can you dodge someone looking at you unless you posses the abilities such as those possessed by Nightcrawler or Northstar?
Originally posted by KharmaDogThey can for brief periods of time.
How could wolverine or creed possible dodge Cyclops' optic blast. Unless they can move so fast that youcan't even see them it should not be possible.
But part of that trick is moving faster than the brain can process them moving rather than moving faster than the eye can actually see the person.